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Yonko Revision

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Dr.Fix said:
I did.
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No you didnt, you gave us a random telling us his opinion on stuff hes heard
Dr.Fix said:
As rated by you and a few others, but that is personal opinion. There is no REASOn to call him untrust worthy
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Yes there is, hes never fought nor met either character. This site has rules or at least guidelines about what statements can be used and some random character telling us his opinion doesnt fall within those, if it was supporting evidence that would be one thing but it’s literally your main and only argument so far.
 
You’re acting as if the burden of proof is on us to prove that someone whose information is nothing but hearsay is unreliable. It’s the opposite, you have to give evidence that what he’s saying is reliable. One section about what he says being true does not mean the rest is.

If you have more solid evidence besides Skull’s statement, I can agree with you. But if you don’t, then I don’t really have a choice but to disagree.
 
Dr.Fix said:
I did.
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You literally didn't
Dr.Fix said:
As rated by you and a few others, but that is personal opinion. There is no REASOn to call him untrust worthy
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His source, the person itself is untrustworthy. He has no way of knowing "in terms of sheer battle power" the difference between old whitebeard and Kaido, this same person believed (just like the rest of his crew) that Ace could beat Whitebeard and Ace proceeded to get one shot. This also doesn't cover the fact that his sources are untrustworthy by their very nature.
Dr.Fix said:
No you didn't. You suppied a vague statement from a "FACTUALLY' discredited osurce.

Oda goes against this particular Databook in the Vivre cards. Even he knows one is bad.
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He also went with this same databook when he was asked in the SBS. The Vivre cards corrected the wrong data in the databook but that in no way makes the other info invalid which isn't wrong invalid.
Dr.Fix said:
False.
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She's literally referring to them as individuals.
 
Okay just to clarify people think anything to do with One Piece is immaterial unless it comes from a certain character?

I really need time to focus on RL right now and to track down some information without being hounded, but putting aside Whitebeard VS Kaido drama can people discuss the actual changes while I'm AFK? Please and thanks.
 
Dr.Fix said:
Putting aside the fact he is #1 in strength, Kaido took 0 damage from Luffy and one-shot him. Keep in mind Post WCI Luffy's gear 3 scales to 550 (baseline 7-A+) via Katakuri. a lowball multiplier puts him at 1.65 Gigatons. For this reason we know Kaido scales way above 1.65 Gigatons. We can even argue he could be high 7-A+ according to recent revisiosn regarding the plus sign. Suffice to say it can be used if there is a large gap in power and the difference between the anchor (1.65) is close to the half way mark (2.15). On this merit Alone Kaido is at least high 7-A, maybe even High 7-A+. There is some discretion as to how to use the scale up feature. He also scales above the other Yonko, any Marine, and anyone else alive.
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It was accepted a while ago that Luffy's Gear Fourth Multiplier doesn't apply to Gear third but Base if i remember correctly so Boundman wouldn't be 1.65 gigatons, but I do agree that Kaido should be far higher than boundman but if I'm remembering correctly upscaling currently only applies as a 1.1 times multiplier increase so I don't believe it would grant Kaido a "High 7-A+" rating.
Dr.Fix said:
Being stronger than her children and blocking Luffy gives her high 7-A right away. She also clashed with Kaido, albeit he may not have been serious given their relationship and how the "fight" ended.
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At the time they were serious since they both planned on killing each other, i agree though that she should be above her children.
Dr.Fix said:
Prime version scales above his older self which scales above Marineford version. Marine ford version was still able to bat away Aokiji like a fly and it took all three admirals to block one of his attacks. Adding the lower estimates of the 2 admirals together gives us 1.1 gigatons (baselines high 7-A) and Whitebeard is between that and 1.65 (All three instead of just 2). Higher ends put him at double these figures (Between 2.2 and 3.3 Gigatons). He is also obviously stronger than his commanders.
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What's the evidence that Old self is physically weaker than his marineford version? Yes slower as given evidence than Marco but I don't believe any info was given that his power diminished between Old and Marineford.

For the rest as KingTempest Said:
"We're not allowed to add up AP and say "this is what they scale to""
 
For the actual changes and ignoring the Kaido vs Old WB debate I agree with basically everything, I think neither BM or Kaido where fully serious in their battle at least the part we saw.

