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Yogiri takatou(Base/Avatar) vs Homura Akemi

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Beast_Zero_Gudako said:
Higher dimension as in what? Each universe is 4-D or something?

Each Puella Universe also has Higher Dimension stuff like Heaven, the kind of afterlife in PMMM which https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tart can access it. They also has "Hell", the counterpart of Heaven which https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Riz can access it.
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It is a dimension beyond everything else in a Heavenly Record (which is at least a 4-D construct). Even places like Heaven and Hell would be considered way inferior to this dimension as it encompasses everything that exists within a Heavenly Record. This is also why a universe in ID isn't called a universe, but a 'Heavenly Record', as it is a record of infinite timelines and multiple separate dimensions like Hell.
 
Beast_Zero_Gudako said:
So it's like a universe that is branches into multiple route or something?
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Consider Heavenly Record as a vessel that contains a main universe as well as every possible different version of it (basically parallel worlds/different timelines).
 
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Then it is EXACTLY the same as the one in PMMM.

I already explained above that each action took within a timeline gave birth to a different version. I also explain how said timeline got branches off infinitely (The whole thing with Prankster Homura multiplied by Infinite just by one divergent happened).

Just because it is called something else other than universe doesn't make it different. The only difference is that Puella has more than ID.

Also just noticed that this conversation is basically pointless when HRE is only 2-C to 2-B, so a single HR contains Infinite possibilities is rather doubtful.
 
The parallel I gave in the Madoka fight basically summarized why I don't agree with the notion being pushed of "Yogiri doesn't have the range to affect all of her".

That being: I've never heard of hax like Death manipulation or Existence Erasure not working just because of large size that's on the same dimensional axis as the hax. If you're within range, then you can get hit, there is no in-between bullshit. No- "Oh she starts within Yogiri's range, but he can't effect all of her because she's bigger than his range."

Like, being the size of a planet doesn't prevent hax from working if you start within the hax's range.
 
It's not about NOT affecting her, it's about not ENOUGH to kill her. It's like you kills one cell in a human body is not enough to kill said human.

Yogiri can kills a very tiny portion of Madoka, but that's it. It's going to do...basically nothing to Madoka. He literally lacks of range to reach other "part" of Madoka.
 
That's not how hax like Death and EE works though, they're not cellular manipulation or affecting parts of a substance, they affect the whole thing in its entirety.

In fact, I'd be okay with this having it's own discussion thread.
 
YungManzi said:
That's not how hax like Death and EE works though, they're not cellular manipulation or affecting parts of a substance, they affect the whole thing in its entirety.

In fact, I'd be okay with this having it's own discussion thread.
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A Humam sized energy that erased some existence those who touched it can never kill someone the size of planet. Because of what? It's because they lacks the AoE to affect the whole thing.

Has ID ever fully affect something as big as Madoka? No. Because he lacks the AoE, and killing a tiny bit of an Abstraction is never enough to fully kill them. His ID AoE doesn't magically buffed just because he can affects tiny bit of Madoka.

You're pushing NLF here.
 
He's not killing a tiny bit, he's killing her, because she's within his range.

You know what, I won't respond here. Let me know if someone makes a thread talking about this.
 
And ID has literally zero feat FULLY affecting abstraction as big as Madoka, because what? ID lacks the necessary AoE to do so.

Not fully destroying Abstraction = not killing Madoka.

I could go on forever.
 
Beast_Zero_Gudako said:
Then it is EXACTLY the same as the one in PMMM.

I already explained above that each action took within a timeline gave birth to a different version. I also explain how said timeline got branches off infinitely (The whole thing with Prankster Homura multiplied by Infinite just by one divergent happened).
Click to expand...

It's not exactly like PMMM, because PMMM doesn't have any such higher information dimension that is beyond every timeline and dimension within each of its universe. Also, the name isn't different just for the sake of it, as a Heavenly Record is inherently different from what you think.

And ID has literally zero feat FULLY affecting abstraction as big as Madoka, because what? ID lacks the necessary AoE to do so.
Click to expand...

