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Cosmology​

So, it seems the cosmology was translated as having "countless heavenly records". However, as I was reading the raws I found this kanji: 無数

その天盤は無数に存在していて、その天盤を内包するのが、"海"と呼ばれる空間だった。天盤は、"海"の中に浮かぶ泡のようなものなのだ。

無数 = Countless / Innumerable / No Number / Infinite

Quoting from Gemstic:

"It has been made clear in ISSTH that when we're talking about cosmology, 無数 ( 无数 in Chinese) is better translated as "infinite". Furthermore, 無数 in itself also means 'infinite number' in Japanese, so this further shows that "infinite" should very reasonably be the correct translation here. Something like 途方もない数 (as in Maou Gakuin) or 数え切れない would be used to mean 'countless' in such a case.

Here's one more point that shows that the author actually meant 'infinite' universes, not 'countless' (that is to say, he meant: 無数 => 無 [No] + 数 [Number] => No-Number => Infinite). A Deep Sea Fish (HRE) eats universes over an eternity in the 'sea', and since we'e talking about a 'sea', there could be a countless number of them just like the fishes in an actual sea (or ocean). So, it would make a lot more sense for a Multiverse to have infinite universes when potentially countless beings such as the Deap Sea Fishes continue to eat countless universes endlessly."

I believe this should bump the cosmology to 2-B, possibly 2-A, since the kanji used can also imply Infinity. This by proxy would bump Yogiri's tier to 2-A (or 2-B, possibly 2-A), considering that the only thing stopping him from becoming a vortex of death destroying all of creation is that he has a human will. Plus, his power is a manifestation of its true form and depicted as "the end of everything".

While we are at it, the heavenly records are stated to be conceptual in nature. Not only that, but each conceptual space-time is covered by a dome/canopy. And above that, the hierarchy itself was stated to be conceptual. I believe this would qualify for Type 2 concepts, considering how the hierarchy itself would be a higher-order concept compared to the already conceptual space-times and the dome/canopy that exists as the vessel of the world, existing outside the heavenly records. MokoMoko also refers to them as the "higher-order information layer". Additionally, Yogiri's true form is a concept that exists since the beginning and will still exist even after the end of everything, which seems qualifies it for the "transcendent of reality" part as well.

It is a conceptual thing; for example, Yogiri and the others appear in the Heavenly Record for the universe of their original world, but for the world they are in now, they appear on the ground and sea directly on top of the Heavenly Record.
~ V3
Heavenly Records were covered in a firm shell called the canopy, but for a Heavenly Record eater that had eaten many worlds for each canopy, opening a very small hole and entering inside was easy.
~ V3
『That is why the Heavenly Records are surrounded by a boundary called the dome. This is a bubble which floats in the “Sea” in that analogy from long ago.』(Mokomoko)
~ V3
『Since I am a high-ranking divine spirit, I am able to access the higher-order information layer. Consequently, it can be said that I understand the system of the entire world of Heavenly Records.』(Mokomoko)
~ V3
There is a conceptual hierarchy of worlds, a flow of power from the top to the bottom. When moving from the world above to the world below, you only need to fall down, but to move up, you need enough energy to go against the flow. It seems that in the world's hierarchical structure, this world is located at the bottom. Therefore, it would take a lot of energy to return to the world of Yogiri and the others.
~ V9
He wasn’t just an existence.
He was a phenomenon similar to a curse or calamity that was hard to describe. He had a personality, it wasn’t the case where he was pretending to be a human being.
Then the answer was simple. They had existed in all space and time since the beginning. Could it be a curse, or perhaps a contamination?
That person stands until the end, as it was his demise.
No one was able to do anything beyond that person.
"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

It is said that can kill the target with just a thought.

When she first heard of it, it sounded really stupid to her. She thought it only appeared so because of the great difference in the strength between the target and the killer.

She thought there should be some kind of trick to that ability. She was under the impression that once she is done with unraveling and analyzing the ability, she would be able to come up with a counterplan and deal with it one way or another with her own ability.

However, she couldn't have been any more naïve.

She finally realized after personally taking a look.

No matter what it is, it'd die if that wishes so. There is no thing or phenomenon that would be allowed to exist if it was denied by that."

Now, this might be a stretch, but since Yogiri's true form is beyond the scope of the infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records (as well as being a transcendent concept), plus being impercetible/incomprehensible from the pov of 4-D beings, this could probably give him Low 1-C (or possibly Low 1-C). Im not so sure about that myself, though. Take it with a grain of salt. Basically:

heavenly records = 4D
Total heavenly records = 4D*Infinity
Sea = Higher conceptual dimension beyond the heavenly records, and encompasses them.
Yogiri’s true form = Beyond the scope of the Sea and all the 4-D beings that resides on it


Power Additions​


Sion​

Immortality (Type 4):

“I won’t say such a thing… But I still don’t think you can beat me. You should just be obedient and kill each other if you want a better chance of survival.”
“Die!”

Seiichi unleashed his power.

Shion swayed to the side.

That was all.

“It…it didn’t work! You liar!”

“No-no. It worked just fine. I could have killed you before you even used your power, but I let you do it on purpose. After all, I am quite interested in this instant death power.”

“Damn you! Why won’t you die!”

“As I said, it did work. In fact, I died just a moment ago. Of course, isn’t it the normal thing to come back to life after you’ve died?”

“Die! DIE-DIE-DIE-DIE-DIE!”

Seiichi unleashed his power over and over again.

However, Shion continued to walk towards him.

“Wh-what’s happening! What the hell are you!”

“Ah, that’s right. I haven’t told you about my power. I suppose you could call it a pulse linked level up? You level up with every beat of your heart. When this happens, your energy, health, and all status ailments are healed. And you come back to life if you happen to be dead.”

Seiichi was shouting ‘die’ nonstop as if it was the only word in his vocabulary. There was nothing else that he could do.

Shion didn’t seem to care as she continued to move closer.
Energy Projection:

First, she had to get rid of the fools that dared break the rules she had set.
Shion turned the palm of her hand towards Yogiri.
It was nothing too flashy. Only a bullet of light made of compressed excess magical power. She wouldn’t need to use any other of her techniques, her usual attack should do just fine.
Her palm began to shine and the bullet of light began to shape itself.
Then it vanished.
The bullet disappeared completely before she was able to shoot it at full speed.
“That’s annoying, so please stop it. I might end up killing you if you don’t.”
At last, Shion began to come to terms with reality.
Teleportation:

Youichi was surprised by the images he was looking at on the screen.
“Oh, I see. Judging from the amount of destruction, I’d say it was an atomic bomb.”
The wall that was supposed to be there had been blown away.
Most of the trees in the forest had vanished as well, so the center of the explosion must have been around that area.
“And those guys are just walking around such a place…”
“Though you say that, it’s an isolated space where you can exercise as much power as you want without worrying about the public gaze. This is the only place where you can launch such a powerful attack.”
If someone is this awake, they would be far from becoming a sage. That’s what Shion thought, at least.
“Well then. Let’s go, shall we?”
Shion thought that there was a chance that such an attack could happen again. That’s how well the threat that sages pose has been made known.
But they had crossed the line.
Both Takato Yogiri and Hanakawa Daimon had crossed the borders and escaped the range of the selection game.
Shion got up from her sofa.
After that, she moved to a more open spot.
This was so that she wouldn’t drag furniture along while teleporting.
Shion was able to teleport to places she had been before. But that had nothing to do with that place that they call Hell.
“Hey. Is it really okay to go to that place?”
“You really worry too much sometimes, Youichi.”
No sage could be damaged under such circumstances. If she weren’t able to survive in such an environment, then she wasn’t worthy of the title of sage.
Shion smiled lightly at a worried Youichi, and teleported to the place where those runaways were.
~ Chapter 100
Yogiri threatened Shion with an indifferent expression. Then, Shion suddenly vanished.
She had probably teleported elsewhere. She must have been in quite a hurry, since she took a good chunk of the ground that was around her along with her. It seemed as if everything around the spot where she had been simply got torn apart as it got mixed up along with Shion as she disappeared.
“Wait! She got away! We should have known better, she did appear instantly when she came here, so of course, she can go back just as quickly!”
Hanakawa’s surprise could be heard as he spoke.
“It’s okay.”
Yogiri was sure Shion would return.
~ Chapter 118
Flight:

She was so irritated that her head was about to burn off, but she had to lock those feelings away deep inside her chest.
Shion began to fly. After the corridor, she got up some stairs and headed for her room on the second floor.
~ Chapter 118
Forcefield Creation + Spatial Manipulation:

But she had not expected that power to work on her.
Several layers of magical barriers protect her from any and all sorts of attacks, and even if something were to go through all of them, there is still a dimensional distortion. And even then, in the unlikely event that she was hurt or even dying by anything that somehow managed to get past all of that, she would recover instantly.

