YouTube Profiles Quality Control Discussion 2 (STAFF ONLY)

[Sera_EX]

Isn't the only Pewdiepie profile we have from a video game? As with AVGN Adventures, that should be perfectly fine. My issue would be AVGN in general getting a file just because he runs a series with a name and refers to past events and because of that borderline continuity and the sizeable audience, that passes for "OK". It doesn't.

 

[Andytrenom]

Apparently there's more to it but that's just what I've heard. I am really only a casual AVGN viewer, so don't know all the intricacies of the channel very well

 

[Sera_EX]

@Yobo

The very basis behind what you are referring to as "pseudo-intellectual elitism" is simply accepting a scientific fact above everything else. That's not actually a bad thing and isn't really pseudo-intellectual.

The only pseudo-intellectual problem VSBW has involves the abuse of pseudoscience or philosophical ideas like "platonic concepts" to validate a fictional argument.

Having objective standards of quality doesn't make you an elitist just like having objective standards of beauty doesn't make you an elitist.

 

[Andytrenom]

@Sera He is complaining about just seeing something as jokes and disallowing profiles for that reason tho, that isn't really any objective standard or accepting scientific facts

 

[Yobo_Blue]

I fail to see a scientific fact in accepting things based on how they make us look rather than actual logic.

 

[Sera_EX]

He called "seeing something as a joke" pseudo-intellectual? That doesn't even make sense....

And, how is not wanting to be seen a complete joke a bad thing? How is that elitism? Anti-elitism is the worst kind of elitism. I mean, we don't allow outright **** for the same reason (well, and the whole age-restriction part). Image is important. I'm sorry if you have to be a bureaucrat for 5 years to understand that.

If we were truly elitst, we wouldn't even allow MS Paint Adventures or any web series in general. Just movies, comics, anime/manga, and novels.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Good thing I'm not arguing that we are elitist. I'm pointing out that sort of standard makes us look elitist. Which is, as you said, bad because image is important (apparently)

 

[Yobo_Blue]

Seeing something as a joke is not a objective scientific fact by any stretch of the term, and disallowing profiles over the issue of it is worse for our image than anything else.

Since Ant seems to be afraid that blue users will only destroy logical discussion, that's all I'm saying right now.

And yes Andy I did use the edit button already

 

[Andytrenom]

Yobo, please try to use the edit button

 

[Sera_EX]

The files aren't being disallowed due to it being "seen" as a joke. If it's a borderline joke profile, like 1-C AVGN, it's a joke profile. Not because it's AVGN or a Youtube file, but because it's a massive highly exaggerated outlier from a satirical personality that lacks logical consistency. These types of characters are indeed primarily found on Youtube and even some TV shows/cartoons are guilty of this.

Also, go easy on Ant please. He's not saying "NO BLUE NAMES ALLOWED", he's just saying that if we made the thread all-public accessible it'd be overrun in a day.

 

[Sera_EX]

Okay. I just reread the first part of the thread. Let me give an example here, it may also illustrate Dargoo's point.

You know me as "Sera EX". Let's say my real name was "Sera Conner" and Sera EX is a VSBW personality. The only difference between Sera Conner and Sera EX is that EX is "technically", by the most basic of basic definitions, an "original fictional character", since it's a fictitious persona adopted by Sera Conner to review vs debates.

So far we've established that Sera Conner is the real person and Sera EX is the persona reviewing vs debates.

Now Sera EX runs a miniseries for x-amount of episodes called "Sera vs. the World" in which Sera EX fights the various characters in the fights she reviewed. Now, ignoring the fact that she's fighting already established characters and the power scaling inconsistency that would come from that, would you say Sera EX deserves a profile? She fits the bill of "fictional character" since she's just a persona, and also comes from a series with technical (really just borderline) continuity and canon?

The answer is no. Why? Because she's just Sera EX the reviewer...who is literally just Sera Conner reviewing vs debates... fighting characters in a web series...about Sera EX reviewing vs debates...who is literally just a persona of Sera Conner, and it goes on and on. It's a persona that lacks the logical consistency (things like backstory, lore, alternative setting, etc.) of being an actual character to denote that it's permissible.