“What's the evidence that Old self is physically weaker than his marineford version?” I saw this due to not only the immense amount of damge he takes but also the fact that his health failing him at an fast pace so while at the very start of MF he was likely at the same level was time went on I think his power dropped although for actually evidence beyond the obvious damge plus the hesrt attacks I dont have any atm, id have to reread MF.
 
Axxtentacle said:
You’re acting as if the burden of proof is on us to prove that someone whose information is nothing but hearsay is unreliable. It’s the opposite, you have to give evidence that what he’s saying is reliable. One section about what he says being true does not mean the rest is.
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Thatch says Kaido is more thug than pirate and the author says strength is hard to determine given the many types of power. Kaido being the "strongest living thing/creature already existed when Whitebeard was alive. Beyond that I do not know if I can help you. Skull was written as a highly intelligent man who's hobby was gathering info on pirates. He was Ace's brain and did not offer judgements on what he didn't have knowledge on such as not commenting on Shanks. If his information on them was sub-par then he wouldn't have a said Kaido is stronger 1-1 (and Whitebard was stronger in other ways). He was humble and intelligent and certainly canon. Nothing he said is contradicted by the manga and the default for this stuff is that it should be treated as true unless contradicted by the manga. All he does is fill in existing blanks.

As far as battle experience goes Kaido is the gold standard and we know who he had in his top 5 all time. He fought with and against all the big players. He took on the world powers by himself. He became the Yonko most characterized by strength, the strongest alive, and the 1-1 champ. If he doesn't know who is the strongest than only characters like Skull might pick up the slack via their research method.

here is a link for your benefit.
 
Dr.Fix said:
the author says strength is hard to determine given the many types of power. Kaido being the "strongest living thing/creature already existed when Whitebeard was alive. Beyond that I do not know if I can help you. Skull was written as a highly intelligent man who's hobby was gathering info on pirates. He was Ace's brain and did not offer judgements on what he didn't have knowledge on such as not commenting on Shanks. If his information on them was sub-par then he wouldn't have a said Kaido is stronger 1-1 (and Whitebard was stronger in other ways). He was humble and intelligent and certainly canon. Nothing he said is contradicted by the manga and the default for this stuff is that it should be treated as true unless contradicted by the manga. All he does is fill in existing blanks.
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The author never said that, the ace novels are spoken in first person from Deuce (another member of Ace's Crew) and he's also the person who couldn't make a judgment on Shanks.

the novel goes as follows "According to Skull, the pirate obsessed nerd, in terms of sheer battle power in a one-on-one fight, Kaido was likely the strongest." not only is the quote a character statement who gathered said information from other character statements but he isn't even certain, it's just his opinion. And it's not like Skull is some professional power scaler who knows the actual strength of Whitebeard and kaido since he's never met either of them. In fact he believed Ace could defeat Whitebeard thus showing how accurate his assessments are.

His knowledge on "in a one-on-one fight" is probably just a reference to Kaido's introduction where it states "People say 'in a one-on-one fight, always bet on Kaido" which is again just a hearsay statement.
 
I know about the novel.

What Emini said. You're pushing what Skull says as if it's WoG. Guess Ace was stronger than Whitebeard, since he believed Ace could beat Whitebeard, and he's "written to be an intelligent man", so we know we can trust what he says.

Time to upgrade Ace and Jinbei since Ace can beat Whitebeard and Jinbei fought him for days. Whitebeard is only the "Strongest Man In The World" in terms of military power, he's just not that powerful by himself.
 
With the changes. I'm neutral on Kaido VS Whitebeard for now, but leaning toward agreeing with Whitebeard being stronger...
 
ZoroNotZolo said:
With the changes. I'm neutral on Kaido VS Whitebeard for now, but leaning toward agreeing with Whitebeard being stronger...
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I'm still confused sorry. FRA people are okay with the changes. It is just a couple people are arguing over Kaido VS Whitebeard but changing the profiles to mention actual feats is agreed upon.
 
Damage3245 said:
As Emin pointed out, I trust Big Mom's opinions in the manga more than I do the novel.
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Dr.Fix said:
Big Mom explicitly refers to crew strength and a power to to take all three other Yonkos.
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I mean I have tons more I can answer regarding this whole matter but if people are too busy or something to reply I rather you put this thread on a tempoary hiatus rather than let it rot without attention.
 
Utterly asinine to take Linlin's words as referring to individual strength. Basic reading comprehension and her characterization dictates that she would never put anyone over herself in regards to individual strength.