Reality Warping:

She had assumed that there were no unrealistic events that she could not predict.
She should be able to replace such events with something else and distort reality within the scope of her imagination.
Shion considered this event a temporary defect, an error that has a very small chance of actually happening. She tried to assume that such a convenient delusion was a fact.

Sages​

Immortality (Type 8) & Regeneration (Low-Godly):

Sages who hold their stone within their bodies are said to have been almost immortalized by the stone’s power. Their deaths meant that their stones had run out of power.
~ Chapter 119
"I'm just saying. If there's a Sage Stone inside you, you can't be killed.

The sages use the Sage Stone as a source of energy.

It gives the sage's body unlimited regenerative power.
~ Chapter 196

"Unlimited Regeneration" in the context of sages is Low-Godly

Fate Value

People with high fate value gets plot manip, since their lives are dictacted by a meta-story that makes them essentially become the protagonists of the world.

Ayaka Shinozaki​

Transformation:
Calm down. First of all, you don’t have to worry about the effects of radiation. As the next generation of humanity, we’ve been designed to be able to survive in a world that is post ‘nuclear war.’’
‘60% of our bodies are gone.’
60% gone from the body. Ayaka didn’t want to even think about it.
‘And while we are still alive, we cannot move.’
‘What about her? What happened to Takekura Kiyoko!’
‘As if a mere human would still be alive in the blast center.’
However, Ayaka had lost almost all of her senses.
‘Still, becoming a dragon is quite different from what our goal was supposed to be. While it may take time, there is still hope of recovering with the healing ability we already possess.’
Dragon Heal.’
In an instant, her body distorted.
Her flesh pushed out and tore through her burnt skin.
Her eyeballs regenerated, and she was able to see her surroundings again.


Heat Absorption

Ayaka was absorbing the heat. She was using it to heal. She didn’t understand how this dragon body worked. However, it wasn’t like any mere reptile.

Duplication & Weapon Creation:
Ayaka pulled out some fangs from her jaw.

As they regrew immediately, she did not mind doing it.

The dropped fangs sunk into the ground and something else came out.

It was Ayaka.

Ayaka, before she had turned into a dragon. They came out of the ground, one after another.

They were wearing helmets and armor and held spears.

‘You should unleash them. Everything they see and hear will be known to you. And if they encounter an enemy that they can beat, they will.’


HRE​

Acausality (Type 4): They exist outside the system that is the conceptual hierarchy of space-times/heavenly records

There is a conceptual hierarchy of worlds, a flow of power from the top to the bottom. When moving from the world above to the world below, you only need to fall down, but to move up, you need enough energy to go against the flow. It seems that in the world's hierarchical structure, this world is located at the bottom. Therefore, it would take a lot of energy to return to the world of Yogiri and the others.
~ V9
It is referred to as “The Deep Sea Fish”, which is an animal living in the “Sea”.
It swims around freely in “Sea”, and it feeds on Heavenly Records.
The means by which the being consumes Heavenly Records is simple; it swims around aimlessly in the “Sea” and consumes any Heavenly Records it sees.
At this point in time, the baby was like an other self still. It was like a probe for observing humans, and its real form was left in the space of nothingness, refered to as the “Sea”.
~ V3
The Heavenly Record Eater. Its main body is so large that it can swallow an entire heavenly record (the universe).
 
It has been eating the flying records in a miscellaneous way, but in the last few hundred years, it has become more and more concerned with the taste.
 
Since it has a body that is too large to pursue the finer flavors, they have created avatars as active bodies within the world of the Heavenly Record.
 
Carla is one of them, and although it is vulnerable compared to the main body, it still has a power comparable to that of a god within the heavenly records.
 
Originally, it exists outside of the system, but it registers user information from various systems to search for more gourmet information.
~ Chapter 167

Yogiri​

Immortality Negation (Type 6): Via killing Iselda

Kinetic Energy Manipulation & Gravity Manipulation

Yogiri was falling into the shadows.
—Each floor of the demon world is supposed to be 1 kilometer in height.
He calculated.
If this world’s gravitational acceleration was around 10m/s2, and you ignored air resistance, it would take 14 seconds to crash to the ground.
As seconds had already passed at this point, it would be less than 10 seconds now.
—If this really was a natural disaster, I would ultimately die here.
However, He had sworn to bring Tomochika back to her world. So he couldn’t die here. Besides, judging by how the cliff had crumbled, it did not seem like a natural disaster. It was more likely that someone had caused it.
Once he decided to do something, it became necessary to unleash his power.
The power that Yogiri called Phase 1 was not enough to deal with the current situation.
Tomochika would have laughed if she had heard it, but Yogiri still considered himself as being in the same category as humans.

This was because he could still explain away his danger detection and instant death abilities as mere coincidences.
If he wanted it, his opponent would die. He could see the threat of danger and avoid it.
Objectively, there was no casual relationship, and so while it was a bit forced, he could still insist that it was a coincidence.
However, it was obvious that no normal human could get out of the current situation.
–But there was also magic in this world. There were probably people who could do the same thing as him.
Yogiri wanted to be as human as possible. And so he told this to himself as he activated Phase 2.
It was as if there were several locked gates in his heart, and he was opening them one by one and unleashing their power.
After the second one, they were made to close automatically after a fixed amount of time.
The reason that he took these somewhat laborious steps, was because a simple mistake could lead to the end of the world. And so it was necessary to be cautious after the second gate.
Yogiri prepared himself and then opened the second gate.
–Stop the fall. However, if I don’t restrict it, the gravity of this world will disappear.
It was incredibly difficult to limit the area of effect when it came to phenomena and concepts that had no actual shape. This was why he had hesitated to kill the ‘space’ within the tower where the devil had been sealed.
Besides, was it really even right to assume that the force that pulled things downward in this world was also gravity?
Was it right to kill something that he was uncertain of?
What if killing the gravity just caused the uniformly accelerated motion to turn into uniform motion?
Yogiri struggled over this for a moment before brushing it aside. It was something he had done subconsciously before, so there was no point in thinking about it now.
“How annoying. In that case, I’ll just kill ‘my momentum.’”
It was all wordplay.
But it was possible for Yogiri, now that he had reached Phase 2.
At that moment, he killed the falling energy that was covering him.
For this, it didn’t really matter what kind of power was actually at work.
What died and what phenomenon occurred. All of it relied on Yogiri’s perception.
The power activated and his speed immediately started to drop.
Then he held David, who was falling beside him. And by the time they reached the ground, the speed at which they fell was practically zero.
Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantum):

Capable of "killing" radioactive particles and photons, as well as wind, noise, and heat itself

