Yogiri Takatou vs Battler Ushiromiya (Umineko )

[Tarang123]

Beatrice had High 1B with Endless magic, so it would make sense for Battler to be the same

 

[Alice_the_Eternal_Sleep]

No.

 

[Rez]

Yogiri resists things that conceptually null things. Hell, literally like every ability in instant death is conceptual

Was it type 1 concept manip? His profile doesn't mention which type he can resist.

 

[Rez]

Ok so I looked it up and yogiri does resist type 1 concept manip

 

[Tarang123]

No.

Lol

 

[DaReaperMan]

Ain't Yogiri like, REALLY high into countless? Like, can beat Warhammer 1-Bs into countless?

 

[Phoenks]

He's so "far into countless" that it should be assumed to be High 1-B rather than just 1-B imo.

 

[Darksmash]

Endless 9 isn't High 1-B. Beatrice is only "potentially High 1-B" based on an assumption that endless magic can grant her infinite evolution (although it makes no sense imo). Endless 9 itself isnt even related to endless magic as far as I remember

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Endless 9 isn't High 1-B. Beatrice is only "potentially High 1-B" based on an assumption that endless magic can grant her infinite evolution (although it makes no sense imo). Endless 9 itself isnt even related to endless magic as far as I remember

Endless Nine is 1-B.

 

[HalilAssassino]

E9 is High 1-B. This is because it scales to truths that are High 1-B. This was the reason why E9 was 1-A+ before umineko downgrade, nothing has changed now. Still E9 scales to truths. At least until truths stops to be smurf hax.

 

[Teezar]

E9 is High 1-B. This is because it scales to truths that are High 1-B. This was the reason why E9 was 1-A+ before umineko downgrade, nothing has changed now. Still E9 scales to truths. At least until truths stops to be smurf hax.

The visual novels seems kinda better than manga and I never knew endless 9 works on truth.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

The visual novels seems kinda better than manga and I never

Normally, even if Anime and manga adapt LN or WN, we always use the Novels as the primary source of evidences. Becouse Anime and mangas tend to change lots of things, such as statements, whereas in the anime/manga the character says something completely different from the novel.

Manga and Cinematic adaptations are heavy downplayers for some verses such as MCU Thanos, Anos Voldigoad, etc....

That's why it's better to don't use them as a reference for scaling, becouse characters are Weak AF

 

[Darksmash]

E9 is High 1-B. This is because it scales to truths that are High 1-B. This was the reason why E9 was 1-A+ before umineko downgrade, nothing has changed now. Still E9 scales to truths. At least until truths stops to be smurf hax.

That was when Endless 9 was combined with Golden Truth. It didn't do it by itself. It's also highly unlikely for truths to retain their position considering the argument is just dumb

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

That was when Endless 9 was combined with Golden Truth. It didn't do it by itself. It's also highly unlikely for truths to retain their position considering the argument it just dumb

Golden truths still High 1-B I think

 

[Darksmash]

Normally, even if Anime and manga adapt LN or WN, we always use the Novels as the primary source of evidences. Becouse Anime and mangas tend to change lots of things, such as statements, whereas in the anime/manga the character says something completely different from the novel.

Ryukishi literally calls the Manga the final answer though

 

[Darksmash]

Golden truths still High 1-B I think

I would say they are unknown for now, since the position of Oblivion hasn't been decided either.

 

[Darksmash]

Nevertheless made it possible with E9. I also think it should be specific to Ange only. Bernkastel is surprised by Ange's E9, despite seeing and knowing the Battler's E9 beforehand. This clearly shows that Ange's E9 is special than Battler's E9.

The reason it was special was because it was combined with Golden Truth. That's why Bernkastel immediately talks about the Golden Truth after that. As far as I know Endless 9 has never tanked truths without Golden Truth.

 

[HalilAssassino]

The reason it was special was because it was combined with Golden Truth. That's why Bernkastel immediately talks about the Golden Truth after that. As far as I know Endless 9 has never tanked truths without Golden Truth.

I know. E9 is there to reset extraordinary attacks made outside the truths but Ange can reject the red truth in a special way by combining her E9 with the golden truth but Battler has never had such a success, despite already using E9 against Bernkastel. And Bernkastel was also particularly surprised at only Ange's E9 because E9 that Ange has is special. So I don't know why we pretend that the Battler's E9 is the same as the Ange's E9 even though there is no evidence, support or success that he can use the E9 in his Battler as Ange did. so i think only Ange's E9 should scale to the truths not Battler's E9.

 

[FallenMaou2234]

So Yogiri stomps via saying "Die" anything else??

 

[Darksmash]

I know. E9 is there to reset extraordinary attacks made outside the truths but Ange can reject the red truth in a special way by combining her E9 with the golden truth but Battler has never had such a success, despite already using E9 against Bernkastel. And Bernkastel was also particularly surprised at only Ange's E9 because E9 that Ange has is special. So I don't know why we pretend that the Battler's E9 is the same as the Ange's E9 even though there is no evidence, support or success that he can use the E9 in his Battler as Ange did. so i think only Ange's E9 should scale to the truths not Battler's E9.

