Yakuza Tiering Rephrasing/Minor Upgrade

[SheevShezarrine]

Majima's floor busting feat is just a hair below half of borderline 9-A/baseline 8-C, was tanked by Kiryu, and was done by Majima while weakened from a recent gunshot wound. Saejima's boulder busting feat is more than a third of borderline 9-A, and was done while he was heavily weakened from being malnourished, repeatedly wounded, and severely exhausted. Given the mitigating factors against them when they performed these feats, and them already being significant fractions of borderline 9-A, wouldn't it be more appropriate to list Majima, Saejima, Kiryu, and those who scale to them as "at least 9-A"?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Makes sense to me.

 

[Armorchompy]

I think it'd be better to list them as 9-A+ than At least 9-A, personally

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I think it'd be better to list them as 9-A+ than At least 9-A, personally

Perhaps that'd be best

 

[Chariot190]

Actually agree on this one, the conditions the feats were done under would realistically hinder to them such an extent, that when not suffering under those conditions, they should honestly be pushed over that boundary.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, 9-A+ is a boundary too, and one that they're more likely to have passed.

 

[Chariot190]

That's kinda what I was saying.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I'm guessing this matter is more or less settled?

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Bump

 

[SheevShezarrine]

I mean, 9-A+ is a boundary too, and one that they're more likely to have passed.

I see you agree with the proposed sorta-upgrade to 9-A+. Can this change be applied?

 

[KLOL506]

I guess it could work, but don't we usually do upscaling of this sort only when the character is almost borderline next tier?

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, they're almost bordeline 9-A+, and they'll become 9-A+, right?

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, they're almost bordeline 9-A+, and they'll become 9-A+, right?

Fair point.

 

[Chariot190]

Iirc the upscaling rule of like 25% within the border of the next tier and you stomp a character like that, granting upscaling, was also accepted to apply for the +.
So it should be fine here.

 

[SpookyShadow]

i'm fine with 9-A+ if that's the conclusion

 

[KLOL506]

Iirc the upscaling rule of like 25% within the border of the next tier and you stomp a character like that, granting upscaling, was also accepted to apply for the +.
So it should be fine here.

Well to be fair Majima didn't stomp Kiryu, Kiryu only casually tanked his punch which caused the floor to be shattered, and the additional shaking caused the entire thing to then fall apart, and the feat itself is a lowball due to me having no idea on what materials floors are made of so I went with the closest materials I could think of combined with the shaking, so...

 

[Armorchompy]

Iirc the upscaling rule of like 25% within the border of the next tier and you stomp a character like that, granting upscaling, was also accepted to apply for the +.
So it should be fine here.

There isn't really a rule since it's case by case, but the gap should be pretty small yeah

 

[KLOL506]

On another note, would an "At least Small Building level" rating work instead? It was done casually.

 

[Chariot190]

There isn't really a rule since it's case by case, but the gap should be pretty small yeah

Didn't we agree to use M3X's proposal on that upscaling thread Damage made a few months back?

and the feat itself is a lowball due to me having no idea on what materials floors are made of so I went with the closest materials

We could probably fix that, it was a office building right?

Edit: That looks like reinforced concrete judging by the screenshots in the calc.

 

[KLOL506]

Didn't we agree to use M3X's proposal on that upscaling thread Damage made a few months back?

We could probably fix that, it was a office building right?

Nah, it was a massive soap building (No it's not made of soap) that Majima ran a truck through. It was mildy shaking to sorta throw Kiryu off balance due to the truck and stuff, but Majima sent the entire shaking thing into overdrive with his floor punch. But we don't treat localized small-area shaking feats as legit earthquakes anymore, or else Majima would be high into Tier 8.

 

[Armorchompy]

"It is possible for a character who is depicted as vastly superior to another in a statistic to be placed in a tier above the other, given that the other character is close to the the next tier. However, this ultimately needs to be decided through case-by-case analysis."

 

[KLOL506]

"It is possible for a character who is depicted as vastly superior to another in a statistic to be placed in a tier above the other, given that the other character is close to the the next tier. However, this ultimately needs to be decided through case-by-case analysis."

Well, adding a + doesn't exactly put you in a new tier tho, you're still in your current tier but you're just higher than the average mean of that tier's joule value.

 

[Chariot190]

Looks like reinforced concrete none the less, plus unless it was an exceptionally old building, any building worth a damn would go for the former, especially in Japan given much like the west coast, earthquakes suck there.