Determination to kill.
Suddenly, everything in sight seemed to be covered in black. An area of death.
There was no place to run. Yogiri was looking at certain death.
“Anyway, everyone should stand behind me.”
As he sounded more serious than usual, they obeyed without a word.
And then the wall in front of them disappeared.
“Huh?”
Someone said in a shocked voice.
The stones that made up the walls were now flying apart at a frightening rate.
The trees of the forests burned and were blown away in a flash, along with the sand and dirt. In just a second, the land was empty.
An incredible ascending current now occurred, taking everything up into the sky. The clouds darkened in no time. While it was too close to them to see clearly, it was probably shaped like a mushroom.
However, in spite of all this, it was calm where Yogiri and the others stood.
The light, noise, heat, and wind should have been assaulting them. But none of it reached them.
“Uhhh…what is…”
Tomochika had been speechless, but she finally opened her mouth.
“I think it’s a nuclear weapon. It was like this the last time it happened.”
“You say it so casually, I don’t even know what to say…”
Tomochika was confused.
“Um, the second gate is opened…”
Ryouko said. She was shaking as she stared at her smartphone.
Yogiri recalled that there was a machine that was used to monitor him.
“We’ll need something to brave invisible threats, such as radiation.”
In order to protect themselves and their friends, they had decided to ignore all of the annoying processes and jump to phase 2.
Currently, he was continuing to kill any and every phenomenon that was a threat to their lives. If this situation was due to a nuclear weapon, its effects would not go away quickly. The gates would not close until they had escaped.
“Um, will it really be alright? Uh, maybe the laws of physics have been erased…”
~ Chapter 113

Damage Transferal & Mind Reading: Yogiri can use his power through the use of other people as a medium, and can also kill anyone/anything that his targets have ever seen from their memories

Subjective Reality:

It has been noted that what phenomena occurs after he targets an object to kill it is dependent on Yogiri's cognition of the death, for example, a door's purpose being that of blocking the way into another room so it only becomes logical that if the door dies it will allow him to cross the entrance (this happened in volume 2), however this is something that Yogiri does not actively do when using his ability as it occurs by itself.

It was all wordplay.
But it was possible for Yogiri, now that he had reached Phase 2.
At that moment, he killed the falling energy that was covering him.
For this, it didn’t really matter what kind of power was actually at work.
What died and what phenomenon occurred. All of it relied on Yogiri’s perception.
The power activated and his speed immediately started to drop.
Then he held David, who was falling beside him. And by the time they reached the ground, the speed at which they fell was practically zero.
You can find out more about this by reading the following article:...... That is, after all, the person Takato-kun kills, doesn't come back to life. ...... (Tomochika)

"It's not a given, but dead people don't come back to life. I guess that's just common sense." (Yogiri)

Death is an irreversible thing.
There is no such thing as coming back to life in the first place.
If it looks like you've been brought back to life, it would just mean that you're not actually dead.
Death to Yogiri is like that, and events that go against that common sense do not occur under Yogiri's perception.
 If someone else killed it, then there is room for it to live, but if Yogiri killed it with his power, then it is certain death. There is no way it can come back to life.
~ Chapter 149

Resistance to Probability Manipulation and Existence Erasure: Unnafected by Mei's saint punch, which induces a 100% probability of hitting and completely erasing the target

Resistance to Mind Manipulation: Capable of staying in the presence of Vahanato

Resistance to Sealing:

"Oh, it’s no use fighting. Because we don’t have any points. 0 points.” (Yogiri)"
"“Hey, it’s as easy as going through here. It’s a trial or something, but I don’t know how much you can destroy the sealed door with your full effort. Or, you can pierce through the floor. However, this is a game that collects points, and I am enjoying it according to that rule. I won’t allow you to act illogically.” (Masaki)
“You are?” (Yogiri)
....
" Arriving at the exit, Yogiri kicked the door. The door opened easily...."
~ Chapter 52

Weapon Mastery:

Diagonally to horizontally to vertically. Yogiri was slipping through the black lines appearing one by one.
Those were death lines, and he’d die for certain if he was on those lines. But on the contrary, he’d never die as long as he didn’t touch those lines. The moment after Yogiri moved, a hairy arm passed through the place he had been. Yogiri was skillful. From the start, his physical ability was high, and he also had learning ability. What seemed to be bad reflexes was his habit of laziness, and he merely lacked physical strength. Perhaps it was trained more or less with his experience from coming to a parallel world. Possibly because he was dodging with minimal movements, he really wasn’t all that tired. Currently, Yogiri was testing his combat ability, and the combat situation was being observed by every one of group two. What Yogiri was fighting was a monster similar to a thin anthropoid. Its size was about that of a human being’s, and it was just a monkey if it was only that, but four arms had grown on it. Due to that, though continuing to evade was busy in itself, its movements were simple. Upon grasping the enemy’s movements, Yogiri turned to counterattack. He swung his sword along the death line. The enemy was on that spot without fail, and the counter result was decided. Still, with Yogiri’s ability, he couldn’t bring it down in a single blow even if he had a strengthened sword. But still, the improvised swordsmanship he learned from Tomochika was showing its power as is.
~ V4

Immortality (Type 7):

“……You are! Because you summoned that! What are you doing! Do you know what you’ve summoned!? It’s over already! This world is finished already! Don’t screw around, damn it! If you want to die, die your own way! The world, me; dooooon’t drag us into it!” (Aoi)
Aoi revealed a scream suddenly, and Shion was astonished. The always calm Aoi, she’d never seen a place where she was disarranged until now.
“What are you saying?” (Shion)
That is……not a human being……not even a living thing, no……” (Aoi)
~ Chapter 62

Immortality (Type 9):

"Darian came to understand the abnormality of the situation. That would be concerning the eyeballs. Comprehension about the situation was impending. The violently piercing gazes were as if telling him to grasp the situation.
Suddenly, he became aware.
The boy’s true form was not even the body standing in front of him. Pulverizing the boy’s head would not even scratch his true form.
It was beyond anyone’s comprehension of why it would be absurd to fight against him. His true form could only be thought of as something outrageous, a genuine monster.
Why would something like that pose as a human and appear here …?!
~ Chapter 139

Acausality (Type 4, possibly Type 5(?) for true form): Same reason of the HRE + It is imperceptible even from the point of view of the HRE (a type 4 acausal) and is beyond causality as well. Additionally, its attacks completely lacks causality as well

It was completely imperceptible, and therefore it was impossible to know how to shake it off.

It was so unreasonable that it was beyond even cause and effect. No matter how far back in time, it could not overturn a determined event

"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

There was no power emanating from his body, nor was there any indication that anything had acted on Rilna's body.

 And yet, Rilna has stopped moving.

 Malna could not find a relation to causality from Yogiri there.

 Even with God's eyes, she couldn't see anything.

 He wanted her to die, and the next moment, Rilna stopped moving. That was all, and there was no connection between those two facts as if there was no connection between them.

Therefore, it was impossible to understand that Yogiri's power of instant death

It's impossible.

They had analyzed the situation as a precaution.  

But...But no one knew what had happened.

There was no indication that they had been damaged in any way, but they just died. A shutdown.

It was as if there was no relation to cause and effect.

There was no indication that any power had been reached and yet they died.

It's a very unreasonable phenomenon, but they stopped to think about it.

Abstract Existence (Type 2, possibly Type 1 for the true form):

Yogiri's true form is a primordial phenomenon, an event that existed across all space and time since the beginning of all things, omnipresent, and will stand after the end of everything as well. And due to the nature of its existence, it needs an avatar to physically interact with material world:

He wasn’t just an existence.
He was a phenomenon similar to a curse or calamity that was hard to describe. He had a personality, it wasn’t the case where he was pretending to be a human being.
~ Chapter 59
Miranda, who had various aliases, fled into the sub-space she had created and was trembling on her knees.
 The moment she saw that, it made herfeel like shehad been plunged into the abyss.
 Death itself is standing in the form of a human being.
 She wondered how many coincidences and miracles had to come together to create something like that.
~ Chapter 159
The boy’s true form was not even the body standing in front of him. Pulverizing the boy’s head would not even scratch his true form.
It was beyond anyone’s comprehension of why it would be absurd to fight against him. His true form could only be thought of as something outrageous, a genuine monster.
Why would something like that pose as a human and appear here …?!
~ Chapter 139



Darian gained consciousness. First of all, he needed to figure out how far he had traveled back in time.
And then, their eyes met.
“Aaaaaaaaaaah!”
Ditching all dignity, Darian screamed at the top of his lungs. He should have been able to escape it, but countless eyes were gazing at him.
“T-that’s weird! This should be the time before I met that thing!”
And then he noticed. He was being noticed as well. Certainly, he went back in time. But the eyes were still there.
Then the answer was simple. They had existed in all space and time since the beginning. Could it be a curse or perhaps a contamination?
~ Chapter 139
"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

It is said that can kill the target with just a thought.

