Yoko vs Goku

[Goodyfresh]

OPs can necro their own threads iirc

Ah, of course, I did not realize it was the OP who necro'd this; I stand corrected.

Voting for Goku based on the following reasoning (this is going to be very long, but bear with me here; I feel I need to go into detail to correct a lot of the erroneous arguments I am seeing in favor of Yoko supposededly being able to win this, and I am not good at being concise. Also, I know a lot about both verses, and I'm trying to make a comprehensive post that people below can cite as "FRA" for giving Goku the win here):


Isn't Low 2-C Yoko'' only baseline or barely above baseline? In which case...she actually might not even have sufficient AP to harm Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku, who is actually WAY above baseline Low 2-C. I mean: at that point even SSJB Goku is at least baseline, and SSJB Kaio Ken is 20 times that, and Ultra Instinct Sign is WELL above Blue KK, and MUI is yet again well above that, with full power enraged MUI even above that still, so he is probably like at least 50 to 100 times baseline but more realistically at least 150 times. Now let's remember something: The battle conditions state that Spiral Power is Equalized with Ki. What does that mean for us here? It has been stated by Word of God for Dragon Ball that as long as someone has AT LEAST DOUBLE THE POWER of someone else, they are capable of tanking all-out attacks from said person without taking any damage whatsoever (if someone really insists on it, I could dig up a link for this statement). Well, we just established that MUI Goku is at least something like 50 to 100 times baseline Low 2-C, and Yoko is only baseline or barely above it, so if the energy from the verses is equalized, she shouldn't even be able to harm him except with hax. So that pretty much rules out her being able to harm Goku with pure AP alone. So, now let's look at her hax and whether they may be good enough to beat Goku:

First, to the person who said that Yoko can just "think Goku out of existence": No she can't unless she is a higher tier of Low 2-C than Goku (which we just established she isn't even close to being), because Goku has Resistance to Existence Erasure at least at his own tier-level like what Veggie-chan (yes, feel free to laugh, I like to call him this) demonstrated against Toppo.

To answer Mickey1940's question: Yoko's reality-warping and metaphysics manipulation was never even shown to be that good, anyway, and neither is her probability manipulation. She basically has no feats of her own in terms of reality or metaphysics manipulation other than using those abilities to materialize her mech with spiral power and make said mech break the laws of physics. The member of Team Dai-Gurren with the REALLY good Probability-Manip is Attenborough, and the one with the REALLY hax reality-warping and metaphysics biz is Simon himself. . . . .Yoko on her own never really showed good feats when it comes to such hax, and the only reason she is even listed as having those hax is because Spiral Power by its very nature inherently grants at least some level of those hax and also because she comprised part of TTGL's power.

Also, to people saying Goku can't breathe outside a planet's atmosphere: That is covered in the battle conditions and isn't a valid argument here.

Voting for Goku for the reasons above which in a TL;DR summary are: Yoko has no real feats OF HER OWN when it comes to her reality warping, metaphysics manipulation, or probability manipulation. She's not even NEARLY far enough above baseline Low 2-C to actually hurt Goku with her AP, anyway. Finally, I didn't even mention this but she probably can't even hit him, as I doubt her probability manipulation (on her own without the rest of her team) is even good enough to overcome Goku's dodging abilities with Ultra Instinct along with his vastly superior fighting skill and experience, and he is an incredibly tiny target compared to her mech. Along with the fact that he has energy-sensing abilities while she doesn't. Even if her probability manipulation COULD get through his dodging abilities, he could just destroy/block every one of her shots with his own ki blasts.

Also let's remember: There is no evidence whatsoever that hax in TTGL (with the exception of the Anti-Spiral's mind-hax) are durability-bypasssing for people above the tier of the spiral-power which fuels those hax.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Also, sorry for the double-post but: It seems that some of the people's votes in favor of Yoko from before this thread got necroed, should possibly be discounted or ommitted due to them using arguments which are invalid according to the stated battle conditions. For example, GargoyleOne used arguments based on stuff like speed and Goku not being able to breath in space, but speed is equalized here and the battle conditions cover the whole atmosphere-thingy, so I don't see how their vote can even be considered valid. Meanwhile, it seems that GyroNuts used GargoyleOne's arguments as the basis for their vote for Yoko, so their vote unfortunately shouldn't really be considered valid, either.

I know it seems like I'm just trying to be biased in favor of Goku, but keep in mind I actually like TTGL more than DBS by a huge margin, so if anything I am biased in favor of the former, not the latter; but I STILL think Goku can take this.

