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Yoko vs Goku

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Goodyfresh said:
I mean yeah, Kittan had a 0% chance of success, buuuut he still had to have the necessary AP to actually damage and destroy the generator. WIthout that sufficient AP, his probability manipulation wouldn't have been enough for him to take out the generator, ya know? As far as we know, the probability-manipulation in TTGL is not able to negate durability. Except maybe when Simon uses it since he is pretty much the God of that verse, but even that is just speculation.
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"Unknow, At least Large Planet level, likely Far Higher (Destroyed the Spiral Field Death Generator, which was crushing even Super Galaxy Gurren Lagann . Though whether he did this with sheer power or just Probability Manipulation is unknown, but he should be much stronger than before)

If he just had the AP, he wouldn't have had a 0% chance of breaking the thing in the first place.

Except literally immediately after that happened the Anti Spiral had to fires anti Probability missiles to decrease Team Dai-Gurren's chances of just no selling. This should work in reverse otherwise the Anti Spiral would have set their chances to take damage to 0 and GG.
 
Nedge1000 said:
Also, Yoko's AP, for Tier 2, is At least Low 2-C which I just notice now. So, this fight seems like a Stomp now, no matter how good Ultra Instant Dodging is especially since Yoko Littner can hit the Anti-Spiral who can avoid being hit using Multidimensional probability fluctuations.
Removing my vote since this fight is a stomp.
Click to expand...
After this post I am going to stop posting on this thread and leave you guys to it, as I am sure you are getting tired of my ridiculously long and rambling posts (I am REALLY bad at being concise; I'm so sorry about that, guys). So, here goes: The "at least" part is simply because of the in-show statements indicating that she and the other Team Dai Gurren members might actually be Tier 1-C, thus she might actually be far above Tier Low 2-C. Personally, I have never put any stock in the "10 dimensional" statement in the show, I think that the extra six dimensions are supposed to be an imperceptible compact manifold as according to String Theory in our universe, so shouldn't affect tiering, but that's just my opinion based on the fact that the final battle showed no evidence of being in a higher dimension, as well as the "10 or 11 dimensions" number obviously having been based on String Theory.

Anyway, judging by actual feats she has been shown demonstrating (and statements too) along with her team members in the series, if we are assuming that she is in fact only Low 2-C (which is part of the rules/conditions for this battle), then we can only assume her to be about baseline, as we have no evidence for Low 2-C-restricted Team Dai Gurren members showing above-baseline feats, except Simon by virtue of being way more powerful than his teammates.

Also I don't think that she can use probability manipulation to make it so all Goku's attacks will miss; yes her level of probability-manip scales to the level shown by Kittan, but Kittan never indicated being able to do so with his probability-manip; The only time we saw such a probability-manip feat (making it so enemy attacks can't hit without their own probability-manip) in TTGL is when the entirety of the team was working together; the only one to show such a feat individually was Attenborough in the movie, and probability-manip was his SPECIALTY.


Also: @DMUA, your quote above actually indicates that it is completely unsure/vague as to whether his probability-manip bypassed durability in that scene or not. "Though whether he did this with sheer power or just Probability Manipulation is unknown','" means that we aren't sure if the probability-manip bypasses dura. Also, in that scene, the issue wasn't that the generator itself was too durable for his AP, if you recall; The issue was the immense pressure of the anti-spiral-field ocean at that depth. It was pretty obvious from the scene that the generator itself actually had piss-poor durability as long as one could get close enough.

But I mean, I guess the issue here is that there are multiple ways to interpret this stuff. When it comes to how the reality warping and other hax from Spiral Power work in TTGL, all the statements and demonstrated feats tend to be pretty damn vague in terms of explaining what is actually going on. So I can totally see how other people would interpret the feats differently from me.

I'm honestly starting to feel like this battle is just inconclusive based on the various points I have listed here, since arguments about whether Yoko's hax are relevant can go both ways.

FYI I am not changing my vote to inconclusive though (i.e. my vote is still for Goku), due to how I PERSONALLY choose to interpret the feats and statements in TTGL making me think that Yoko's probability-manip won't help her here.
 
I mean, yeah honestly that description is pretty off point. What I was trying to say when I wrote that sucker is that it's unknown quite how much was AP. Considering that the Anti Spiral couldn't just set Team Dai Gurren's chances of hurting them to zero. In fact, the Anti Spiral had to use Anti Probability missiles to lower Team Dai Gurren's chances of just no selling everything they had. Probability had shown to apply to AP.

Not to mention if the generator had sucky dura it would have logically been vaporized doing it's job considering Newton was a thing
 
I see no reason why Yoko can't be just normal Low 2C. Her "At least Low 2C, Likely High 1C" rating includes the lowest ends and highest ends of those tiers, meaning that Yoko can be pitted against literally anyone in that range, which would include Goku. If you want to use her High 1C feats in here, fine, but your vote won't be valid

Thus, I don't think this is a stomp, so I'm not going to change votes YET
 
No, it means you have to use either her Low 2-C end or her High 1-C end. You can't for example make her 2-A so she could fight a 2-A.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
No, it means you have to use either her Low 2-C end or her High 1-C end. You can't for example make her 2-A so she could fight a 2-A.
Click to expand...
That is right, that how it always has been done.
 
@Mickey1940, the gap between a At least Low 2-C to Low 2-C is nearly infinite for the AP. Goku is not passing this AP fight, nor can he win via hax since he is haxless. Hence, the Stomp.
 
@Mickey1940, only VS Battles Staff like administrators, bureaucrats, and discussion moderators can close properly, assuming one request it. Here are those who are present here: Recent changes.