When she first heard of it, it sounded really stupid to her. She thought it only appeared so because of the great difference in the strength between the target and the killer.
She thought there should be some kind of trick to that ability. She was under the impression that once she is done with unraveling and analyzing the ability, she would be able to come up with a counterplan and deal with it one way or another with her own ability.

However, she couldn't have been any more naïve.

She finally realized after personally taking a look.

No matter what it is, it'd die if that wishes so. There is no thing or phenomenon that would be allowed to exist if it was denied by that.

Omnipresence for the true form: In the quotes above

Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation (for his true form):

An eye.
At the space between Darian and the boy.
It manifested with a closed lid which then opened up.
It was not just an eyeball by itself. The almond-shaped eye was furnished with an eyelid as well.
Blink.
They kept appearing one after another.
“Eek!”
Unconsciously, Darian shrieked.
It all happened in a flash.
In the space where Time Stop was activated, there was no telling how much time had flowed.
However. Unknowingly, countless eyes had appeared and occupied the space.
Eyes. Eyeballs. Pupils.
All sorts of them were fixated on Darian. All eyeballs were staring/gazing at Darian.
Darian was trembling with terror.
~ Chapter 139
The accession of memories was transferred back in time as well. This would only mean that his memories could never be altered.
No matter how far he returned into the past, Darian had already known the existence of that thing.
He had nowhere else to escape.
Darian would not be able to maintain his sanity for much longer.
~ Chapter 139

Removal of weakness

Currently, Yogiri has a weakness listed as "Gets somewhat sleepy after using Instant Death repeatedly". While this is technically true, it shouldnt qualify as a weakness, since he can still target people when asleep. This by proxy would give him Instinctive Reactions.
 
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I'm honestly fine with most of this stuff being added but only have a problem with a Few Things:

1) I think you should change the title to "Instant Death Revisions", as more people know it by that name and it will attract more attention.

2) Yogiri shouldn't have resistance to Mind Manipulation as the text clearly states that Vat wasn't targeting him.

3) I agree with type 4 acausality for Yogiri, not type 5.

4) I think there's not enough evidence for Yogiri's true form to have type 1 abstract existence, however, I believe type 2 Abstract Existence is acceptable for both base and true form based on the multiple scans provided.

5) I'm neutral on the removal of his weakness, because it holds true, but it also isn't an actual demerit to him as he can indeed use it while asleep. I think it would be better to state in the section that it's not really a "weakness" and more of a slight downside to his power.

7) In addition to all of this, Mei's scan is enough to give him martial arts.

And...That's all, I agree with everything else and neutral on the tiering.
 
I dont think Vat supressing her own aura is a thing she has. Or at least, it wasnt implied that she could do it (or that she was doing it). The narration was also referring more to the light beams considering thats what she was using in her insane state while in Yogiri's presence.
 
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I agree with 2-A, and low 1-C was my idea so I also support that albeit in not as sure.

i also agree with ability addition, I think it would also be a good idea to mention on the ID speed or somewhere that due to its nature of having no cause and effect between Yogiri activating it it affects its activation time (since it would matter a lot for speed equal matches)
 
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Actually, there is no need for so much evidence to bump the Instant Death's cosmology to 2-A, as it should have been so in the first place. The only reason we thought of it as a 2-B verse was because of the mistranslation by the translator. Many series like Steins;Gate have translated 無数 as "infinite" in their official translations (when talking about the things related to cosmology), so whether it should be translated as 'infinite' was never an issue to begin with.
In short, incorrect translation downgraded a 2-A verse to 2-B, and now we're fixing this mistake. Simple as that.

As for raising Yogiri's tier to Low 1-C, I think it'd better to not make any changes for the time being (i.e., 2-A is fine for now). The existence of more than 4-Dimensions that are of a higher order has already been indicated in the series, and the only reason it isn't mentioned here is due to the author never calling them 5th dimension, 6th dimension, etc., and he also didn't give us much explanation about them. Furthermore, the existence of some sort of realm beyond the infinite universes has been subtly hinted as well. All of this means that Yogiri's true form could be at a much higher tier than Low 1-C with the reasoning provided for this new tier.

2) Yogiri shouldn't have resistance to Mind Manipulation as the text clearly states that Vat wasn't targeting him.
That may or may not be true, but it doesn't matter anyway as he 'technically' has resistance against everything if the enemy and their hax is not beyond his own tier. He kills both the power and the enemy at his fastest speed (consciously or automatically), so it doesn't matter what the opponent tries against him.

3) I agree with type 4 acausality for Yogiri, not type 5.
a) No one in the series could see any connection between him and his 'killed' target, unless he makes it known himself.

b) Sion, a top-tier sage with over a hundred million level, and a Goddess that is Omnipotent in her territory and powerful enough to defeat multiple Gods could see no signs of causality when Yogiri used his powers right before her.

c) Even the HRE, something that has Acausality type 4, couldn't see or change the cause-and-effect relation with the death it was certainly going to face 10 seconds later, no matter what it tried.

d) Since he is the end of everything in the multiverse, he is naturally beyond any sort of causality, fate, etc.

e) Furthermore, interacting with Yogiri's true form is normally impossible.

This shows that he has completely transcended the thing called "causality", as he can create an 'effect' without any 'cause' in the purest sense (that is, creating the effect of 'death' or 'destruction' in a totally absurd and incomprehensible manner where the cause is never perceived or understood by others, regardless of their identity and status). So I would say that there's enough reason to give his True Form type 5 acausality.

4) I think there's not enough evidence for Yogiri's true form to have type 1 abstract existence, however, I believe type 2 Abstract Existence is acceptable for both base and true form based on the multiple scans provided.
His true form is considered to be the true end of everything and has existed since time immemorial. And, it creates vessels to interact with the multiverse that don't live for any longer than a hundred years. When a vessel dies, a new one is born from the true form (and this cycle continues endlessly). The way Yogiri (the human form) is raised until he is old enough to go to nursery school reminds you of Azathoth. The Great Fox Yōkai (Nine-tails?) and other big shots like Evil God, Demon God (or translated as Magic God in To Aru), etc. raises him in a dream world that is isolated from everything, so that he doesn't wake up and 'kill' the whole universe, or even everything in existence, on a whim (as a baby doesn't have any control on their emotions).

Moreover, it is said that although the Gods are Omnipotent and Omniscient in their territory, they would lose their notion of being omnipotent and omniscient once they come to know of him (meaning, the True Form is the one and only Supreme existence, that could never be resisted or known without it manifesting before the other party on its own [and the only thing one could perceive is 'countless eyes looking at them']).

Now, how you interpret is up to you. The vessel may or may not be a type 2 Abstract Existence, while the True Form is quite likely a type 1 Abstract Existence.
 
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I agree about Upgrading the Cosmology to 2-A but I'm a bit confused about how does Yogiri have Mind hax resistance if he wasn't even targeted?
 

Zaratthustra

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I agree with the scaling and powers. Not sure about the Abstract Existence as this state of being is still confusing me (I mean type 1 and 2--how they actually work) but in rest, it should be okay. Basically I agee.
 
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@Gemstic

I already know all of the reasoning for why Yogiri would have that stuff, I just don't think there's enough evidence for Acausality type 5 and Abstract existence type 1.

Like, based on past discussions, you need not only statements but consistent, specific, and explicit feats of not being able to be interacted with for both of those. Those which Yogiri just doesn't have.

For acausality you need to be stated to transcend causality on top of that; or at the very least be stated that the law of causality doesn't apply to you. For this, we cannot assume what has not been stated in the text.

