Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #41
Bump
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Youkai Physiology Additions + Type 4 Acausality, Apparently?? (Touhou)
- Thread starter Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
- Start date
-
- Tags
- touhou project
- Status
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #42
Bump
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #44
Thanks for the evaluation. Since these are somewhat major additions, should we wait for more staff input?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #46
I would prefer not to wait, so I'm wondering if I'd even be allowed to apply the edits since IIRC we usually require two or more staff approvals for threads to get accepted.
- 1,050
- 491
Don't really care about the rest, but this?
And no, a space having "different particles" doesn't mean it is "built upon different laws". For example, a realm can contain nothing but tachyons in a setting, but that doesn't mean the realm has intrinsically different physical laws or anything like that.
Merely existing in a space with a different timeflow is not at all prove of acausality. I'm pretty sure that "existing in a different timeflow" hasn't been proof of anything character indexing wise by itself, for similar reasons that "moving in a void" doesn't grant "infinite speed" anymore, or "moving in a higher dimension" doesn't grant instant tier 2/1 status.
And no, a space having "different particles" doesn't mean it is "built upon different laws". For example, a realm can contain nothing but tachyons in a setting, but that doesn't mean the realm has intrinsically different physical laws or anything like that.
Being "unaffected by altered flows of time or causality" is no more than Time/Causality Manipulation Resistance by itself. There's nothing "innate" to the character's very existences being presented in these feats, in contrast to some character being unaffected by a time paradox or being directly stated to be "beyond cause and effect".
I'd like to say that your tentative approval is rather premature, as we've historically had significantly stricter standards for "acausality" than just "not being affected by a space's weird timeflow". When I look at the "acausality" page, I don't see how the feats currently presented match up to that on any level.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #48
I literally listed DMC earlier in the thread as an example of all of this being good enough for acausality. And there's a currently (mostly accepted) CRT about Sonic getting type 4 acausality using the exact same logic. I could probably find more examples if I really wanted to, but the point is, this line of reasoning is acceptable to use for type 4 acausality. If you don't like it, you're more than welcome to change the system we use or downgrade the characters and verses I mentioned.
The timeless void/higher dimension examples are disingenuous too. The point of altered flows of time or cause/effect is that they actively impede what you should normally be capable of doing. Altered flows of time would make it so your movements are unnaturally fast, slow, or even stopped altogether. Altered flows of causlity would make even simple actions (eg; I drop a ball, causing it to fall to the ground) to become warped or illogical. To ignore the effects of these things as consistently as Touhou characters do, regardless of the specifics of the causality/time manip in question, would suggest being unbound by those sorts of things entirely, which is type 4 (in addition to working off of a different flow of time regardless). But compare this again to voids or higher dimensions, neither of which inherently possess qualities which would impede one's actions; Nobody gains abilities by virtue of existing there because there's nothing special they even need in order to exist there in the first place.
Also, acausality literally is resistance to causality manipulation. Type 4's description even directly mentions how it grants resistance to causality manipulation. Stop acting like they're two very different things when they're treated as more or less the same by our current system.
If you really need evidence of Gensokyo having different particles tangibly affecting its laws of physics, here's a pretty clear confirmation of that. It's blatantly canon that changing the particles of a world in Touhou changes its physical laws. Even then, there's literally an entire branch of physics dedicated to the study of particles and their relation to the laws of physics so like. Where are you getting the idea that they're disconnected when they've been connected for decades now?
- 15,592
- 22,892
The OP’s proposals seem fine.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #50
Nice. Should I continue discussing this with Mal out of courtesy, or can I go ahead with the edits?
On that note, I should probably add a note to the type 4 acausality justifications mentioning that Gensokyo refers to everything encompassed by the Hakurei Barrier and not just the physical space of Gensokyo. How would I add a note in the form of a reference, or something similar to that?
On that note, I should probably add a note to the type 4 acausality justifications mentioning that Gensokyo refers to everything encompassed by the Hakurei Barrier and not just the physical space of Gensokyo. How would I add a note in the form of a reference, or something similar to that?