I've already said that having more multiverses means nothing in this case, and even if we were to agree that it matters, ID has multiple feats of reaching the source of the target by targeting the connection between them. So just as Yung said, she'd be fully dead once she gets hit by it:-> ID would make several jumps, covering its maximum range with each jump, and trail the connection to put an end to the entirety of its target; so long as she's a 2-A existence, she simply can't escape from it.
 
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It's not exactly like PMMM, because PMMM doesn't have any such higher information dimension that is beyond every timeline and dimension within each of its universe. Also, the name isn't different just for the sake of it, as a Heavenly Record is inherently different from what you think.
Click to expand...

HR is a just single universe, the higher dimension and HR being Infinite timline stuffs literally contradicted and the fact HRE is just 2-C to 2-C for eating it.

I've already said that having more multiverses means nothing in this case, and even if we were to agree that it matters, ID has multiple feats of reaching the source of the target by targeting the connection between them. So just as Yung said, she'd be fully dead once she gets hit by it.
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It literally means everything as it determined the size of an Abstract existence.

He only has feat reaching connected target as long as they are within/merely the size of baseline 2-A. Your range doesn't magically got buff, you keep pushing the NLF here. There is also the fact that part of Madoka's Abstraction is within a Multiverse that has been conceptually erased, so he ain't reaching her.

ID would make several jumps, covering its maximum range with each jump, and trail the connection to put an end to the entirety of its target; so long as she's a 2-A existence, she simply can't escape from it.
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ID would needs to make literally Infinite times of jump to even hope destroying part of Madoka's abstraction, which was never going to happen given he literally died moment later due to Madoka's Law manip, which was far stronger than anything he ever faced before.

And she is not JUST a 2-A existence, she is a 2-A existence that encompassed mich bigger cosmology than ID. There is literally a HUGE difference between the two.
 
HR is a just single universe, the higher dimension and HR being Infinite timline stuffs literally contradicted and the fact HRE is just 2-C to 2-C for eating it.
Click to expand...

There is no contradiction at all. HR is a conceptual vessel that has its own higher information dimension, while the main universe and other timelines exist within it. It's just that HRE's outdated tier from way before, when we didn't know of the existence of different timelines, hasn't been changed yet (we'll do it in the next revision thread I guess, as Yogiri's profile is also lacking several abilities/resistances that he should have at this point).

He only has feat reaching connected target as long as they are within/merely the size of baseline 2-A. Your range doesn't magically got buff, you keep pushing the NLF here.
Click to expand...

If anyone, it's you who're pushing the NLF by saying that Madoka is definitely bigger than Yogiri, when the "sea" is literally unquantifiable (due to how insignificant the known 2-A multiverse of ID is in comparison). If I were to make assumptions like you, I can say that Yogiri's multiverse is large enough to contain six Puella-level libraries at least; meaning ID verse is at least three times greater than PMMM's.

Also, did you really try to ignore what I mentioned in my first post here? Then, let me remind you again:
According to the rules of the site and the definition of mathematical infinity, no matter how many infinitely-sized multiverses there are, the total number of universes contained within them always remains the same => just 'baseline infinite' (aka, baseline 2-A). Thus, it naturally would only require the same range to influence them as any other baseline 2-A multiverse (and a 2-A tier character already has an attack range that covers a whole baseline 2-A multiverse, regardless of the arrangement of the universes within it).

So, according to what you said yourself ("He only has feat reaching connected target as long as they are within/merely the size of baseline 2-A"), Yogiri can 100% affect the entirety of Puella verse in one go. Don't go back on your words now.

And she is not JUST a 2-A existence, she is a 2-A existence that encompassed mich bigger cosmology than ID. There is literally a HUGE difference between the two.
Click to expand...

Yes, she is JUST a 2-A existence according to the rules of the site and the definition of mathematical infinity. So, there's literally no difference between the cosmology of the two series.
 