"Since he is the end of everything in the multiverse, he is naturally beyond any sort of causality, fate"

And for this^ I'm 100% sure we've never given out type 5 acausality because of this, if we have, then true form does get it.


As I said, very specific things need to happen for this stuff to be accepted, and as far as pure powers go; these two are the most confusing and by far the hardest to get added to a page because of their nature.
 
I mean, statements like "A phenomenon/event", "Calamity", "Death itself in the form a human being", "The end of everything", those are all stuff with no clear shape and abstract, especially the phenomenon/event part

Afaik, a phenomenon is an event, which isnt really something that can indexed as just non-corporeal or intangible, but more like abstract. Same with "calamity". And with the other examples, it seems to line up.
 
I don't know or care about the verse and I don't know Japanese but I'm confused to why 無数 is better translated to infinite when talking about cosmology. To my knowledge, and at least in Chinese, 無数 is most commonly used as immeasurable/ countless numbers every where else so why is it different when talking about cosmology.
 
The kanji can also mean "Infinite Number" as I linked above. Plus, it also lines up with the context of the overall ID cosmology and how the Sea works, in this case.
 
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Oh I thought the quote meant that generally it should be translated that way instead of just effecting the mentioned verses.
Yeah, the translator should have done the translation according to the context, and that would mean translating 無数 as "infinite" in this case. But he did his translation in a very literal manner, and downgrading the verse for no reason was one of the consequences.
 
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@YungManzi

I understand your point, but it's really all due to the author's intention to 'Show, Don't tell' and keep the true identity of Yogiri as secretive as possible (even after hundreds of chapters) that only on rare occasions you'd get to see information about him in textual form. As a reader though, most would acknowledge that an existence such as him would be an Abstract Existence type 1 that has Acausality type 5.

Like, based on past discussions, you need not only statements but consistent, specific, and explicit feats of not being able to be interacted with for both of those. Those which Yogiri just doesn't have.
I mean, no one, not even the High-tier Gods, have been able to interact with Yogiri's True Form on their own (despite him being omnipresent, which has been shown and mentioned), even after hundreds of chapters. Moreover, no one has ever been able to see (let alone change) the connection between cause and effect when he uses his power, even if they have type 4 acausality, and it has proved itself to be irresistible to all (a High-tier Goddess literally says it herself that your notion of omnipotence and omniscience would be lost after coming to know of his existence, and such a statement would normally be said for only someone/something that is truly transcendent of everything).

Isn't this all clearly a consistent, specific, and explicit demonstration of his feats (and textual proof of transcendence)? The 'Yogiri' you're talking about is just a (mortal) 'vessel', not the 'true form', so it makes sense that you won't see him having the characteristics of an abstract existence that has transcended causality. But we never said to give type 5 acausality to the vessel. From the very beginning, the type 5 acausality was mentioned for none other than the 'true form' (which helps its vessel in times of need).

Aoi's ability was mentioned to be working at meta-level (as she can literally peek at the script of the world), and her thoughts on Yogiri are supposed to play an important part in revealing the 'insider information' to the readers:

"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

It is said that can kill the target with just a thought.

When she first heard of it, it sounded really stupid to her. She thought it only appeared so because of the great difference in the strength between the target and the killer.

She thought there should be some kind of trick to that ability. She was under the impression that once she is done with unraveling and analyzing the ability, she would be able to come up with a counter-plan and deal with it one way or another with her own ability.

However, she couldn't have been any more naïve.

She finally realized after personally taking a look.

No matter what it is, it'd die if that wishes so. There is no thing or phenomenon that would be allowed to exist if it was denied by that."
This whole quote shows quite textually that he is something that would not be influenced by any form of causality, and such an existence would most likely be a type 1 abstract existence as well. It wasn't just her, even the Ruler of Space-time (that came to deal with him before running away in great panic) and the Great Yōkai and her group of big shots (that were about to conquer the universe where Yogiri was born, but quit everything to deal with the newborn 'vessel') have also mentioned similar things, so there's no reason to doubt what was told to us through Aoi.

The points that support the whole acausality type 5 and abstract existence thing aren't really as lacking as you make it out to be, though I'd appreciate your further input on the matter.
 
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I would also like to mention that the wall that protected the Mani City from supernatural existences but let humans through (even if they were supernatural) considered Yogiri supernatural existence rather than a human. Aoi’s statements also come from her having a meta perspective on the world’s scrip, I think they’re pretty valid for the abstract existence, as Gemstic said.

As for the goddess, I think it should also be mentioned that her eyes were supposed to be a capable of seeing anything, including casuality and when Yogiri killed she saw absolutely nothing. No correlation whatsoever which confused her.

@Gemstic

I feel like with what you mentioned plus what I’ve considered for low 1-C is really enough, like, even if the author hinted at several other higher layers wouldn’t this rating be the most accurate for now? After all the true form pretty clearly transcends the sea which is considered a higher order conceptual dimension which encompasses the entire infinite multiverse.
 
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I feel like with what you mentioned plus what I’ve considered for low 1-C is really enough, like, even if the author hinted at several other higher layers wouldn’t this rating be the most accurate for now? After all the true form pretty clearly transcends the sea which is considered a higher order conceptual dimension which encompasses the entire infinite multiverse.
Well, there should be no issue with raising the tier of the ID multiverse itself to Low 1-C, as the conceptual dimension is obviously infinite times greater than a Heavenly Record, aka universe, as it contains infinite such Heavenly Records. And as someone that is able to exist in such a dimension (due to being omnipresent), Yogiri's hax would naturally become 5-D in nature. Now, if he is able to end everything in existence, which would include the Low 1-C dimension, I don't see why he won't scale to Low 1-C himself. The only reason I haven't mentioned it so far, is because I expect him to jump several tiers when more revelations about his identity and the ID verse are made later on in the future. I simply thought to wait till then before changing his tier from 2-A.
 
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Well, when the revelations are made it can simply be changed but this would be the most accurate we can get for now imo.
 
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Well, when the revelations are made it can simply be changed but this would be the most accurate we can get for now imo.
I don't have any issue with it if you want the tier (of the verse and Yogiri) to be as accurate as possible with respect to the information we have been 'clearly' provided at this point.
 
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More context? What kinda context? We’ve got a couple of direct statements of true form/ID having no casuality/being beyond it with type 4 acasuals and they could directly see casuality/interact with it.
 
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Looks like we need more evidence than what we have now. Well, he isn't called Alpha-Omega for nothing, so let's hope we're shown something in the future that would be enough to prove type 5 acausality.
 
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Yeah, agreed with 2-A, Type 4 Acausal, Type 2 Abstract, and the other stuff. Tier 1, Type 5 Acausal and Type 1 Abstract would need some more evidence imo.
 
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@Ionliosite

Tier 1:

The conceptual dimension that contains everything, including the infinite multiverse, should not need any more proof to be Low 1-C at least. A container can't hold infinite Xs (+ the void between each and everyone of them) if it isn't infinite times greater than a X. Such an obvious thing should not need any more evidence. So the ID verse is definitely Low 1-C, if not higher (depends on what information is revealed later on).
If you're mentioning your doubt about raising Yogiri's tier to Low 1-C, I can still understand your point.

Type 1 Abstract Existence:

Type 1 Abstract is not for the 'vessel' (Yogiri), it is for the True Form (the End of Everything). 'The End' is either a Type 1 Abstract Existence, or something else entirely (as 'it' doesn't fit the definition of a type 2 abstract existence). If you mean that you agree with the 'vessel' (named Yogiri) being a type 2 abstract existence, I think you're right.
 