 

[Cropfist]

No.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Except Yoko can think Goku out of existence. Goku's resistance to EE is just Hakai which doesn't work on stronger opponents. That's a limitation of the ability, DB characters resisting hax in their own verse from weaker characters doesn't mean they can from characters in other verses whose hax doesn't have that weakness.

 

[Mickey1940]

Except Yoko can think Goku out of existence. Goku's resistance to EE is just Hakai which doesn't work on stronger opponents. That's a limitation of the ability, DB characters resisting hax in their own verse from weaker characters doesn't mean they can from characters in other verses whose hax doesn't have that weakness.

yeah that makes little to no sense, but since I'm the OP, I'm gonna just quietly sit on the sidelines...

GoodyFresh ok, I'll add your vote

 

[Schnee_One]

Are you people still ignoring Goku can't SEE her?

 

[Goodyfresh]

Except Yoko can think Goku out of existence. Goku's resistance to EE is just Hakai which doesn't work on stronger opponents. That's a limitation of the ability, DB characters resisting hax in their own verse from weaker characters doesn't mean they can from characters in other verses whose hax doesn't have that weakness.

Dude, resistance to existence erasure at a certain tier is exactly what it sounds like. It doesn't matter what the SOURCE of that existence erasing power is. Goku can withstand existence erasure up to the level of HIS OWN TIER, that's all there is to it. Also, Hakai (the kind you are referring to where the GoD raises their hand and all) is the LOWER level of EE in DBS; the higher level is when a GoD actually creates an energy-blast of pure existence-erasing energy-of-destruction; Toppo was using such blasts at pretty much the same tier of power that Vegeta was at, and Vegeta resisted them all.

Also, let's not forget SPIRAL POWER AND KI ARE EQUALIZED HERE. Well, any kind of reality/metaphysics-warping based existence erasure which Yoko might try to use is limited by the tier of her own spiral power and is just an application of said spiral power. With Ki and Spiral Power equalized in that match, it may as well just be the same thing as Hakai. . .so yes, Goku can resist it.

Also, yeah they can resist the hax from "weaker" characters. But did you reven read everything I said? Yoko isn't just a lower level of Low 2-C than Goku, her spiral power is something like 50 to 100 times weaker than Goku's Ki or even below that. She is simply not capable of using her spiral energy to break through the tier of his ki because he is so far above baseline Low 2-C.

Honestly dude it seems like you didn't even actually read my reasoning and just lightly skimmed it instead, which I can understand since what I typed was super-long, but it still gets on my nerves a little bit. I can tell you didn't properly read my arguments because if you did, you would have noticed how I pointed out that Yoko's reality/metaphysics manip isn't even very good anyway, she basically has no feats in that regard and has NEVER exhibited the ability of existence-erasure.

@Cropfist: Just saying "no" is not a valid counter-argument, dude.

I will re-iterate: Since when has Yoko Littner shown any actually impressive level of reality warping or metaphysics feats, ever? All she ever really did was materialize giant cannons with giant bullets. All the good reality-warping feats were from Simon, not her.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Except Yoko can think Goku out of existence. Goku's resistance to EE is just Hakai which doesn't work on stronger opponents. That's a limitation of the ability, DB characters resisting hax in their own verse from weaker characters doesn't mean they can from characters in other verses whose hax doesn't have that weakness.

Pretty sure that a god of destruction is stronger than goku in base form.

 

[Mickey1940]

Are you people still ignoring Goku can't SEE her?

It's called sensing energy

Just because she's massive doesn't render Goku blind

 

[Cropfist]

Yoko has no ki signature for him to lock on.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Except Yoko can think Goku out of existence. Goku's resistance to EE is just Hakai which doesn't work on stronger opponents. That's a limitation of the ability, DB characters resisting hax in their own verse from weaker characters doesn't mean they can from characters in other verses whose hax doesn't have that weakness.

Pretty sure that a god of destruction is stronger than goku in base form.

Yeah dude, seriously, and way stronger than Golden Frieza too. And Toppo's existence-erasure was on just about the same tier as Vegeta himself in the final exchange of attacks in their fight, and Vegeta STILL resisted it.

Edit: And to the person who just mentioned energy sensing--YES, this is such an important point. Yoko has no energy sensing abilities at all, this actually gives Goku a HUGE advantage in this fight since he can pinpoint her location instantly and from any distance and proceed to target her precisely from a distance or teleport right to her, while due to the sheer size of her mecha she will be having to try to aim at Goku, a human sized target, from literally hundreds of thousands of light years away without any kind of energy-sensing abilities of her own. We've seen her aim precisely at a PLANET sized target from those distances, but have no evidence she can do the same with a human sized target.