- 1,050
- 491
Touhou isn't DMC or Sonic the Hedgehog, and being able to "move naturally in a space with frozen time" is not the same as being able to move naturally in a space where "time and space act erratically" (Sonic) or in a space with a strange and erratic timeflow whilst also operating under different "laws" than in the "human world" (Devil May Cry).
Yeah, no. By this reasoning, anyone who can remain unaffected by a timestop is also "acausal", since "time includes causality too". But we don't do that. We just give that time manipulation resistance, because that's all that is.
To "ignore altered flows of time/causality consistently" simply means they have a relatively high level of time/causality manipulation resistance.
Has anything other than the Touhou characters themselves been depicted as being particularly "warped" or made "illogical" by the weird time affects of Eientei, Avici, or Higan?
Acausality and causality manipulation resistance aren't the same thing, and this wiki/forum doesn't treat them as such. Resisting causality manipulation is simply resistance to a hax. Acausality is an existential state. That's why the requirements for any type of acausality are in reference to a character's essential state of being, and the requirements for resistance to something aren't. Type 4 acausality itself "gives off" far more than "causality manipulation resistance", yet none of the other powers listed as things type 4 acausality would resisted are depicted as failing on 2hu characters, be they fate manipulation, precognition, or "among others".
Stop trying to equivocate these two things. Even though their differences might be subtle, they're still there.
Your "evidence" being little more than poetry from Renko, a person who, even ignoring the "poetry" bit, is merely a student at a university, one that hasn't even graduated yet, and therefore has no reason in particular to be treated as any kind of authority on cosmology and particle physics and whatever you might think she's also an authority in. Renko's musings are not "confirmation" of anything. It's literally just a step above using the ramblings of a "smart" high school student as evidence.
Why do you keep inventing arguments I never made? I never argued that particles are disconnected from physical laws, I argued that just because something is made of "different particles" (i.e. tachyons instead of baryons) doesn't mean that it doesn't follow the same physical laws as anything else in the wider universe. Or, in short, "different particles =/= different physical laws". If there was a hypothetical antimatter planet floating somewhere in a universe like ours, it would still follow the same physical laws as everything else.
Can you look up my arguments in this thread again? No offense, but it seems that you and @Elizhaa are just skimming through the thread without looking at any counterarguments to the OP. The OP has also been pretty "uncharitable", if not outright dishonest with the characterization of her opponent's arguments, such as claiming that I'm arguing that particles are disconnected from physics in themselves, an argument I never actually made.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #52
Alright, so here you are completely misrepresenting my argument. Higan and Avici are supporting evidence; I know that they alone wouldn't grant acausality. But what I've done is combine them with other, similar situations which support acausality. Here's a quick recap of the various feats for characters that I'm using for acausality:
-Exists in a realm with a different flow of time and physical laws. Unaffected by moving to different realms with different laws.
-Can act normally inside of Eientei, which exists outside of time and history and has a frozen flow of time.
-Unaffected by Keine reversing time and erasing the human village from history.
So as you can see, characters consistently ignore changes in both time and causality. Add Higan and Avici in and that becomes even more consistent.
Also, I'm well aware Touhou isn't Sonic or DMC. But my point is, we do in fact accept feats of moving in locations with different laws of time and causality as type 4 acausality, even if the context of those differences will vary from verse to verse.
You seem very fixated on the time stuff when, as I showed above, it's supporting evidence. The main things are operating on a different system of causality entirely, acting normally in locations where the fundamental rules of cause and effect shouldn't even exist, and being unaffected by changes to the past.
To answer your second question, you obviously didn't read the scans provided. Eientei is blatantly working off of a different system, one where time and cause and effect cannot take place, thus leaving everything in a state of stasis; It exists outside of history, thus, there is no 'cause' and by extension no 'effect', so nothing can be affected under Kaguya's spell of eternity, which is repeatedly affirmed to be true by various sources on Eientei. All of this would obviously qualify as "warped" or "unnatural".
So your point here is that someone in college for physics does not actually have any significant knowledge on physics? Yeah that's uh... a bit of a ******' reach lmao. She's at least 20 based on the Old Adam CD, so she's had, at bare minimum, 2 years dedicated to studying these concepts at a high level, in addition to her natural genius intellect.