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I think concept type 2 is a complicate abilities also about low-1C its a tier 1 stuff that , to be fair we need the agreement from knowledge member staff to given for
 
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By the way, @Gemstic , would you say ID’s potency scales to Yogiri’s true form power? It’s just the manifestation of its power, right?
Yes, ID's potency certainly scales to Yogiri's True Form. Instead of saying the death hax we have seen is "a manifestation of its power", it'd be better to call it "a manifestation of its nature". What we see as a death hax is actually just 'The End' imposing its meaning on anything it wants (it seems to be working on the principle that so long as something 'exists', no matter in what form, it should naturally have an 'end'), which effectively "ceases the existence of the targeted person/thing/concept/phenomenon/existence forever". This is also why even if something 'killed' by ID has some form of regeneration (including High-Godly), it'd be totally useless due to the state of 'existence has ended' imposed on it (you need a higher tier AP or hax to avoid being put in such a state); growing new organs or concept would not help as they won't function at all due to the very meaning of their existence being kept in an 'ended condition'. It is a power that would work even against those that deny or nullify all supernatural things (for ex., Imagine Breaker), as beginning and end are some of the most fundamental and natural aspects of the world.
 
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"growing new organs or concept would not help as they won't function at all due to the very meaning of their existence being kept in an 'ended condition'"44

^^Now this is something I wholeheartedly agree with, regen isn't too useful if your body comes back unable to function.
 

Elizhaa

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  1. I have some things I have some views that will take large posts on Low 1-C, Regeneration (Low-Godly) for Sages, Conceptual Manipulation, Abstract Existence, Acasuality, Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation(; I am kind of busy but I will reply tomorrow after I got the time.
I think just tier 2-A is just fine; I think the other things look fine.
 

Elizhaa

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  1. Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation(for his true form):
    1. I was checking Fear Manipulation & Madness Manipulation; I think they could be legit. Madness Manipulation should be type 3, in my opinion.

  2. There is a conceptual hierarchy of worlds, a flow of power from the top to the bottom. When moving from the world above to the world below, you only need to fall down, but to move up, you need enough energy to go against the flow. It seems that in the world's hierarchical structure, this world is located at the bottom. Therefore, it would take a lot of energy to return to the world of Yogiri and the others.
    1. The way it is described, it seems like hierarchy isn't really transcendent but just adjacent just in the bottom to up manner since Yogiri's world which is a higher level doesn't look to be. I don't see the evidence that Yogiri (true form) transcends the Sea; it seems like it would exist at the end of everything and would unaffected by the destruction of everything. I don't think Low 1-C is legit.
  3. Immortality (Type 8) & Regeneration(Low-Godly):
    1. Is the stone physical or metaphysical? In this context, I think the source of the regeneration doesn't really matter just the feat of regeneration's feat itself as describe by the Low-Godly definition. In this case, if the character can't regenerate from complete physical destruction then I don't see the feat as Low-Godly. I see a case where X regeneration show and Immortality type 8 similar to some Homunculus in Fullmetal Alchemist.
      1. Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead of restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.
  4. I do share some of Gemstic's views on Abstract Existence Type 1:
    1. I think Yogiri's true form has abstract existence type 1; it exists is akin to the phenomenon like the End or Death that is omnipresent through existence.
  5. Conceptual Manipulation type 2 looks fine, to me.
 
The stone is physical but you cant reach it by destroying the entire body.

The low-godly comes from this:

"Die!"

The hero shouted at the top of his lungs and the prison of light shone even brighter than before. However, after a single flash it was already over. The light ceased and everything was gone. The small blades the hero had used for the spell, the straight sword that looked like it had been plucked out of a legend, the beastman that was rolling around on the floor, and Lain. The produced heat must have been immense, for even the floor had started to melt and glow like lava.

"Ariel... I've finally... ...taken down the first..."

The hero mumbled something as he lost the strength in his feet and fell to his knees. He put so much into that one attack he could hardly even stand.

"How... how do we even treat a case like this?"

"What do you mean!? Of course the killing of a Sage is a major crime! We must immediately arrest him!"

Edelgard's usual habit of acting before thinking made George want to lie down and curl up next to the hero. No matter how weakened he may be, they had no chance of arresting a hero. George looked over to the feudal lord at the other side of the room with a gaze that said

"If you're an acolyte of sages then can't you do something about this?," but Masahiko vehemently shook his head. The responding gaze was equally vocal:

"No way."

"So is this Ariel your dead lover or something?"

But there wasn't anything for George or Masahiko to do. Just like she did all those times before, Lain stood in her spot anew. Despair warped the hero's face.

"...How... ...did you escape...?"

"I didn't. Why would I if I can't be killed anyways?"

"...This can't be... even Sword Saint Kartena was tracelessly erased by this heat, there shouldn't have been anything left of you..."

As a matter of fact, Lain truly was entirely eradicated by that attack.

"I wouldn't be having such a hard time if I could die just by burning to utter nothingness. Honestly you might as well think about this degree of immortality as a curse, I don't even want to think about how much longer I'll live."
 
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I don’t get where the low-godly correlating to Lain comes from, that’s kinda supposed to be her quality and that feat was done in a scene that was demonstrating it. We later see ofc that her regen is attached to her type 9.

the conceptual hierarchy wasn’t being used to justify transcendence either.
 
Yeah, the Low 1-C is more like because Yogiri predates the Sea and is unbound by it + is imperceptible and incomprehensible from the perspective of 4-D beings like the HRE.
 

Elizhaa

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Ok, Low-Godly seems fine; the case looks similar to Aizen's case.

Also, I almost forgot; I think the Acausality is type 4 for now, from the evidence.
I won't lie most of the statements are option 2 and the link regarding HRE looks to be option 4. This table below explained that it view fate, plot, and the like as less than a Joke. I am kind of interested in the Goddess's evidence regarding the one who perceives causality but couldn't perceive for Yogiri's true form; it could have work as good evidence for Acausality type 5.
"That is a dead end.
That is the ending point for the fate of each and everything, and there's nothing beyond that. The end of everything has assumed the form of a human being.

It is precisely because that is 'The End', that thing would be present till the very end of everything in existence. It is impossible for anything to go beyond that.

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke
. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.

It is said that can kill the target with just a thought.

When she first heard of it, it sounded really stupid to her. She thought it only appeared so because of the great difference in the strength between the target and the killer.

She thought there should be some kind of trick to that ability. She was under the impression that once she is done with unraveling and analyzing the ability, she would be able to come up with a counterplan and deal with it one way or another with her own ability.

However, she couldn't have been any more naïve.

She finally realized after personally taking a look.

No matter what it is, it'd die if that wishes so. There is no thing or phenomenon that would be allowed to exist if it was denied by that."
 
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Elizhaa

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I don’t get where the low-godly correlating to Lain comes from, that’s kinda supposed to be her quality and that feat was done in a scene that was demonstrating it. We later see ofc that her regen is attached to her type 9.

the conceptual hierarchy wasn’t being used to justify transcendence either.
I just saw this point, after my reply. I thought that the regeneration would scale to all the Sages and not be something special to Lain. I guess my views is the regeneration of feat average sage have + immortality type 8 from my old point, then.

I guess the accepted point can be applied, Oblivion.
 
Alright, thanks

Btw, I found the goddess feat:

How long had she been frozen.

 Malna, who had been lying on her face, slowly raised her face.

 Her words reminded her of Yogiri's ability to kill instantly, but she still couldn't believe it.

 She didn't know what had happened.

 Without any warning, Rilna is down.

 Nothing should have happened, but Rilna has stopped.

 Yogiri is not doing anything.

 Objectively, he just said the words, "You die," and that's it.

 There was no power emanating from his body, nor was there any indication that anything had acted on Rilna's body.

 And yet, Rilna has stopped moving.

 Malna could not find a relation to causality from Yogiri there.

 Even with God's eyes, she couldn't see anything.

 Yogiri wanted her to die, and the next moment, Rilna stopped moving. That was all, and there was no connection between those two facts as if there was no connection between them.

 Therefore, it is impossible to understand that Yogiri's power of instant death.

 It's impossible.
 
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@Elizhaa

The Gods are basically extremely higher-order beings that possess divine authority, and they are omnipotent and omniscient in their territory. They are also the only ones that can prevent a Heavenly Record from being eaten by a Heavenly Record Eater (HRE).