 

[Schnee_One]

It's called sensing energy

Just because she's massive doesn't render Goku blind

<Universal sized being

<Semsing is an argument

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Goodyfresh "Also, let's not forget SPIRAL POWER AND KI ARE EQUALIZED HERE."

Which has nothing to do with her hax not having the limitation that DB hax has. Here we don't do the "DB characters will always resist hax from a weaker opponent" because that's an in-verse weakness of DB hax. It doesn't apply to other verses.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

Not voting just yet. Curious how this plays out, but I do want to make some clarifications.

Resistance does not equal Immunity.

Tier rating does not equal dimensional leveling unless said characters physically, mentally, or spiritual exist on a plane where said abilities won't be able to reach them. Goku's body is still on a 3-D dimensional level, thus making him effective to many hax abilities, but his resistance can still be helpful. Further knowledge has already been discussed and approved in the famous Hax resistance thread was created a while back.

 

[Mickey1940]

Yoko has no ki signature for him to lock on.

Read the rules

 

[Goodyfresh]

@Goodyfresh "Also, let's not forget SPIRAL POWER AND KI ARE EQUALIZED HERE."
Which has nothing to do with her hax not having the limitation that DB hax has. Here we don't do the "DB characters will always resist hax from a weaker opponent" because that's an in-verse weakness of DB hax. It doesn't apply to other verses.

But there's still the even more important fact that Yoko has never shown ANY feats indicating she can actually use reality/metaphysics warping in an offensive capacity aside from matter and energy materialization, dude. Literally all she has ever done is shoot giant bullets. How is that evidence that she can erase people from existence? As far as we know, her reality/metaphysics manip only extends as far as being able to screw with the laws of physics (like, to make a mech light-years in size be able to actually work and move around) and materialize matter out of thin air. We have literally no feats from her at all which indicate she can pull off existence-erasure, or biological transmutation, or any of the other more-hax offensive applications of reality warping which would be needed to give her an edge here.

Remember, we are only allowed to talk about a character's abilities as shown by feats in the canon of their verse. We can't just speculate that a character can do something with no evidence for that speculation. The one who was stated to be able to erase people from existence or revive the dead was Simon; we have literally no evidence whatsoever that any of the other members of Team Dai Gurren can use their reality warping for anything other than matter and energy manipulation and probability manipulation. And Yoko never showed any probability manipulation herself, that was Attenborough. At best, even her probability-manip is pretty darn piss-poor compared to most users of the ability in fiction.

Basically, you guys are all VASTLY overestimating the level of "reality warping" and "metaphysics manipulation" which other members of team Dai Gurren aside from Simon are capable of using. Simon is the one who is basically God by the end, and he is the one with all the insanely hax feats and statements.

If this was Low 2-C Simon vs. Goku, yeah, he could existence erase on a metaphysical level. But Yoko can't just do that on her own.

Edit: Also, I still think that any of the pre-necro votes based on GargoyleOne's reasoning should be omitted from the results, due to the fact that he used reasoning which now goes against the stated conditions of the battle.

 

[Mickey1940]

It's called sensing energy
Just because she's massive doesn't render Goku blind

<Universal sized being
<Semsing is an argument

It's called "blow her to smitherines"...? yes, she's universal in size, but anyone with universal range (which Goku has) can bypass that. Size isn't everything. Also don't forget that (according to others on this thread) Goku's far stronger than her

It's like comparing the 10 Tails to the Giant Cucco's summons. (reffering to the 10 Tails vs Giant Cucco thread). Each chicken the Giant Cucco summons scales to the original Cucco, who is as strong as the 10 Tails. Meaning a chicken-sized creature can physically stop the 10 Tails, despite the fact that the 10 Tails is likely the size of a large town.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Y'all know that Goku, or anyone that's not Zen'o, busting the universe is suicide, right?

 

[SomebodyData]

Instant Transmissio

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

^That and Goku doesn't even have the range to bust a space-time continuum. His range is only high universal, the Low 2-C comes from scaling.

 

[Mr._Common_Sense]

Instant Transmission would help, but Goku won't have enough time to lock on to a ki signal by the time the universe goes boom. Last time I check Goku has never actually shown statements or feats of Instant Transmission outside of a universe into another universe.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Dude this range argument is all such a moot point because Yoko's mech is NOT EVEN CLOSE TO UNIVERSE SIZED. It is like, large galaxy sized at best. Goku could easily bust something on that level without it being a suicide attack under the stated battle conditions of being in an infinite void with breathable atmosphere.