Here is a long and detailed post I found from a forum member on WorstGen

This panel in which she proclaims that with the connections she would have secured with Elbaf, that she would have been able to crush her other Great Pirate Rivals in Kaido, Shanks and "Even Whitebeard" My problem is not with the panel itself but rather the somewhat extreme conclusions people make. Many in the One Piece fandom use Linlin's proclamation as "proof" and "evidence" that she is a weaker combatant than Newgate and that she puts him above herself. The goal of this thread is to dispel such notions because with an application of context, logic and an analysis of Linlin's own personality, it is rather evident that she does not declare herself individually inferior to Edward Newgate.

Part 1: Context And Great Power Politics
First, it is imperative to apply context in almost every panel when it comes to any power scaling discussions especially with Oda who time and time again discards power levels to progress plot. Context in this instance is necessary because any proclamations that Linlin considers herself individually weaker than Newgate misses the fact that the whole conversation and premise of her statement was about all out war against her rivals.

I don't want to particularly delve deep on specific theories of international relations but, a commonly notion held by realists, rationalists, idealists and other schools of thought lying outside and within these primary schools is that great powers do not fight each other. The explanations as to why Great Powers at least in post WWII world do not engage in full blown wars and resort to low level proxy wars are many but, one of the more popular explanations is that wars between great powers is far too costly. Costs in this context can range from human life, infrastructure, resources and even global political image. This particular explanation is very in line with the One Piece World and the maintenance of the status quo between the Great Powers.

The Ace novel elaborates on the power dynamic in the world and why the Great Pirate Crews do not engage each other in an all out war. The answer to this is because it is simply too costly. It is important to understand that the Great Pirate era is far different from the old Era in that individual power and combat strength means far less than in the bygone Era. In this Great Pirate age, the strongest in the world cannot freely conquer the world or showcase their strength because other Great powers and pirates serve as checks and balances. What these checks and balances mean is that if a full scale war is to occur between two Yonko crews, the winner of the conflict would have taken immense loses in all types of resources. The power balance exists because these Great Pirate Crews balance one another and are in perpetual conflict.

The Great pirate crews are in a stalemate because their individual strength is not enough to tip the balance of power. This is why Kaido for all his bloodlust and savagery, is not concentrating on making himself stronger but rather, the entirety of his forces through the use of artificial devil fruits and the mass production of arms. Linlin, in all her distrust for all that is not blood is willing to accept people not related to her by blood into her pirate crew, and seeks cloning and giantification technology to enhance the strength of her forces. Teach, even with two devil fruits is constantly seeking other devil fruit powers to bolster the power of his crew.

So, what does all of this mean? It means that Linlin's proclamation has nothing to do with individual strength. For Linlin to become the Pirate King, she would have to defeat Kaido and the entirety of his forces in an all out war, do the same to Shanks, and do the same to Newgate. As I have previously highlighted, to face 1 single Yonko crew would leave any emperor depleted to such an extent that other Emperors would quickly capitalize on the opportunity to acquire territory and erase the victor of the war. No matter how strong Linlin is individually, with her current forces, she is not beating 3 Yonko crews consecutively. The aforementioned does not even take into account the forces of the World Government which would obviously be another road block for her to overcome on her way to becoming the Pirate King.

Linlin knows something about Elbaf that we the readers do not know yet. The giants may have access to an ancient weapon or, the giant army is simply that strong. But, what the connection to Elbaf would permit her is the ability to take all the loses she would take from each rival in an all out war, and still have enough military might to overcome the WG and become the Pirate King. The entire premise of her statement with any application of context and logic makes it clear her words had nothing to do with individual strength. (I have my opinions as to why Linlin is the strongest character in the one Piece verse) but, her statement has nothing to do with individual power like many assume. The only thing that we might be able to assume or the only leap of logic we can make from her words, is that she might consider Newgate are bigger threats to her goals than Shanks and Kaido.