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Honestly this is kinda debatable, and we should Instant Death novel to finish first. There is new character in ID that was said to be higher dimensional existence and was said to be not from the world of the 'sea' where heavenly records exist, but rather different world that have different law (I still kinda confused of what author mean in this one, hopefully he explain more in future chapter). It seems that there is possibility ID verse will be lot bigger than it seems, then again the fight should in hold as the ID novel is not even finished yet.
 
Muhsula said:
Honestly this is kinda debatable, and we should Instant Death novel to finish first. There is new character in ID that was said to be higher dimensional existence and was said to be not from the world of the 'sea' where heavenly records exist, but rather different world that have different law (I still kinda confused of what author mean in this one, hopefully he explain more in future chapter). It seems that there is possibility ID verse will be lot bigger than it seems, then again the fight should in hold as the ID novel is not even finished yet.
Click to expand...

Of course, the ID verse could be bigger than what we know now, but the point is that it doesn't even matter here when the opponent is just another baseline 2-A existence.
 
There is no contradiction at all. HR is a conceptual vessel that has its own higher information dimension, while the main universe and other timelines exist within it. It's just that HRE's outdated tier from way before, when we didn't know of the existence of different timelines, hasn't been changed yet (we'll do it in the next revision thread I guess, as Yogiri's profile is also lacking several abilities/resistances.
Click to expand...

I'm using what's on the profile now. HRE is currently rated 2-C to 2-B, it's even weaker than https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Calamity, who got fodderized by Madoka. Yogiri beating bunches of 2-C to 2-B is less impressive in comparison due him being 2-A (The gap between 2-B and 2-A is literally Infinite).

If the profile is outdated, then this thread shouldn't even be made to begin, saving some troubles and headaches.

If anyone, it's you who're pushing the NLF by saying that Madoka is definitely bigger than Yogiri, when the "sea" is literally unquantifiable (due to how insignificant the known 2-A multiverse of ID is in comparison). If I were to make assumptions like you, I can say that Yogiri's multiverse is large enough to contain six Puella-level libraries at least; meaning ID verse is at least three times greater than PMMM's.
Click to expand...

The "sea" thing is just baseline, even the revision thread said so. It just a space that contains baseline 2-A Multiverse and a bunches of 2-C to 2-B creatures that eat them. It's not even comparable to Puella "Libraries" cosmology, which contains Infinite 2-A Multiverse with each universe can branches off into another set of Infinite alternate universes.

So yes, it is NLF for Yogiri to fully affects Madoka with baseline range.

Also, did you really try to ignore what I mentioned in my first post here? Then, let me remind you again:
Click to expand...
According to the rules of the site and the definition of mathematical infinity, no matter how many infinitely-sized multiverses there are, the total number of universes contained within them always remains the same => just 'baseline infinite' (aka, baseline 2-A). Thus, it naturally would only require the same range to influence them as any other baseline 2-A multiverse (and a 2-A tier character already has an attack range that covers a whole baseline 2-A multiverse, regardless of the arrangement of the universes within it).

And didn't I already told you those merely refers to AP. Puella has been explicitly and canonnicaly states to have more Multiverse and they are separates from each other. Site rules cannot disregard what has been states and shown in Canon.

So, according to what you said yourself ("He only has feat reaching connected target as long as they are within/merely the size of baseline 2-A"), Yogiri can 100% affect the entirety of Puella verse in one go. Don't go back on your words now.
Click to expand...

No, he can't.

You said it yourself Yorigi ID needs to make several jumps, which in this case, literally Infinite times. He can never fully destroy Madoka nor will he has the chance to do so when he literally dies immediately from Madoka Law hax.

Yes, she is JUST a 2-A existence according to the rules of the site and the definition of mathematical infinity. So, there's literally no difference between the cosmology of the two series.
Click to expand...

No, she is not.

Rules cannot disregard on what has been shown and stated in canon materials. Deal with it.
 
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The "sea" thing is just baseline, even the revision thread said so. It just a space that contains baseline 2-A Multiverse and a bunches of 2-C to 2-B creatures that eat them. It's not even comparable to Puella "Libraries" cosmology, which contains Infinite 2-A Multiverse with each universe can branches off into another set of Infinite alternate universes.
Click to expand...