That's nowhere near comparable to something like SCP.

As Dargoo said, this had been made far more complicated than it's supposed to be. I'm guessing we need to have a talk about "What is a character"? And the difference between a character and a persona, as well as the fact that "continual nonsense", is still nonsense.

There is a reason we don't allow profiles for Cereal mascots based off the commercials, no matter if the commercial has continuity and features a fictional character. Yes continuity is very important, I may even say the bedrock of a fictional universe, but we have to remember the initial differences between a character like Monkey D. Luffy and Tony the Tiger.

"I can tell I'm in the minority here on trying to keep a lid on the amount of gag collections, fanfiction, and meme profiles we let slip onto the site, but don't try and critique me for explaining how I think these profiles are a determent to the site as a whole. Trying to discount these profiles by our own flawed regulations has historically failed. We need new regulations, which is what I'm arguing."- Dargoo Faust

Again, veteran opinion should not be dismissed as elitist or pseudo-intellectual, especially when it's based on the wikia's own history. We need new standards, that's what we need to discuss, lest our fandom be reduced to a meme.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sera Conner, are you gonna review the new Terminator movie? ovo

 

[Sera_EX]

Ew, I heard that filmed sucked...

 

[VenomElite]

Please tell me people know the difference between a character and a persona...

 

[Sera_EX]

ÔÇÿParently not. I think that's the source of our issues, our regulations were never truly defined because at first they didn't need to be, people were only interested in popular works. Now, years later, that's changed because our interests have broadened.

 

[Sera_EX]

Staff Only

Ven is ex-staff

 

[Crabwhale]

Sera Conner, are you gonna review the new Terminator movie? ovo

I read that in an Arnie voice and now I can't get it out of my head ****

 

[Antvasima]

I strongly agree with Sera. She makes good sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, go easy on Ant please. He's not saying "NO BLUE NAMES ALLOWED", he's just saying that if we made the thread all-public accessible it'd be overrun in a day.

That is correct, yes. My experience regarding these matters in general, and this issue itself based on the previous thread, is that it is safer to keep potentially chaotic topics restricted to highly trusted members to keep them more goal-focused, easily manageable, and under control.

 

[Andytrenom]

My opinion on persona vs character is what I said before, with a few minor tinkering

• playing a vital role within a fictional plot,

• not having the same level of interaction and lack of fourth wall between you and the audience as the real life person,

• having a past and a present which, whether fully fleshed out or not, are elements of a fictional plot rather than references to the youtuber's own experiences

Now these are all points I came up with for the Who killed Markilpier stuff specifically so there's a good chance they may not apply very well when discussing other characters, I'll admit that

 

[Sera_EX]

Well as I said, I'd love to help you there but I don't know anything about Markilpier. :<

 

[Andytrenom]

I'll Try to broaden the scope from just explaining Mark's validity..

I guess playing a vital role may not be necessary but excluding that, the basic idea of a character as far as I understand is that they serve one of many defined roles within a fictional plot and are integrated into a fictional setting. That seems like it would be a good thing to keep in mind when trying to identify a character from persona,

Them having a backstory and a present life situation as pieces of a fictional narrative I also think serve well enough as a sign of being a character

The second point I believe is the most important, since a persona can interact with the audience at functionally the same level as a normal personality, and there isn't really a defined "fourth wall" between the persona and viewer. That's seldom the case for normal characters and even if there are interactions that would generally just come down to a metafictional element

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Do you have suggestions for how to better define our regulations?

 

[Sera_EX]

It's almost midnight and I need to go to sleep, so I'll have to get to that tomorrow (or whenever I wake up).

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

@Sera, just to point out, AVGN being Low 1-C isn't quite a joke, but it comes from a legit character whom he fights and defeats at the end of AVGN Adventures II. And first appears in the movie. This is his description directly from movie.

Death Mwauthzyx is a Cyber-Mutant Death God, who lives under Mount Fuji. He is the creator of both God and Satan. Death Mwauthzyx has the power to end all life as we know it. With a single 360 degree turn of the satellite dish on top of his head, every universe in the multiverse will disappear. The ultraverse and the megaverse will collapse. The six dimensions will flatten into one, and all existence will be obliterated. The only thing left will be a scaleless bologna sandwich.