The explanation as to why she considers Newgate a bigger threat is made rather clear in the Ace Novel. The novel states that WB had the largest fleet/crew of any of the Emperors and had the most territory. Manpower and the overall strength of one's forces is very important in this Era where individual might yields very little because there is little freedom to exercise it. A larger fleet = a bigger fighting force. Now, I would like to quickly dismiss any attempt at dismissing the importance of numbers and manpower. A counter argument might state "COC goes Brrr" But, as we have seen in this arc and in past arcs like the MF War, numbers are important. If numbers were not important, the Marines wouldn't employ so many soliders. The Emperors would make no attempt to expand the sizes of their armies, etc etc. Additionally, more territories means a greater pool of resources to draw from in an all out war. It is also worth noting that due to Linlin's distrust of anyone that is not her family,a large majority of her army in the form of chess soldiers are actually soul constructs rather than actual human soldiers. Her unwillingness to trust non relatives likely inherently restricts the size of her forces. So, with all this in mind, we can somewhat understand why Linlin might consider Newgates a bigger threat than Shanks and Kaido but again, such considerations say nothing about who is the stronger combatant.


Part 2: Linlin's Personality
First and foremost, Linlin is a conqueror and one of the Great Pirates in the history of the One Piece world. She stands at the pinnacle of strength with the other great pirates of past and present. Reaching such heights is not suited for those who accept inferiority in any capacity. If we use any competitive endeavor as an example, it is rare to see the very best in their field proclaim that they are inferior to their rivals. To reach the highest level, one must truly believe they are the very best and can accomplish anything they set their mind to. Any proclamation that Linlin views herself as inferior to Newgate based on this panel directly contradicts her personality and character portrayal.

1. We witnessed Kaido threaten Linlin with death because she said she wanted to come capture Luffy in Wano. Despite Kaido's warning and Linlin coming without her full force, she balked at his threat and continued to levy her threats to his strongest subordinates even in chains. She fear no one and has no respect for anyone if that respect clashes with her interests. Kaido is a character who has greater "hype" surrounding his individual might than Newgate yet, she does not hesitate to engage him in a war even while outnumbered.

2. Linlin is an egomaniac who believes her actions are just no matter what she does. She is willing to subjugate others if it means realizing her dream of a Utopia for all races. She openly insults Katakuri who is her strongest subordinate for even thinking of defending her because she is just "lowly son" She insults Jinbei for "using strength" against her and that he is just a "mere shark" and has no right to think that he can match her in a contest of strength. There are other instances of this behavior but, these two instances are the most stark and highlight just highly she thinks of herself in regards to individual strength.

The personality that Oda has given Linlin thus far which is one of supreme self confidence bordering on hubris lies in direct contradiction with any notion that she assumed inferiority to Newgate. No Great Pirate reaches the status that Linlin has attained with the notion that they are individually inferior to any rival pirate.


Part 3: Conclusion

Every time someone says "Even Whitebeard", it is necessary to understand the context and true implications of such a statement. The application of even the barest of context and logic contradict the notion that Linlin's statement is one that admits inferiority to Edward Newgate. First and foremost, such a conclusion ignores the clear power dynamics that exist in the world and reduces all conflicts between great powers as 1 v 1's. A war between Great Powers is more than a 1 v 1. Such a war requires the use of all latent and manifest resources thus, it is illogical to assume that when Linlin claims she would crush her rivals, she was only speaking about individual combat. Second, any regard her personality would further invalidate such claims because it is out of character for an egomaniac like Linlin who considers herself just, righteous and the most powerful in all measures of powers to assume any level of inferiority.
 
Why exactly is 7A+ Yonko being discussed ? Aren't they supposed to scale to Blackbeard's country level feat ?
 
Damage3245 said:
That's kind of the problem at looking at proposals that are outdated.
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lol it is your fault for ignoring this thread. I even asked you to put it on hiatus since you would not respond/give it attention at the time (I cannot since I do not have staff powers) but you did not even do that. Then you went and made most everyone 6-B ¯\(ツ)/¯
Frogthejam19 said:
. . . . Fantastic wall of text
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While I agree with everything said the decision is up to @Damage3245
 
lol it is your fault for ignoring this thread. I even asked you to put it on hiatus since you would not respond/give it attention at the time (I cannot since I do not have staff powers) but you did not even do that. Then you went and made most everyone 6-B ¯\(ツ)/¯
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Why the hell are you acting like I made everyone 6-B?

If it were solely up to me, nobody would be 6-B.

If you want this revision to get more attention, then summon more staff members. Don't call upon me to try and change everybody elses minds.
 
And please, call off the blame putting @Fix. Damage had minimum input in making anyone 6-B, so I don't understand why he's getting bashed.

I'll take the blame since it was my threads and my calcs that put them there, but stop dissing Damage
 
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