And everyone is completely ignoring what I pointed out about no one in Gurren Lagann besides Simon (and Kamina that one time he used resurrection hax) having any good showings, statements, feats, etc. when it comes to reality warping or metaphysics manipulation, aside from using it to materialize matter and energy and break a couple of the laws of physics (in the same way that Ki breaks the laws of physics I might add, i.e. allowing for the violation of conservation of mass-energy and for MFTL+ speeds).

Agai we can't just ASSUME Yoko can existence erase, or transmute Goku, or do anything like that when she has never actually demonstrated any such feats with her spiral power! That's not how VsBattles work, we have to go off of actually demonstrated feats or statements! Literally ALL that Yoko has ever freaking done is make some really big guns with really big bullets. How in the world does anybody think that such a piss-poor level of reality warping would be able to beat the likes of MUI Goku? Am I seriously the only one who can see what a stomp this is in Goku's favor?

Lastly, I will point out again that any hax coming from spiral power are limited to the AP tier of that spiral power, so even if Yoko DID have existence erasing reality warping hax (which again, she doesn't), it still wouldn't be any better than a God of Destruction's hakai.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

 

[SchroKatze]

GoD Hakai is pretty basic and weak EE tho. I know a 7-A that has better EE stronger than that.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

GoD Hakai is pretty basic and weak EE tho. I know a 7-A that has better EE stronger than that.

And? Unless Yoko's is conceptual, there's no difference between it and Hakai.

 

[Goodyfresh]

GoD Hakai is pretty basic and weak EE tho. I know a 7-A that has better EE stronger than that.

And? Unless Yoko's is conceptual, there's no difference between it and Hakai.

Exactly. But dudes, AGAIN, it's like you are all completely ignoring my logic, namely that the whole idea of "existence erasure" or other offensive uses of reality or metaphysics manipulation is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT here anyways!

Since WHEN does Yoko have ANY reality warping or metaphysics feats or statements indicating that she can perform existence erasure, transmutation, or anything else especially useful like that? Seriously. Name ONE instance of where she demonstrated being able to use reality warping for anything besides matter/energy manipulation, violation of conservation of mass-energy, and violation of the light-speed limit, and I will shut up about this. But I have watched TTGL literally like seven freaking times and I know darn well that there are literally no such instances. All she has ever done is materialize really big freaking guns and like. . . .giant mecha boob-missiles if I recall, which was ridiculous.

Considering that moving at MFTL+ speeds, violating conservation of energy (which any Ki User in DBS can do as well), and her big freaking guns and her giant boob-missiles are literally the only freaking things she can do with her piss-poor so-called "reality warping," the idea that she would have any chance against Goku is completely laughable, to be quite honest. To be honest, he could even beat her using nothing more than Blue Kaio-Ken x 20, and she wouldn't even be able to put a scratch on him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Multipliers in general fall apart once you reach tier 2... Kaio Ken x20 is far less impressive than you believe it to be once the power reaches infinity. It's the scaling that matters now.

 

[Mickey1940]

lol boob missles

Also, DragonEmperor, I'll add your vote

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Can't Yoko just think the dude out of existence?

Judging from what has been said, no.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

There's also the fact that GoD Toppo is barely above baseline Low 2-C, yet he was able to nearly beat SSBE Vegeta, who's equal o SSBKKx20 Goku.

 

[Schnee_One]

Judging from what has been said, no.

Look at the date of my post

 

[DragonEmperor23]

ik, it's just that other people are using that in votes so I used that to show any new comers who were reading the entirety from the start.

 

[SchroKatze]

EE via RW >> Just "muh energy erases u gg powah can be resisted by anything thats 0,00000000001% stronger than me."

 

[SchroKatze]

Kyoko doesn't just EE, but if she used that, Goku would just get erased. Any hax in DB has the weakness of "It can't affect something stronger than the user". Thats a basic thing in the verse. he didn't resist, the in-verse "law" (not really a law, but a common thing that always happens) that let him resist EE from weaker characters such as Sidra.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Why are you bringing up something she doesn't even do?

 

[Goodyfresh]

There's also the fact that GoD Toppo is barely above baseline Low 2-C, yet he was able to nearly beat SSBE Vegeta, who's equal o SSBKKx20 Goku.