And it's not so much a joke/outlier, but rather that he required a power up exclusive to AVGN Adventures II in order to defeat him; and is a very specific key. And I could understand that 6-dimensional alone isn't going to be enough statement for Tier 1 rating, but using it in the same paragraph as "Megaverse" hints this. And all Universes being erased would be 2-C at bare minimum. Also, I think it might be better to wait a bit given a new episode of AVGN is coming out today. And it involves the villain Fred Fuchs (Last name pronounced "*****") making a live action appearance. I'd like to watch it before given an input as it appears it would likely give us something.

Again, I'm fine if you're unsure of his main series version staying; but it's still agreed AVGN Adventures video game incarnation is perfectly fine to stay. That being said, he more than just a YouTube persona, but an actual character. And the same guy also plays other characters in other works such as Board James and BS Man. Though, he decided not to make a profile for the latter given his inappropriate name and appearance.

Edit: Also, Yobo messaged me on wall. And he wasn't accusing anyone of being elitists, he was just pointing out that not allowing those verse pages sort of makes us come out as elitists solely because it's a series about a game or movie reviewer makes us look like elitists.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yare Yare. Back for my daily post here.

@Sera Your posts honestly give me more hope in the site. Thanks very much for commenting.

@Andy

snip You barely made any points to begin with. You were baiting another discussion in order to play ball in your own court. I wasn't saying you were being overly philosophical (although you seem to have focused on that word like crazy) in that post, I'm saying the discussion you were beginning would be one. I know this from experience, and I can already tell you're beginning the discussion covertly while I attempt to avoid it. And yeah, I'm not directly addressing some stuff. Because directly addressing them is historically what got us here. So, yeah. No. Suggesting that being modeled after a youtube personality is enough reason to be forbidden all the while ignoring the greater details of the actual work and how the personalities are utilized within it is just an utterly prejudiced way of analyzing profiles You're utilizing linguistics and wordplay to misrepresent what I'm trying to say. I'm not saying "being modeled after a YouTube personality" is the only reason these profiles should go, although it's certainly one of the big ones. "Utterly prejudiced". What interesting wording. It has a negative connotation, but I can't say I don't have a vendetta against this trash having a place on the site. Honestly, the loose veneer of a plot and story that review series can wear isn't some kind of snotty "higher art" and I'm just "ignoring the important stuff". To quote you, "No". You're cherrypicking stuff you want from the verse while hand-waving stuff that we don't want on the site (personas, elements from other verses, gag collections). Would we disqualify a movie if it features an actor playing himself but is about him fighting monsters and supernatural beings with sci fi weapons? If the answer to that is yes, then I guess this argument could work but if it's no then I don't think it makes any sense Yes, if the actor is playing themselves, even in a fantastical setting, it shouldn't be allowed. That's literally what we made these rules to avoid. "Who would wins" between real, living people. You honestly see no issue with this? What, you're honestly okay with a "Bill Murray (Zombieland)" profile? Think about what? That someone made a meme matchup in a vs thread instead of a fun and games thread? Yeah that's not anything remarkable at all and I'm actually dumbfounded that you mentioned this as a legitimate point The fact that you have no concept of how Pepe the Frog fighting a Markiplier clone on our site unironically makes me question who's ignoring what in this conversation. Those are two actual profiles in a legitimate thread under our flawed rules. Our rules allow meme matchups to be outside of F&G. That's what I wanted you to think about. I care how our site looks. Sorry for not wanting us to be a laughing stock. And yes, being heavily tied to Markiplier in that way absolutely does not mean they are just "Rule skirting shenanigans", not that calling something a rule skirting shenanigan is a worthwhile argument in the first place You're going full circle with this argument. And throwing some strawmen my way, too. Oh dear. Summarizing my arguments as "rule-skirting shenanigans" is misleading. They, as you said earlier in the thread, abide only through technicality. They contain elements from other verses, they have collections of gags and an incoherent plot much of the time, they have personas being personas, it's just being carefully phrased to exclude these undesireable elements by holdouts here. And on the matter of logical consistency, the who killed Markiplier stuff really doesn't go against that, the only thing you can argue is that it's vague and maybe a bit confusing but apart from that it's no different than any other story with plot, characters and a fictional world even if it's modelled after a popular youtube personality I thought it was clear. It's a story about a major youtube personality, with characters played by the major youtube personality. Come on, this isn't rocket science. It's this kind of pseudo-intellectual discussion that's making these things an issue to begin with. idea that superficial details like "being a Markipilier profile, being a pewdiedpie profile" Which is exactly what we made the original rules for, go figure.