But even then, we see that what she's saying is true. She isn't making a wild guess, she's seeing real, observable phenomena in action. Even if it was purely speculatory, that speculation turned out to be true so uh... what exactly is the point of debating this?
AND THE WORLD RECORD FOR FASTEST SELF CONTRADICTION GOES TO-
"Clearly, the staff disagreeing with me don't actually disagree with me, they just haven't read my arguments" lol
Anyways thread's accepted, I got work in 20 minutes, and I got a day off after this so I can do the edits as soon as I get back and figure out what to do about the Gensokyo/Hakurei Barrier stuff in the justifications.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #54
- 9,678
- 11,095
My evidence:
- nothing lol lmao
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,489
- 1,035
I guess we can request this thread to be closed very soon since two staff agreed with it.
- 1,050
- 491
Except, even in combination with everything else, no "acausality" is proven. Gensokyo's laws are still fundamentally the same as the rest of the universe's laws, being "unaffected by alternative laws" is just reality warping/law manipulation resistance (which doesn't apply here, of course), being able to act normally in a realm "outside of time and history" with "frozen time" is...nothing in power indexing terms beyond maybe time/causality resistance (and really just goes back to giving tiers and new abilities just for moving in "special realms" like voids and higher spaces), and being unaffected by time reversals and removing an object unrelated to you from "history" is just time manipulation resistance.
I'm not misrepresenting your arguments here, I'm just going off what you said.
So they go into realms with funky causality without getting messed up, and then are not affected by something not related to their intrinstic "past" (i.e. the Human Village during that time) being removed from "history". Or, rather, concealed from "history" in a manner that gives off an appearance (read: an illusion) that said something never existed. Hardly any serious evidence for "acausality".You seem very fixated on the time stuff when, as I showed above, it's supporting evidence. The main things are operating on a different system of causality entirely, acting normally in locations where the fundamental rules of cause and effect shouldn't even exist, and being unaffected by changes to the past.
To answer your second question, you obviously didn't read the scans provided. Eientei is blatantly working off of a different system, one where time and cause and effect cannot take place, thus leaving everything in a state of stasis; It exists outside of history, thus, there is no 'cause' and by extension no 'effect', so nothing can be affected under Kaguya's spell of eternity, which is repeatedly affirmed to be true by various sources on Eientei. All of this would obviously qualify as "warped" or "unnatural".
As for the second part, while I do see the parts about things resetting or "staying the same" over prolonged periods of time, I must ask: why do random objects resetting themselves or remaining "viable" in spite of what happens to them have anything to do with the actions of living beings? I doubt that if a regular human being threw a punch at another's face in Eientei, that punch would get reversed or undone by Eientei's effects or whatnot.
Not significant enough that her random ruminations about her friend's dreams are to be taken as fact, irrespective of her "natural genius intellect".
She isn't describing anything she saw, she's making poetic phrases off of her friend's dream visions. Nothing "proved" these speculations to be true.
Where's the contradiction? Saying that "different particles don't necessarily mean different physical laws" is not the same as saying "particles are disconnected from physical laws".
- 9,678
- 11,095
Do you have any scans for this? I have plenty that suggests this is far from the opposite, such as Gensokyo having different laws of gravity (oh, look, Maribel and Renko also state Gensokyo has different laws than the outside world, that's another supporting evidence for me), actually, I could literally use a lot of scans from Dr. Latency's Freak Report since it proves that Gensokyo's laws are far different than the outside world's.
I would agree with this point, until more context proves you're wrong in this as well. When fighting Reimu and Yukari, Keine did say that she "hid" the human village, but in fights with the rest of Touhou 8's cast she admits that she actually did use her history manipulating powers to make the human village disappear to protect them from being hit by any type of danmaku. It also doesn't help that the only one who says they can "see" the human village is Yukari, who constantly plays with her opponents and likes to get into their heads, so she's likely lying as well.
Except it's already accepted by now that dreams in Touhou contain perfect replicas of locations, except Merry literally has an ability to project herself into Gensokyo and otherworlds, except she literally manages to pull out things from her dreams that are in fact perfect replicas of said things from Gensokyo. I can go on.
