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Yonko Revision

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Dr.Fix

Dr.Fix

2,426
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Let me preface this by saying I'm not downgrading anyone.

Suffice to say the Yonko scaling right now is horrible. Absolutely horrible with things that do not make sense and way too much head canon.

"Regarded as the strongest of the current Yonkou prior to his death, including the likes of Kaido and Big Mom."

Completely false. Kaido was stronger even before marienford via novel.

"It took the combined efforts from all three Admirals to do sufficient enough damage to Whitebeard to weaken him to the point in which Blackbeard could harm him."

Also false. It took his weakend state for even Squard to hurt him. Everyone else came even latter.

I rather have concrete facts lead the way and good news is they're available, they just are not being used.






Kaido​


Putting aside the fact he is #1 in strength, Kaido took 0 damage from Luffy and one-shot him. Keep in mind Post WCI Luffy's gear 3 scales to 550 (baseline 7-A+) via Katakuri. a lowball multiplier puts him at 1.65 Gigatons. For this reason we know Kaido scales way above 1.65 Gigatons. We can even argue he could be high 7-A+ according to recent revisiosn regarding the plus sign. Suffice to say it can be used if there is a large gap in power and the difference between the anchor (1.65) is close to the half way mark (2.15). On this merit Alone Kaido is at least high 7-A, maybe even High 7-A+. There is some discretion as to how to use the scale up feature. He also scales above the other Yonko, any Marine, and anyone else alive.

Big Mom​


Being stronger than her children and blocking Luffy gives her high 7-A right away. She also clashed with Kaido, albeit he may not have been serious given their relationship and how the "fight" ended.

Whitebeard​


Prime version scales above his older self which scales above Marineford version. Marine ford version was still able to bat away Aokiji like a fly and it took all three admirals to block one of his attacks. Adding the lower estimates of the 2 admirals together gives us 1.1 gigatons (baselines high 7-A) and Whitebeard is between that and 1.65 (All three instead of just 2). Higher ends put him at double these figures (Between 2.2 and 3.3 Gigatons). He is also obviously stronger than his commanders.

Shanks​


Clashed with a Whitebeard that scales above his Marienford self. Although it is hard to gauge PL based on this one seemingly friendly clash it is all we have to go off of. Oda himself said we haven't seen Shanks actually fight yet. His power is also rspected by Kaido who is the strongest most battle experience among the top tiers.



Conclusion​


This way everyone retains their current rating. The reasons just comes from facts instead of hadcanon.
 
Dr.Fix said:
Completely false. Kaido was stronger even before marienford via novel.
Click to expand...
No he wasn't, that's a character statement from an Ace Pirate member who's never even been to the new world or met Whitebeard or Kaido. That's not confirmation.

Meanwhile we have direct comparisons from Big Mom who is a knowledgeable source and a more trusted character statement saying this "I'd have already destroyed Kaido, Red-Hair and Even Whitebeard" treating Whitebeard as the strongest.
0847-015.png

We also have just Oda directly calling Whitebeard the strongest pirate in his infobox; no "he's known as" he's just directly stated it:
Ev5k4gXXcAQQctu


We also have databook confirmation that Old Whitebeard was indeed the strongest Yonko:


Dr.Fix said:
Prime version scales above his older self which scales above Marineford version. Marine ford version was still able to bat away Aokiji like a fly and it took all three admirals to block one of his attacks. Adding the lower estimates of the 2 admirals together gives us 1.1 gigatons (baselines high 7-A) and Whitebeard is between that and 1.65 (All three instead of just 2). Higher ends put him at double these figures (Between 2.2 and 3.3 Gigatons). He is also obviously stronger than his commanders.
Click to expand...
It's dubious if Prime Whitebeard is physically stronger (In terms of power) than his old version since there are databook statements saying he didn't lose his old strength and vigor.

We don't really know if he's stronger or not, but it can be presumed he probably is which is what's currently on his profile.
 