Edit: Also, Yobo messaged me on wall. And he wasn't accusing anyone of being elitists, he was just pointing out that not allowing those verse pages sort of makes us come out as elitists solely because it's a series about a game or movie reviewer makes us look like elitists.

No, they make us look like people who have a site dedicated to fanworks and original characters that these profiles HAVE and SHOULD BE posted on. A site dedicated to "haha funny" meme profiles of personas and gag collections.

And by that logic we're already "elitists". Oh, the tyranny of us not wanting gag, meme, and fanwork, and **** profiles on our wiki. The goshdarn horror of it.

Excuse the sarcasm. I'm honestly sick and tired of my POV being misrepresented here. Yeah: I don't like these verses here because they're jokes and makes our site's reputation even more of a joke than it already is. That's not my main argument, because I know it doesn't go anywhere. I'll comment that because it's honestly what I think and I'm not ashamed of it, even if it doesn't win me any internet debates.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, for what it is worth, I, Sera, and Promestein largely seem to agree with your sentiments.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Dargoo

No problem. I'm honestly tired to death of this topic being ran into the ground and think it's time to put it to rest for good.

 

[Sera_EX]

@DDM

I'm perfectly fine the AVGN Adventures counterpart staying because is it comes from a video game. As much as I love the AVGN reviews (because it's like relieving my childhood with most of those same crappy games), there's little to no narrative structure behind review series or web series based on an internet persona. Lack of narrative structure makes it nearly impossible to properly judge feats and leads to disgustingly misleading results. We already have that problem with files that come from verses with an actual story. Case in point, Dragon Ball and Pokémon CRTS just to name the most infamous.

I'm not saying you need some in depth story to be allowed here, I've said before that's not a requirement, nor is being combat oriented or "only characters that fight" should be allowed. All that jazz. However, if we don't allow Suggsverse because it's an inconsistent, incompatible nightmare with our standards, some (not all) of these YT verses should be treated with the same skepticism.

 

[Antvasima]

I still agree with Sera.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

I want to bring up the point that a rule against characters with meme status should not be implemented. You want to know what was an award winning movie, praised for its storytelling and animation at the time? Shrek. You can't predict what will or won't become a meme. Hell, if Pepe the Frog wasn't a meme, I'm sure you wouldn't bat an eye about his profile. I agree with Sera, consistency and coherence takes precedent over meme status.

As for personas, I'm ok with them as long as they're a caricature of thier real life coubterpart. A character like Shaq from Shaq-Fu is nowhere close to being the basketball legend he is in real life.

 

[Antvasima]

As far as I understand, the issue is more with characters that are almost only memes, not popular legitimate characters that have been used as memes, such as Shrek.

As for Pepe, he has probably turned too controversial for our wiki, but that is not due to the original character.

 

[Andytrenom]

>You barely made...so yeah

All I'm observing here is you making presumptions on my part and stating them as fact, and excusing yourself from having to address my points while shifting the blame to something else. This type of behavior i frankly do not respect at all

>You're utilizing....big ones

I'm not misrepresenting anything, you literally proposed "let's not allow any profile fashioned after major youtuber personalities" and prefaced it with "here's my solution", this doesn't give the impression that you're only talking about one of many reasons for why a profile should go, this comes off as you coming to a conclusion that a forbidding profiles for this specific reason is a good solution

If you make it sound like you want a rule along the lines of "characters fashioned after fashioned after big youtuber personalities shouldn't be allowed" then don't complain about me thinking that's exactly what you meant

>Utterly Prejudiced...gag collections)

You are bringing up surface level details and presenting them as solid reasons to disqualify something , that absolutely comes off as prejudice, whether you like the negative connotation or not doesn't matter, the word fits perfectly in this situation.