"I don't have proof, so I'm gonna claim that these are just poetic phrases."
ÆONS
He/Him- 1,489
- 1,035
You're right. Nothing that happened here should have been there in the first place IMO.
- 1,050
- 491
The only relevant part of that screenshot you linked is "if the gravitons have a different structure, the world's properties would be different too and "if one went to a brane dominated by particles with different properties."
"If". As in, a hypothetical and not an objective statement of fact. I fundamentally take askance with taking hypothetical (read: unproven) statements about any cosmology as something factual.
So what? It just means that she's made it "physically hidden" as well to some capacity. It doesn't mean that she manipulated the village's causality or anything, or literally erased its history, since the protags still remembered it as it were.
Nothing about dreams in Touhou proves anything Renko said about Gensokyo's particles to be true. That's a complete non-sequitur.
"Poetic", nonliteral, subjective, hypothetical. Either way, no objective proof of anything is being shown here.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #63
Yeah, a hypothetical followed by that hypothetical actually ******* occurring. Renko says if the particles are different (which they are), the laws would be different too. But guess what? We don't need to argue whether or not that's actually true, because we literally see it described in the text in the exact same passage, with the laws in Gensokyo clearly being described in a fashion that would make them different from that of the outside world.
Ah yes
The character whose main ability is that of manipulating history cannot actually manipulate history. Yes. Very good.
Anyways, the reason they remember it is because of their acausality; They were not erased despite relying on the human village, so changes to the past don't affect them, which means they'd have no trouble remembering the past even if it were altered in some way. Them remembering the village isn't contradictory to their acausality when their acausality is why they can remember it to begin with.
Hmmmmmmm
Yeah, wonder where the topic of dreams came from? Guess we'll never know.
This still isn't proof. We've provided scans from the source material backing up our points. Can you do the same instead of just throwing out synonyms?
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #65
Yeah I don't really see the need to continue arguing if we've reached the point of "this is hyperbole/flowery language/poetic" arguments. That sort of thing is basically just "I think it's wrong therefore it is wrong", and can't even be argued against because any evidence will be met with the same response; It's argument from belief at its finest.
Anyways I think if I specify that the acausality applies to everyone under the Hakurei Barrier, that should be good enough. So I can get started on the edits whenever I get permission to do so.
Anyways I think if I specify that the acausality applies to everyone under the Hakurei Barrier, that should be good enough. So I can get started on the edits whenever I get permission to do so.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #66
One last bump before I decide to just apply the edits.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #67
Whatever, we have enough agreement, I'll get started.
- 1,050
- 491
One last thing, I guess.
Don't answer that.
Or, maybe, this "history erasing" business, at least in regards to the Human Village, is not literally bending/breaking/negating causality.
And what is with this circular arguing that takes "acausality" as something a priori true?
A magically floating castle doesn't mean that whatever Renko thinks Gensokyo is structured like is true. That's just a complete non-sequitur. A fantasyland castle could be floating for reasons that have nothing to do with "differently structured gravitons" - something that I should add is not even possible, as gravitons are elementary particles that have no "inner parts" to "differently structure".
Yet none of the regular human beings in the Human Village were at all affected by having their history being "erased" by Keine? Are they all "acausal" too?
Or, maybe, this "history erasing" business, at least in regards to the Human Village, is not literally bending/breaking/negating causality.
And what is with this circular arguing that takes "acausality" as something a priori true?
Yeah, your point being?
Except those scans don't back up your points. You're just reaching heavily with them.
You're not staff, and don't get to tell anyone to "just stop" simply because they're making arguments you don't like and would rather smear than try to actually refute.
FantaRin_The_First
Username Only- 4,096
- 2,503
Well. While I still disagree with the self-perception manip, I do agree with everything else, so happy days! Now, I wait for the 8-B upgrade for fairies!
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
She/Her- 9,828
- 12,455
- Thread starter
- #70
That's next on the agenda, don't you worry.
Oh right I guess I've been procrastinating for several hours now lol
- 168,514
- 77,231
I was asked to close this thread.
- Status
Similar threads