@Eminiteable Do not be a hypocrite. You literaly just made a claim that a Yonko's strength means more than individual strength in the case of Shanks to upgrade Mihawk. Big Mom explicitly refers to crew strength and a power to to take all three other Yonkos. The novel says Whitebeard is a better pirate, he's just not ALSO individually stronger on top of that so no contradiction with the manga.
 
Dr.Fix said:

Big Mom​


Being stronger than her children and blocking Luffy gives her high 7-A right away. She also clashed with Kaido, albeit he may not have been serious given their relationship and how the "fight" ended.
Click to expand...
Big Mom's dura should scale to tanking the full discharge of Zeus' lightning. Zeus' should be comparable to the other homies like Napoleon who matched Kaido.
She would also scale from taking Luffy's attacks as well.

Dr.Fix said:

Whitebeard​


Prime version scales above his older self which scales above Marineford version. Marine ford version was still able to bat away Aokiji like a fly and it took all three admirals to block one of his attacks. Adding the lower estimates of the 2 admirals together gives us 1.1 gigatons (baselines high 7-A) and Whitebeard is between that and 1.65 (All three instead of just 2). Higher ends put him at double these figures (Between 2.2 and 3.3 Gigatons). He is also obviously stronger than his commanders.
Click to expand...
This isn't allowed. We're not allowed to add up AP and say "this is what they scale to" via this thread.
Dr.Fix said:

Shanks​


Clashed with a Whitebeard that scales above his Marienford self. Although it is hard to gauge PL based on this one seemingly friendly clash it is all we have to go off of. Oda himself said we haven't seen Shanks actually fight yet. His power is also rspected by Kaido who is the strongest most battle experience among the top tiers.
Click to expand...
I have no issues with this
 
Big Mom's dura should scale to tanking the full discharge of Zeus' lightning. Zeus' should be comparable to the other homies like Napoleon who matched Kaido.
Click to expand...

Not that I fully disagree with you here, but in the BM vs. Kaido fight, it was Big Mom herself swinging Napolean to match Kaido. I don't think it's fair to assume that Napoleon by himself could match Kaido, and that Zeus is equal to that.
 
Damage3245 said:
Not that I fully disagree with you here, but in the BM vs. Kaido fight, it was Big Mom herself swinging Napolean to match Kaido. I don't think it's fair to assume that Napoleon by himself could match Kaido, and that Zeus is equal to that.
Click to expand...
It's not like Napolean on his own can swing around and fight Kaido tbf, but I understand your main point, so I can drop it
 
Dr.Fix said:
The novel says Whitebeard is a better pirate, he's just not ALSO individually stronger on top of that so no contradiction with the manga.
Click to expand...
All of that info is based off Skull a character who's literally never been to the new world or met either character, these are character statements based off hearsay.
 
Eminiteable said:
All of that info is based off Skull a character who's literally never been to the new world or met either character, these are character statements based off hearsay.
Click to expand...
Skull is written by Oda giving context. If you prefer word of God Oda used Kaido as the measuring stick of power when he said your mother is even stronger than Kaido.

But it is irrelevant since nothing in the manga contradicts Skull.
 
Dr.Fix said:
@Eminiteable Do not be a hypocrite. You literaly just made a claim that a Yonko's strength means more than individual strength in the case of Shanks to upgrade Mihawk. Big Mom explicitly refers to crew strength and a power to to take all three other Yonkos.
Click to expand...
How is this me being a hypocrite? I made the claim that becoming a Yonko requires these things, in this case a powerful crew, however this doesn't translate to Big Mom who was referring to the other 3 emperors as individuals.
Him becoming a Yonko; becoming a Yonko isn't purely a strength status as it's been shown in the story (and even elaborated further in the ace novels) that to become a yonko you need influence, land, large powerful crews etc and like the name implies to be an emperor you need to rule like one, so Shanks becoming a yonko isn't actually an accurate way of determining who's stronger between Shanks and Mihawk.
Click to expand...
 