Unless you quote a line that I don't remember, nowhere in the revision thread was it 'declared' that the "sea" is baseline 2-A; it's just that no one discussed any further about it being Low 1-C, as everyone was focused on discussing whether Yogiri himself is Low 1-C (and we don't have enough context to support the point that he transcends the sea, so his tier was left at 2-A). In any case, since every verse that only has "countably infinite" universes would be considered baseline 2-A, it doesn't matter to begin with.

Besides, the whole setup of libraries with infinite bookshelves is in itself a restriction to the size of the libraries (as the bookshelves would cover a good part of the library, if not completely fill it), while the "sea" has no such restriction (as the 2-A multiverse in ID is basically non-existent in comparison to the sea). So it's actually the Puella libraries cosmology that is in the inferior position.

Also, unlike in PMMM where there's no difference in the level of the universes, in ID verse, the higher a Heavenly Record (universe) exists in the "sea", the higher level it is compared to the ones below (thus, you need an unbelievable amount of energy to travel from a lower to a higher universe, while it's not much of an issue to travel from a higher to a lower one or to travel to universes at the same level, if you have the means/ability to travel from one universe to another). No matter how strong you are in your universe, a higher level universe would be inaccessible to you without enough energy to carry you over there (it's so difficult that Yogiri's party is trying to get a 2-A existence [UEG, the ex-ruler of the ID multiverse] help them go back to their higher level universe). The universes in PMMM would only be the ones that are found at a very deep level of the "sea", and thus are the lowest level universes, as there's no similar infinite-hierarchy system in the PMMM verse (fyi, if the higher universes were outright mentioned to be 'infinitely superior', instead of 'higher level', to the ones that exist at one level lower than them, ID would be a High 1-B verse at least). Thus, Puella verse is simply no match for ID verse.

And didn't I already told you those merely refers to AP. Puella has been explicitly and canonnicaly states to have more Multiverse and they are separates from each other. Site rules cannot disregard what has been states and shown in Canon.
Click to expand...

Are you really not getting where you're wrong? Did you not get why the rule specifically mentioned "in spite of what our intuitions may tell us"?

The number 100 can only be as big as "100", the number 1000 can only be as big as "1000", and similarly a baseline 2-A existence (like Madoka) can only be as big as a "baseline 2-A multiverse". This is such an obvious and simple-to-understand logic that I don't see how anyone would not get it, unless they're deliberately trying to ignore it to prove their own point.

The site isn't disregarding the canon, it's just stating the fact that regardless of the number of multiverses, the size of the verse remains the same -> just baseline 2-A.

You said it yourself Yorigi ID needs to make several jumps, which in this case, literally Infinite times. He can never fully destroy Madoka nor will he has the chance to do so when he literally dies immediately from Madoka Law hax.
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I only said that he needs to 'make jumps' to play along with your flawed logic that Madoka is somehow bigger than him just because of PMMM having more multiverses, which is absolutely wrong factually.

Rules cannot disregard on what has been shown and stated in canon materials. Deal with it.
Click to expand...

Again, rules aren't disregarding anything. They're only stating what is not obvious to those who don't know how infinity works and misunderstand things, like you.

Puella verse is just baseline 2-A, and thus completely vulnerable to Yogiri's attack. Don't make up things on your own, when the facts speak otherwise (even if you don't care about the site rules, you still have to care about the mathematical rules of infinity).
 
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The fact that Yogiri should be Low 1-C according to what the description says in his strongest key (not that I'm actually siding with it, though) makes me wonder if this was a viable match in the first place.
Idk where Instant Death has gone to now with its upgrading shenanigans, but I'll digress from that for now.
 
I think we should just vote now.
If you think ID works vote Yogiri if not vote Homura.
( also Homie FRA.)
 
Not being discussed enough is more then enough for it to not be on the file.

You have to be accepted for it to be on the file, even if it isn’t rejected it can’t be added on if it isn’t accepted by other staff.
 
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