Cal, I hate to argue with someone as prominent and respected on this site as you (especially about something which is tangential to the actual thread itself) and am already starting to regret it, but *deep breath* here goes nothing:

So where are you getting this from, exactly? GoD Toppo is SUPERIOR (even in terms of physical striking strength and normal ki blasts i.e. not JUST with hakai) to Beyond Blue Vegeta before he got his rage/pride power-up during their fight. Like, before Vegeta got the rage-power-up, Toppo was smacking him around like a freaking ragdoll without even using the Energy of Destruction (go re-watch the fight if you don't believe me, I remember very clearly that he didn't use Hakai against Vegeta until the latter got his rage-power-up). And even pre-rage-power-up Beyond Blue Vegeta is on-par with Blue Kaio Ken x 20 Goku at that point as you stated, meaning he is WELL above baseline Low 2-C, so to say that GoD Toppo is somehow only "barely" above baseline seems pretty illogical.

Much more relevant to this actual thread itself: Saying the multipliers don't matter because the power is infinte anyway is kind of a logical fallacy here due to the demonstrated mechanics of the verse in DBS. Fact is, infinite power or not, Blue Kaio Ken x 20 Goku is in some sense or another "20 times as powerful" as Blue Goku, for the simple reason that infinite power levels in DBS are still treated as if they are somehow quantifiable in comparison to one another despite that not making any logical sense, that is just part of the verse's portrayal of Ki. Even if we don't wanna use multipliers, we know that Infinite Zamasu is baseline, and MUI Goku > UI Sign Goku > GoD Toppo > Pre-Rage Beyond Blue Vegeta = (approximately) Blue Kaio Ken x 20 Goku >>> Infinite Zamasu, so GoD Toppo is actually way above baseline (even without Hakai).

Edit: Isn't it also pretty much an accepted fact at this point on this wiki that Low 2-C Beyond Blue Vegeta and Blue Kaio-Ken x 20 Goku, as well as by extention anyone in DBS at or above their level (like Goku with UI Sign or MUI), is way above baseline Low 2-C? I mean, that's been the basis for a lot of Low 2-C Goku's vsbattle victories on this site so far, the idea that he is well above baseline. So I don't see why we even need to argue about this, the fact is that MUI Goku is waaaay above the level of Low 2-C that Yoko is at, and even Blue KK x 20 Goku is, for that matter. And since as we've established we have no evidence that Yoko can use her reality-warping offensively, she really has no way to beat Goku.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Its no problem, man. I'm not anything special. Like, this is a versus debating site. I'm not like, a politician who's opinion actually matters lol.

It's because GoD Toppo is < actual GoDs, who themselves are only > Infinite Zamasu and we're inferior to the first showing of Jiren's power, who isn't that pinnacle of superiority he is later.

 

[Elizhaa]

Just a quicky; Yoko Littner's Probability Manipulation should be similar to Kitta's who destroyed the Spiral Death Field Generator with a 0% chance of success. As unbiased as I can be, I vote for Yoko Littner for this reason.

 

[Goodyfresh]

Just a quicky; Yoko Littner's Probability Manipulation should be similar to Kitta's who destroyed the Spiral Death Field Generator with a 0% chance of success. As unbiased as I can be, I vote for Yoko Littner for this reason.

OHHHHH, good point, I guess with that in mind her probability manip should actually be pretty good.

I still don't think she can actually hurt Goku though, due to the massive difference in their level of Low 2-C standing. I mean, what's the point of her being able to manipulate probability so every shot is perfectly aimed at him, if he has the necessary AP and Dura to just destroy or tank every one of those shots? Again remember, she is barely above baseline Low 2-C while MUI Goku is WAAAY above baseline.

I mean yeah, Kittan had a 0% chance of success, buuuut he still had to have the necessary AP to actually damage and destroy the generator. WIthout that sufficient AP, his probability manipulation wouldn't have been enough for him to take out the generator, ya know? As far as we know, the probability-manipulation in TTGL is not able to negate durability. Except maybe when Simon uses it since he is pretty much the God of that verse, but even that is just speculation.

Edit: It is starting to look like this battle might end up being inconclusive, although this doesn't sit well with me because personally speaking I think that it should be a massive stomp in Goku's favor due to the aforementioned gigantic AP and Dura advantage that he has.

 

[Mickey1940]

The Real Cat Howard

GoD Toppo is vastly superior to initial UIS Goku, who is baseline Low 2C, so how tf can Toppo himself only be baseline Low 2C? Also, why does it matter that Toppo is baseline, since MUIS Goku is vastly superior to him?