Now if you want to talk about bad sources then those older databooks are the gold standard. Deepblue got a ton of stuff wrong.

Ace Novel>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Older databooks.
 
KingTempest said:
Check the wiki for any info on the validity of Skull then check the novel to see if it's valid or not.

I'm neutral on the Kaido > WB thing, but to play devil's advocate, Kaido said that there's a few capable of fighting him, not emphasizing superiority or anything, so idk.
Click to expand...
This is from your site:

 
Dr.Fix said:
This is from your site:

Click to expand...
I'm not saying use them as law or primary canon.

I'm saying check for the information, and if they source it, go to the source and see if it's canon or not.
 
The problem with Primebeard vs Old WB is that we dont get statements about his physical strength or DF being weaker, we know hes slower and his haki is weaker but the other two we dont afaik.

For Kaido vs WB, whole both sides seem to have some unreliable stuff the WB side seemingly has more evidence, saying BM is referring to the characters plus their crews when she specifically says there names seems like an assumption. MF WB likely scales below current Kaido but id say Primebeard definitely doesn’t. For Old WB vs Kaido I dint really know, hes definitely above MF WB but below Primebeard so im neutral on that.
 
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Dr.Fix said:
Skull is written by Oda giving context. If you prefer word of God Oda used Kaido as the measuring stick of power when he said your mother is even stronger than Kaido.

But it is irrelevant since nothing in the manga contradicts Skull.
Click to expand...
Skull's info is literally what he's heard in paradise about these characters, it's not oda's word of god and you can't assume that when the character's info is gathered by hearsay and based on that character's opinion. It's literally the same thing as using "People say he's the strongest creature" as word of god.
Dr.Fix said:
This is from your site:
Click to expand...
Oda was willing to rectify that first point, thus he cares about the validity of that databook. A databook having false info present doesn't make the entire book false, this would go against Oda quotes these databooks as trustworthy sources.
 
PsychoWarper said:
saying BM is referring to the characters and their crews
Click to expand...
There are no assumptions. Read the chapter. Big Mom is specifically talking about Lola costing her military power, not individual strength. She says AND even whitebeard. Meaning she can take out all three. No one thinks she is so strong she can solo three Yonkos by herself.
 
Alright I guess that makes sense cause she is talking about losing the Giants might for her crew. However seemingly your only proof for “Kaido > Old WB” is using some random dude who hasnt been to the New World before as the end all be all.
 
Dr.Fix said:
Point being they are not absolute and it is hypocritical to place something with such a bad reputation over anouther source.
Click to expand...
But your source doesnt seem any more legit, its not Oda himself saying it or someone whos fight against both or at least knows both.

What about him gives his words on the matter any sort of legitimate credence we should listen to?
 
This argument of “it’s a character written by oda meant to portray a message” is extremely weak, honestly.

Eminiteable pointed out the same issue I had with this, it’s the exact same as Kaido being >> everyone else for being stated to be the “strongest creature alive”.

What reason do we have to listen to this character’s statement? What info would they have other than overhearing a rumor and regurgitating it?
 
PsychoWarper said:
But your source doesnt seem any more legit, its not Oda himself saying it or someone whos fight against both or at least knows both.

What about him gives his words on the matter any sort of legitimate credence we should listen to?
Click to expand...
What about him says you should not? The novel doesn't have any criticisms unlike the databooks. It does not contradict anything in the manga.

The manga says Whitebeard has the title 'World Strongest man/Pirate"

It never says he is stronger than Kaido, an Oni who is more thug than pirate.

The Novel simply fills in the holes. Whitebeard is a better pirate than Kaido. That is a fact. Kaido is better in a 1-1 fight. Also fact. Yonko need more than individual strength. Cited by Big Mom in the importance she puts to Elbaf and by both @Damage3245 & @Eminiteable who gave Mihawk an upgrade beleiving this to be the case.

Whitebeard was strong, in a lot of ways. Nothing contradicts Oda/skull saying Kaido is physically stronger.