Due to their inherent nature and the authority of omnipotence and omniscience, they can also see metaphysical things.
Causality is one of the things they can naturally perceive, and as they themselves have type 4 acausality, they would be able to see causality if another person has the same type of acausality as them, especially when something is happening right before their eyes.

For example, even if Boxer A (->have type 4 acausality) can't put up a fight against Boxer B because the opponent is way faster and stronger than them (->have way stronger type 4 acausality), Boxer A will still be able to see or sense Boxer B's actions and movements to some extent as they're still in the same weight class (->have same type of acausality [type 4]). Even if Boxer A has to fight the Boxers from a higher weight class, it doesn't mean they won't be able to see any move of their opponent, unless the other Boxer is someone that has fully transcended the limits of humans (->completely transcended causality, and thus have type 5 acausality). Similarly, if it was only a matter of True Form's type 4 acausality being stronger than others, they would still be able to 'see' or 'perceive' the causality at least a bit, even if they couldn't resist its power due to the degree of their own type 4 acausality being inferior.

The fact that they can't see/perceive anything at all shows that the type of acausality that the True Form has is totally outside causality itself (which would be type 5 acausality).

We should also seriously take into consideration that the narrative itself clearly stated that Instant Death (It) is even beyond Causality:

It was completely imperceptible, and therefore it was impossible to know how to shake it off.

It was so unreasonable that it was beyond even causality itself. No matter how far back in past one goes, it could not overturn the determined event.

There is also this statement from Meta-perspective:

In a front of such a thing, Fate, Plot, and the like are less than a joke. It would be the definition of idiocy to even think of fighting such an existence.
This means that Yogiri is beyond Fate, Plot, etc.

Combining the above two statements, we get: Yogiri's 'True Form' is beyond Causality, Fate, Plot, and the like.

When we evaluate these statements while considering the things I have explained above, there seems to be decent evidence for Acausality type 5.
 
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Elizhaa

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  1. What about ae type 2 for yogiri's human form? I think that's legit.
    1. I am neutral. You can ask for more inputs if you want.
  2. Yeah, the Low 1-C is more like because Yogiri predates the Sea and is unbound by it + is imperceptible and incomprehensible from the perspective of 4-D beings like the HRE.
    1. I would argue I still don't see transcendence. I can be fine with type 5 causality couple with the recent quotes. Things like fate, plot, and like are less than a joke to it; it would exist fine without it after it destroys those concepts, from option 2 statements. The narrative explains it was so imperceptible that it was beyond cause and effect. A goddess who specialized in seeing the relation of causality couldn't perceive Yogiri's true form.
    2. I will be honest, I think those are some of the most solid statements on acausality type 5 that I saw. If some want to bring up verses that are tier 1-A as counterpoints, many of those characters got it from the consequences that the old 1-A definitions which basically describe those being as unbounded by such concepts; I believe there are talks that many of 1-A and up could have it their acausality downgrade.
      1. Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.
I would be fine with type 5 causality but I think more staff inputs would be needed on it. I know Ultima is a staff familiar with type 5 causality; SomebodyData looks to also be familiar with the topic.
 
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@Elizhaa

Are you all right with raising the tier of the verse itself to Low 1-C though? (as the 'Sea' is clearly more than infinite times greater than a single (4D) universe: it contains an infinite number of them, and there's also enough gap in between each and every universe in the form of 'void' which is used by beings like HRE to travel through the 'Sea' [->It is to be noted that just the mouth of an HRE alone is big enough to swallow a universe at least, and its body size is big enough to store multiple universes inside. This means that there's at least a gap of multiple universes in between each heavenly record (universe) = a universe is already infinitesimal in size compared to the 'Sea', but the overall size of the 'Sea' is big enough to accomodate even more sets of infinity = The size of a universe is 'at the least' smaller by multiple degrees of 'infinity' in comparison to the 'Sea' = at least Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely, Infinitely smaller than 'infinitesimal']) That would affect the 'Range' parameter, even if the AP remains as 2-A (since Yogiri's True Form is omnipresent and exists even in the entire 'Sea' outside the infinite universes).

Also, would it be fine to mention at least 2-A, likely Far Higher (if low 1-c is fine for the verse: at least 2-a, likely low 1-c)? After all, it seems the only thing we're lacking for Low 1-C (AP) is an undeniable proof that shows that the True Form 'transcend' the 'Sea'.
 
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Rikimarox2

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The 2-A has already been applied. We're now waiting to see if Yogiri can be low 1-C and if he can have acausality type 5
 

Rikimarox2

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I mean, you can just read the thread but eh. He's beyond the scope of an infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records, and he's also incomprehensible to 4-D beings.
 
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I mean, you can just read the thread but eh. He's beyond the scope of an infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records, and he's also incomprehensible to 4-D beings.
Mmmm so you are saying that his true form exist on a higher dimensional plane of existence then HRE? If yes then that's 100% 5D
 
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@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Some more additions to Yogiri's profile:-

Resistance to Power Nullification: The Invincible Corps could neutralize all kinds of powers (due to the armor).
The Battle God had resistance to and could neutralize tons of things including Reality Warping, Causality Manipulation, Conceptual attacks.

Resistance to Conceptual Manipulation: The Goddess Malna tried to alter his concept of life to death.

Resistance against Spatial Manipulation and BFR:

-Sometimes, the user cannot affect people or objects, but they fold space onto itself, making the object take 2 different places at once. Examples include teleportation, causing wormholes, summoning, creating pocket dimensions and universes, etc.-

Alice used her ultimate ability 'Another Kingdom' that manipulates space to create another dimension, and BFR's the target/s.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation: He is just an Avatar.

Invulnerability (for the true form): Due to being immune to damage from conventional weaponry.

Resistance to Resistance Negation: As Mei Punch is able to 100% annihilate the target, it should have both durability negation and Resistance Negation to work as intended.

Also, because Sion uses her spatial manipulation in several ways, it'd be better to add 'Teleportation' to her profile as well (to make it clear that she also possesses such an ability).
 
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Yogiri shouldn't get resistance to powernull based on that since The Corps's and BattleGod's powernull were just 3-D to my knowledge. Yogiri just overpowered them via higher-d hax

Did she actually try to do that? I forgot

I suppose that works, but I was thinking more of spatial manip for yogiri since he can kill dimensions and space

Neutral on soul manip

I mean, higher-d thing already does this by default

Teleportation is already included for Sion
 
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I mean, we assume everyone has a soul unless stated otherwise for what I remember, unless there are exceptions like when u embody a concept or soemthing idk
 
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We dont have enough evidence for resistance negation in Mei's case. It needs to directly state that it bypasses resistance or feats of doing it
I get what you mean, but if her power can't bypass the resistance of the target (which would be 'negating' it), there's no way for it to work with 100% probability. That's a plain and simple deduction based on the ability.
 
I get what you mean, but if her power can't bypass the resistance of the target (which would be 'negating' it), there's no way for it to work with 100% probability. That's a plain and simple deduction based on the ability.
I mean, if they resist the 100% thing then they resist it. Thats why Yogiri get resistance from that
 
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That's why I said I am not sure if people like that are also assume to have a soul or not
Yeah, no one knows unless specifically mentioned, but it'd be more 'plausible' for such things to be without a soul, objectively speaking. (how they're treated depends on the series in the end)

But since Aoi herself said that "it is not even a living thing" (so we don't even need to speculate whether he is a living being or not), I'm more inclined to believe that the avatar is without a soul.
 
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Also, it was not Malna but Rulna, the one who died (got confused by the name for a moment).

I suppose that works, but I was thinking more of spatial manip for yogiri since he can kill dimensions and space
It would work for everything: spatial manipulation, resistance against it, and since the power force you away to someplace else - resistance against BFR.
 
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Oh, I thought it was done already. Just checked that you have included 'teleportation' in your first post.
 