I don't see why it wouldn't be. The point of EP 8 was that Battler wanted to teach Ange a lesson. That's why he threw his fight against Bern iirc. Battler can use both Endless 9 and Golden Truth, and I see no reason for him being unable to combine them like Ange. Ange merely did what she did because she was supposed to be the star of the show in EP 8

 

[HalilAssassino]

I don't see why it wouldn't be. The point of EP 8 was that Battler wanted to teach Ange a lesson. That's why he threw his fight against Bern iirc. Battler can use both Endless 9 and Golden Truth, and I see no reason for him being unable to combine them like Ange. Ange merely did what she did because she was supposed to be the star of the show in EP 8

The lesson that Battler wanted to give Ange was definitely not how to use E9. If he had such a purpose, he would have combined E9 with the golden truth and showed it to Ange, but he could not. All it does is just use normal E9. Also, E9 doesn't need to learn how to use it because exactly at the end of ep 3 he himself was already able to use E9. Bernkastel also knows that can use Battler's E9 and golden truth but was especially surprised at only Ange. Because this is a special case that only Ange shows so we have no evidence that Battler can use it either.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

@Darksmash so who do you think is gonna win ? You still didn't vote yet

 

[Phoenks]

Mismatch

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

on epic proportions.

 

[Darksmash]

The lesson that Battler wanted to give Ange was definitely not how to use E9. If he had such a purpose, he would have combined E9 with the golden truth and showed it to Ange, but he could not. All it does is just use normal E9. Also, E9 doesn't need to learn how to use it because exactly at the end of ep 3 he himself was already able to use E9. Bernkastel also knows that can use Battler's E9 and golden truth but was especially surprised at only Ange. Because this is a special case that only Ange shows so we have no evidence that Battler can use it either.

Well I disagree but this debate isn't really needed for the topic of this thread so let's leave it.

@Darksmash so who do you think is gonna win ? You still didn't vote yet

I don't know enough about Yogiri to say who would win. Although the question is can Yogiri resist powernull on his own plane of existence? Because Umineko characters can pretty much just negate hax of lower layers

 

[Tarang123]

I don't know enough about Yogiri to say who would win. Although the question is can Yogiri resist powernull on his own plane of existence? Because Umineko characters can pretty much just negate hax of lower layers

There’s also the other ridiculous hax that battler has other than just endless 9

 

[Gohanblanco217]

. Although the question is can Yogiri resist powernull on his own plane of existence?

Nope he never did

 

[Tarang123]

Nope he never did

Doesn’t Yogiri have his own power null? That along with some of his other hax might save him for some time. But yeah, endless magic is currently rated at High 1B, so Battler should passively neg

 

[YungManzi]

Nope he never did

UEG has PNull, and undoubtably, it wouldn't have worked on Yogiri. Then again, Yogiri and UEG aren't on the same plane of existence. Despite being countless into 1-B herself, she could never approach Yogiri (Which is why some people argued High 1-B Yogiri, but it was rejected and just considered really high into 1-B)

 

[Darksmash]

endless magic is currently rated at High 1B,

It isn't

UEG has PNull, and undoubtably, it wouldn't have worked on Yogiri. Then again, Yogiri and UEG aren't on the same plane of existence. Despite being countless into 1-B herself, she could never approach Yogiri (Which is why some people argued High 1-B Yogiri, but it was rejected and just considered really high into 1-B)

This makes it troublesome, since Yogiri can still resist powernull from countless 1-B beings but they aren't on his own plane of existence. Battler here would also be countless 1-B and he won't be able to harm Yogiri if the latter is on a higher plane. Which effectively makes this match inconclusive until we introduce an equalisation such as equalising their planes of existence, which would mean Battler will likely win in that case

 

[Tarang123]

It isn't

Check Beatrice’s profile.

 

[Darksmash]

Check Beatrice’s profile.

As I said Beatrice is a special case. There is a reason it isn't High 1-B on Battler's profile

 

[Tarang123]

As I said Beatrice is a special case. There is a reason it isn't High 1-B on Battler's profile

Checked again, and yeah you’re right. My bad then

 

[Teezar]

Normally, even if Anime and manga adapt LN or WN, we always use the Novels as the primary source of evidences. Becouse Anime and mangas tend to change lots of things, such as statements, whereas in the anime/manga the character says something completely different from the novel.

Manga and Cinematic adaptations are heavy downplayers for some verses such as MCU Thanos, Anos Voldigoad, etc....

That's why it's better to don't use them as a reference for scaling, becouse characters are Weak AF

But all are still canon and I see mangas and animes better as they tend to show the feat better than the novel.

 

[Gohanblanco217]

It isn't

This makes it troublesome, since Yogiri can still resist powernull from countless 1-B beings but they aren't on his own plane of existence. Battler here would also be countless 1-B and he won't be able to harm Yogiri if the latter is on a higher plane. Which effectively makes this match inconclusive until we introduce an equalisation such as equalising their planes of existence, which would mean Battler will likely win in that case

So you vote incon?

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Bump

Yogiri :

Battler :

Incon : 1

 

[QuasiYuri]

But all are still canon and I see mangas and animes better as they tend to show the feat better than the novel.

They are only canon if they are said to be so. In Umi case both VN n manga are canon.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Also Yogiri stomps. E9 isn't Endless Magic and I don't remember High 1-B Truths being validated (since the page still has the outdated 1-A+).

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

don't remember High 1-B Truths being validated (since the page still has the outdated 1-A+)

Well Truths are still being discussed, no? People are agreeing that the thing is Smurf Hax

 

[Gohanblanco217]

Also Yogiri stomps. E9 isn't Endless Magic and I don't remember High 1-B Truths being validated (since the page still has the outdated 1-A+).

What about @Darksmash arguments ? :

This makes it troublesome, since Yogiri can still resist powernull from countless 1-B beings but they aren't on his own plane of existence. Battler here would also be countless 1-B and he won't be able to harm Yogiri if the latter is on a higher plane. Which effectively makes this match inconclusive until we introduce an equalisation such as equalising their planes of existence, which would mean Battler will likely win in that case