What reason do we have to beleive DeepBlue was referning individual strength? Does it ever cite this specifically or is it just a assumption? What reason do we have to beleive it is true in light of its many short comings? What reason do you have to beleive the Novel is lieing?
 
The problem with Kaidos “Strongest Creature Statement” is the way its portrayed, its portrayed as being sort of a rumor “He is said to be the Strongest Creature in the World” vs like Mihawk which is “He is the Strongest Swordsman” those differences in words changes it.

Now imo Kaido is the strongest currently alive but over Old WB... id need more.
 
Eminiteable said:
Provide evidence of these "facts" or why they should be used to say Kaidos is stronger.
Click to expand...
I already did. You are not delivering on any evidence to say WHitebeard was "individually" stronger than Kaido at any time, let alone Old.
 
PsychoWarper said:
if BM or Rayleigh say this then it would be one thing but a random dude whos never met or fought either just isnt a reliable source.
Click to expand...
What doe Rayleigh have to do with this? Big Mom never said Whitebeard was individually stronger than them. No one evr did.
 
PsychoWarper said:
Literally nothing about the dude gives his words on the matter credence, if BM or Rayleigh say this then it would be one thing but a random dude whos never met or fought either just isnt a reliable source.
Click to expand...
Also DeepBlue =/= rayleight either.
 
To play Devil's advocate, Skull does perfectly portray Linlin

DfBEJD3VAAAU8Fq.png


He gets that "strongest family" like and the "prefers business" portion.
Same with Kaido and his "loves violence".

Still neutral though, WB has "destroy the world" statements and such (not taken literally by me ofc), just saying, it's hard to decide
 
Dr.Fix said:
What doe Rayleigh have to do with this? Big Mom never said Whitebeard was individually stronger than them. No one evr did.
Click to expand...
You obviously didn’t understand what I was saying literally at all, my point is that those two have the experience and necessary knowledge to determine something like “Kaido > Old WB” cause they have met them and either fought them or at least likely seen them fight.

In canon this Skull dude who says this would have literally no knowledge one either if their actual powers beyond what hes heard from others.
 
Dr.Fix said:
I already did. You are not delivering on any evidence to say WHitebeard was "individually" stronger than Kaido at any time, let alone Old.
Click to expand...
No you didn't, you didn't provide evidence of facts like others have said you just repeated the same claiming that an untrustworthy source who even uses language to suggest it's only his opinion based off what he's heard "the bits of information that skull gathered" "According to Skull" "Debating the merits".

I already provided evidence for Old Whitebeard being above Kaido, the databooks are approved by Oda, that's enough. Big Mom was referring to the other 3 yonko as individuals and although she believed she could overcome them with higher military might, she still treated Whitebeard as the strongest individual.
 
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@Eminiteable everything you just said was a lie:

Eminiteable said:
No you didn't, you didn't provide evidence of facts
Click to expand...
I did.
Eminiteable said:
hat an untrustworthy source
Click to expand...
As rated by you and a few others, but that is personal opinion. There is no REASOn to call him untrust worthy
Eminiteable said:
already provided evidence for Old Whitebeard being above Kaido
Click to expand...
No you didn't. You suppied a vague statement from a "FACTUALLY' discredited osurce.
Eminiteable said:
the databooks are approved by Oda
Click to expand...
Oda goes against this particular Databook in the Vivre cards. Even he knows one is bad.
Eminiteable said:
Big Mom was referring to the other 3 yonko as individuals
Click to expand...
False.
 
KingTempest said:
To play Devil's advocate, Skull does perfectly portray Linlin

DfBEJD3VAAAU8Fq.png


He gets that "strongest family" like and the "prefers business" portion.
Same with Kaido and his "loves violence".

Still neutral though, WB has "destroy the world" statements and such (not taken literally by me ofc), just saying, it's hard to decide
Click to expand...
But its not hard to assume those are also things hes heard, just cause some of his hersay is correct doesnt mean all of it is.
 
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