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@Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

Because I agree with your previous reasoning and opinion, here's more to consider:

Resistance to Power Nullification: The Gods can fight HRE (a 4-D existence), so as ID is also 4-D, overpowering via higher-d hax won't work here. Now, coming to the main point, the two guys who were hired by the angels to kill Yogiri were strong enough to kill beings such as Gods, and it was clearly mentioned that one of them (and other leaders in his crew) could 'use' as well as 'nullify' many hax-level powers including Instant Death, Attack Reflection, Time Stop, Time Reverse, Spatial Cut, Existence Erasure, Conceptual attack, Causality Erasure. This should be enough for getting the resistance to power nullification I think.

Resistance to Soul Manipulation: Ester (one of the other people who live in the SCP foundation-esque research establishment) has the ability of "the most beautiful in the world" (basically Chimera from To Aru). Her 'beautiful ability' is so intrusive that everyone listens to what she says, even inanimate things (an 'electronic lock' will open if she asks it to do so). This means that her power directly manipulates the core or essence of the target, which are mind, soul and concept. Furthermore, since she influences you just by being close to her and make you feel 'that' way, it also seems to have emphatic manipulation. Kid Yogiri was able to resist her perfectly, so he should naturally get resistance to such things as well.

Addition of Sense Manipulation: He can remotely take over the 'sight' of the target to kill everyone else other than the hostage. That is what he did when Asaka was kidnapped during his childhood days.

Also, we do know for sure that when he isn't keeping his 'nature' (it's not magic, skill or anything of the sort) firmly sealed (which would be the case in a Vs battle), just looking at his blurred video or picture would kill you automatically (and therefore, use of any sort of info-analysis, precognition, prediction of actions, etc. against him is an even bigger no-no). Does this translate into some sort of ability or resistance as well? Otherwise, we'd have to mention it every time it is required. The difference between this and having plain resistance against something is that you'd be auto-killed for making the attempt in this case.

Furthermore, like I mentioned before, since the death hax is just a result of the 'nature' of the existence (there was never a case of him 'actually' releasing some kind of 'power'), it should have (unconventional) resistance to things like Power Nullification, Power Mimicry, Power Absorption, and the like (unless the opponent has performed the feat of nullifying, mimicking, absorbing the 'nature' of a Type 1 AE that is at the level of Type 2 Concepts).

As for Regeneration Negation, it has already worked on Low-Godly ones and we might very well see him dealing with the remaining two in the future, as there's even stronger beings out there. For the time being, the other two types would be dealt with ceasing every function of the opponent and keeping them 'passively' in a 'psuedo-dead' state (as the death manipulation/existence erasure of ID is an eternal 24/7 passive that makes sure that the target never recovers).
 
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Ultima_Reality

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Now, this might be a stretch, but since Yogiri's true form is beyond the scope of the infinite conceptual hierarchy of heavenly records (as well as being a transcendent concept), plus being impercetible/incomprehensible from the pov of 4-D beings, this could probably give him Low 1-C (or possibly Low 1-C). Im not so sure about that myself, though. Take it with a grain of salt.
Where is any of that suggested, though? All those excerpts say is that his true form existed before all of existence and will eventually outlive it, since he's "the end of everything" personified. None of that indicates Yoguri's abstract form completely transcends the multiverse or anything like that, which is what Low 1-C would imply in this case.

Acausality seems fine for him, though.
 
@Gemstic

Wasnt that referring to the Sea Bandits, though? Edit: Nvm, that makes sense

Wait what? Kid Yogiri? Childhood? Did this happen in the LN?

I actually agree with that one about powernull resistance. It isnt really something that is considered a power

Yogiri can actually kill Mid-Godlys but thats more because of his concept manip

@Ultima_Reality

I see, thanks for the input. I wasnt very sure about the Low 1-C stuff myself. It seems only 2-A has been accepted then
 
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Wait what? Kid Yogiri? Childhood? Did this happen in the LN?
Yes, in the 'past' section of the LNs (Ester is from the 5th volume). I think several of his abilities are not known because we haven't got our hands on all the LN volumes. Just the two examples from the past that I mentioned to you is enough to show how important it is. The author himself said that he'd reveal a lot more about Yogiri and his powers in the LN's 'past' section.
 
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Yogiri can actually kill Mid-Godlys but thats more because of his concept manip
That really slipped my mind. So yeah, it's only 'High-Godly' that would require to be 'passively' kept non-functional, for now.

Edit: The 'looking at blurred video or picture and dying' thing is also from the past when Yogiri was too young to control his 'nature/power' properly.

Edit 2: As for the tier, since only 2-A was accepted, would it be fine to just mention "at least 2-A" (for the true form) to make it clear that it could be higher?
 
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Can you explain why 無数 in ID means infinite rather than countless?(I asked this question because it's also related to my favourite verse).
Well, to make it as clear to you as possible, I'll use 'context' for explanation:

A Deep Sea Fish (HRE) eats universes through all eternity in the 'sea', and since we're talking about a 'sea', there could be a countless number of them just like the fishes in an actual sea (or ocean). In such a case, it would naturally make a lot more sense for a Multiverse to have infinite universes when potentially countless beings such as the Deap Sea Fishes continue to eat countless universes endlessly."
As you can see from the quotation above, a multiverse that is only 'countless' would cease to exist at some point if it doesn't contain an infinite number of universes in this case. Therefore, you need to have an "infinite" number of them. Simple to understand, right? Not only so, each universe (Heavenly Record) in ID also has infinite parallel worlds, just that it is not stated clearly (though you'd get the idea if you're familiar with Japanese stuff).

Since 無数 could mean both infinite and countless, you'd need to look at the context to understand what the author meant by it. In your case, if your favorite verse has enough evidence to support the point that your verse should have an 'infinite' number of universes, you can go ahead and translate it as such.
 
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Elizhaa

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Sure; since I asked @Andytrenom on his profile too, I am pinging him here.

I want more opinions regarding Acausality type 5 being valid or not, from the evidence.
 
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Hmm, it seems like we need to wait either yogiri could have accasuality type 5 or not.

Right, @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless even though yoshifumi and iselda already have their own profile. It seems like Darian still doesn't have it? I wonder if he will get his own profile too? Also if marna rilna (twin goddes) and 'sea' bandit have their own profile what do you think their tier is?

Also @Gemstic it seems like you're already know about LN side stories? How many LN side stories you already know? I do remember author will tell about yogiri past and his power more in LN side stories, so it really must be important.
 

Antvasima

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There seems to be something wrong with notifications for most staff members. I will try as well: @Andytrenom

Anyway, can somebody summarise the conclusions here please?
 

Antvasima

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Okay. It seems like you can likely manage this without me then.
 
The scans are in the OP.

Basically its beyond causality; Its attacks have no causality attached to it; Its beyond fate and plot as well; Its imperceptible / incomprehensible even from the pov of acausal (type 4) beings, and those can't interact with it; Gods who can see and manipulate causality can't perceive it either

Idk what you mean by anti-proof, but no one ever touched or managed to interact with it
 

SomebodyData

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Well, if it's like that it seems pretty straightforward type 5, if that's the description of their feats.

I mentioned anti-proof because I was too lazy to write counterarguments since I thought there was some reason for debate between those supporting and those not supporting the acausality rating.
 
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Well, if it's like that it seems pretty straightforward type 5, if that's the description of their feats.

I mentioned anti-proof because I was too lazy to write counterarguments since I thought there was some reason for debate between those supporting and those not supporting the acausality rating.
First of all, thank you for showing the interest to settle this matter on your own discretion.

Actually, both the staff members who have checked the proof (Elizhaa and Ultima) agree with type 5 acausality as well (just as you said in your comment), but Elizhaa wants opinion from one more staff member, and that's why we're still waiting for the final 'go ahead'.
 
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Elizhaa

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Thanks for the inputs, SomebodyData.

I guess I will ping @Andytrenom again about the thread, for his inputs.

Ultima agreed with Acausality but I think Ultima disagreed with Type 5 Acausality when I asked him to clarify his views.
 
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