It is generally better if the OP request to close the thread.
 
Nedge1000 said:
@Mickey1940, the gap between a At least Low 2-C to Low 2-C is nearly infinite for the AP. Goku is not passing this AP fight, nor can he win via hax since he is haxless. Hence, the Stomp.
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Actually that's not entirely true. While 'At least Low 2-C' could imply that they're just really high into Low 2-C (like, insanely high), it's usually used in cases where a character could be considered Low 2-C, but an argument can also be made for a higher tier.

This is one of those cases. We'd simply disregard the things which could make them High 1-C and instead use the things which make them Low 2-C
 
Nedge1000 said:
@Mickey1940, the gap between a At least Low 2-C to Low 2-C is nearly infinite for the AP. Goku is not passing this AP fight, nor can he win via hax since he is haxless. Hence, the Stomp.
Click to expand...
Where did you get this from?

Literally no character on this wiki has an infinite gap above Baseline Low 2C
 
I think Master Hand is At least Low 2-C for treating other Low 2-Cs like toys. Wrongly, that is, because I'm 99.9% sure Master Hand doesn't have anything placing him higher.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Nedge1000 said:
@Mickey1940, the gap between a At least Low 2-C to Low 2-C is nearly infinite for the AP. Goku is not passing this AP fight, nor can he win via hax since he is haxless. Hence, the Stomp.
Click to expand...
Where did you get this from?
Literally no character on this wiki has an infinite gap above Baseline Low 2C
Click to expand...
My mistake is, this could be a false equivalency.

My thought was because of that an At least Low 2-C and a baseline 2-C character have similar power difference and could be near infinite when compare to Low 2-C character.

This is an idea, which I believe makes sense, that I got from @ShadowWarrior1999 from this thread:

A baseline 2-C still has to breach the distance between two space-time continuums, and that distance is unquantified since it can't be measured. The difference between a Low 2-C and 2-C could be infinite...
 
Yoko isn't 2C.

And the difference isn't infinite between a 2C and Low 2C, it's just unquantifiable
 
I will ask again (I know I said I wouldn't post here again, but this post will be short unlike my earlier ones):

What ACTUAL EVIDENCE do we have for Yoko being "At Least" Low 2-C, i.e., why did she even get such a rating in the first place? As far as I know, and I have watched TTGL like ten freaking times, we have no evidence whatsoever for any Low 2-C version of any TTGL character besides Simon being anywhere above baseline. What proof or feats or statements do we have to prove that Yoko is higher than baseline?

I guess my point is, I don't even think the "At Least" Low 2-C thing is even JUSTIFIED for her anyway, and I honestly cannot see any reason why her tier is even listed as such.
 
Because she could be High 1-C, not because she's above baseline as Low 2-C.
 
MDMUA said:
Because she could be High 1-C, not because she's above baseline as Low 2-C.
Click to expand...
MY POINT EXACTLY, and we are only using her Low 2-C key here, so why are people saying she is so far above baseline that she could "stomp" Goku? She doesn't stomp. In fact, we can only assume her to be baseline, which means Goku is the one with the massive AP and Durability advantage, here.
 
We perfer mentioning how Probability gives Yoko a 100% chance of evading or no selling and a 100% chance to hurt him in return.
 
MY POINT EXACTLY, and we are only using her Low 2-C key here, so why are people saying she is so far above baseline that she could "stomp" Goku? She doesn't stomp. In fact, we can only assume her to be baseline, which means Goku is the one with the massive AP and Durability advantage, here.

Yoko has hax which ignores durability.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
MY POINT EXACTLY, and we are only using her Low 2-C key here, so why are people saying she is so far above baseline that she could "stomp" Goku? She doesn't stomp. In fact, we can only assume her to be baseline, which means Goku is the one with the massive AP and Durability advantage, here.
Click to expand...
Yoko has hax which ignores durability.
And I'm acknowledging you MAY be right about that (personally, I disagree with the idea that the Probability-Manip in TTGL is durability-negating, as I explained in some of my posts above, but I can see why some of you guys think so, and I"m not going to try to say your reasoning is necessarily invalid). I was just saying that the argument SOME people were makign that she AP-stomps him is an invalid one, that's all. The hax arguments are totally valid though as long as you take the viewpoint that said hax do, in fact, ignore durability.
 
Gargoyle One said:
Yoko isn't 2C.
And the difference isn't infinite between a 2C and Low 2C, it's just unquantifiable
Click to expand...
You are right that what I meant by near infinite
 
It's unquantifiable meaning that even if you were infinitely above baseline Low 2-C, you'd still be considered Low 2-C. In order to get to 2-C, you need actual feats of affecting more than one universe.
 
All this talk of the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C is making me sad by reminding me of how pathetic Goku will be on this site once he reaches or surpasses Zen'o's level (solid Tier 2-C) by the very end of the entire franchise.

Goku will most likely NEVER be hax, nor hax-resistant, enough to take on pretty much ANY 2-C characters, ya know?

I mean, people are already arguing here in this thread that he may not be able to resist the Probability-Manip of TTGL characters, and Probability-Manip is actually pretty small-time compared to the hax often available to Tier 2-C characters in most verses that have them.
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
It's unquantifiable meaning that even if you were infinitely above baseline Low 2-C, you'd still be considered Low 2-C. In order to get to 2-C, you need actual feats of affecting more than one universe.
Click to expand...
You're right. My comparison was meant to be for comparing a baseline or above Low 2-C to an At least Low 2-C character. In this case, Yoko Littner AP stomp.
 
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