And you bringing up review series is something I've no clue whatsoever why you're doing. I haven't tried to debate review series with you at all, the topic was on Markiplier and you're just bringing up irrelevant things here

>Yes...profile?

This is your only point I can see merit in. However I would like to see some outside opinions on this

>The fact that...laughing stock

If you consider the vs forum to be a place that maintains a good image of our site overall, then the youtuber profiles are the least of your worries, this is a non serious part of our site filled with lazy debates and utter shitposting as a common occurance. There being meme matches in vs forum has never been a huge issue and forgive me for bring skeptical about youtubers fight being abomination that crosses a line when it comes to our shenanigans in this forum and which destroys our reputation more than other threads can

>You're going full circle...is misleading

You literally responded to me saying "more than rule skirting shenanigans" with "played by mark, in a show about mark, directed by mark"

You were refuting my statement about being a rule skirting shenanigan with these points so of course I would talk about whether these specific points actually make the profiles rule skirting shenanigans or not, what else would you expect? and I don't understand where you see the strawman

>They as you said....holdouts here

Wow this is rich, first you say I'm strawmanning then immediately afterwards you proceed to put words in my mouth. Where did I say that Markiplier profiles only abide by technicality? I think they are allowable just under normal circumstances. And where are you even getting all the stuff about having stuff from other verses and having incoherent plots? Are we even talking about the same thing right now?

>I thought it was clear...to begin with

Being a story about that doesn't stop WKM and its direct expansions from having a purely fictional plot clearly separated from reality.

And "pseudo-intellectual discussions"? I don't care what negative adjective you want to assign to me talking, if I have something to say I'll say it, apologies if that's too much of a bother for you

>Which...go figure

Seems like too small of a point to bother replying to

 

[Andytrenom]

Sorry, I really had to reply to those points. They were bothering me too much.

I do think discussing how to strengthen our regulations would be more productive than focusing on individual verses however. Dargoo can reply to me about the Markiplier stuff in my wall if he wants, i'll try to not to clog the thread further with this

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I would appreciate if everybody involved try to not get upset at each other over this.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'll reiterate for the tenth time that "having a purely fictional story" doesn't matter. Fanfiction also has a purely fictional story. Nukige-oriented visual novels do as well, and we do not and should not ever allow those. The former can be abused by the fandom to create internal chaos, while the latter has too many issues to list. While the content of a story doesn't matter, its composition does. That's how we judge feats, the very core basis; the foundation of our vs indexing rhetoric.

Also, "meme status" =/= meme. Reinhard's become somewhat of a meme status, as does BB and Lucemon, but they are fully fleshed out fictional characters. They have meme status because of how they were used by our fandom in vs forums due to how hax/op they are. They are not to be put in the same boat as something like the Trollface, a literal meme.

 

[Andytrenom]

Yeah, there can be problems to a verse not solved by being fictional and having a plot. That much is obvious, it doesn't exactly mean these two things are irrelevant tho

 

[Andytrenom]

I looked over the editing rules again, and when it comes to persona vs character I feel they already do a good job of explaining the distinction

"Stage personas, such as YouTube and TV show hosts, tend to lack a 4th wall between them and the audience, and are not explicitly fictional in nature, as part of an actual story with a plot, regardless of special effects. They are real people who are affecting a behavioural change/acting out of character relative to their true personalities, but the setting is otherwise unchanged from reality and not fictional in nature. Characters are separate from the real actors portraying them, and are not just variations of themselves."

Does anyone see any kind of improvement or expansion that needs to be made?

 

[Sera_EX]

This brings us back to AVGN, who is a stage persona used by James Rolfe to review video games. Yes, there's Board James and the BS Man, but those two are just extensions of James Rolfe. The Nerd even has the same "backstory" as James. They are the same person, just the Nerd is a satirical exaggeration of James for entertainment purposes. So yes, Low 1-C James Rolfe is a meme. As for Low 1-C AVGN game character version, that is completely acceptable. Same goes for game Pewdiepie.