Taking your values and swapping concrete v.frag with reinforced concrete v.frag, and then just adding the steel and marble yields you got.
Gets the final result to be, uh, 0.32 tons of TNT.

May want to look into that

 

[Armorchompy]

Well, adding a + doesn't exactly put you in a new tier tho, you're still in your current tier but you're just higher than the average mean of that tier's joule value.

Yeah but like, I think the idea is the same

 

[Armorchompy]

reinforced concrete seems correct btw

 

[KLOL506]

Looks like reinforced concrete none the less, plus unless it was an exceptionally old building, any building worth a damn would go for the former, especially in Japan given much like the west coast, earthquakes suck there.

Taking your values and swapping concrete v.frag with reinforced concrete v.frag, and then just adding the steel and marble yields you got.
Gets the final result to be, uh, 0.32 tons of TNT.

May want to look into that

It's an old building. Incredibly old, it was there even before Kiryu joined the Yakuza.

 

[KLOL506]

Looks like reinforced concrete none the less, plus unless it was an exceptionally old building, any building worth a damn would go for the former, especially in Japan given much like the west coast, earthquakes suck there.

Taking your values and swapping concrete v.frag with reinforced concrete v.frag, and then just adding the steel and marble yields you got.
Gets the final result to be, uh, 0.32 tons of TNT.

May want to look into that

Steel is part of reinforced concrete, there'd be no need to include steel separately again.

But again, the building is extremely old, and AFAIK, reinforced concrete is really only used on bridge pillars, defense buildings and nuclear towers and whatnot. I genuinely doubt someone would try to waste that much money for a soapland where people pay for making love.

 

[Chariot190]

It's an old building. Incredibly old, it was there even before Kiryu joined the Yakuza.

Not old enough from the looks of it. Definitely looks like reinforced (Given it's literally reinforced as the rebar and metal would suggest).
Shit looks 8-C to me, though idk what you wanna do in regards to frag, v.frag, etc. But if V.Frag 8-C looks the most accurate.

KLOL506 said:
Steel is part of reinforced concrete, there'd be no need to include steel separately again.

That's fine, we can just forego that steel.

 

[Chariot190]

But again, the building is extremely old, and AFAIK, reinforced concrete is really only used on bridge pillars, defense buildings and nuclear towers and whatnot. I genuinely doubt someone would try to waste that much money for a soapland where people pay for making love.

I mean, if it be like it do, it be like it do.

19691585.6123cm3 (concrete and steel) x 61.2jcc (reinforced concrete v.frag) = 1205125039.47276joules.

2354427.4343cm3 (marble) x 9jcc = 21189846.9087joules.

1205125039.47276+21189846.9087=1226314886.38146 joules total, 0.2931 tons of TNT, 8-C.

Idk if that's an outlier, consistent, or if your pixel scaling and volumes are on point, but assuming the pixel scaling is good, it be 8-C.
If that is indeed the case and we agree on the values, I guess the next step would be if it checks out and can still be used.

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, if it be like it do, it be like it do.

19691585.6123cm3 (concrete and steel) x 61.2jcc (reinforced concrete v.frag) = 1205125039.47276joules.

2354427.4343cm3 (marble) x 9jcc = 21189846.9087joules.

1205125039.47276+21189846.9087=1226314886.38146 joules total, 0.2931 tons of TNT, 8-C.

Idk if that's an outlier, consistent, or if your pixel scaling and volumes are on point, but assuming the pixel scaling is good, it be 8-C.
If that is indeed the case and we agree on the values, I guess the next step would be if it checks out and can still be used.

That's about 3.45x higher than Saejima's feat, which makes the floor-busting sort of shakey to begin with, but then again, Saejima did his feat while heavily-weakened, bruised and malnourished.

That being said, I'm still not convinced on it being completely reinforced concrete, very few rebars are visible (I know it was v-fragged but still, the rebars in this floor look tame and incredibly thin compared to the other rebar that is visible in the background that also have their iconic twist marks, and even in Kiwami where you can see the twist marks, they're seen to be as thin as wires right behind Majima), and it mostly seems to be supported by separate steel i-beams that aren't connected to the floor itself (As seen here, since Kiwami 2 doesn't let you access that mysterious hole that exists for some reason).

 

[Chariot190]

very few rebars are visible

I actually counted quite a bit, well, maybe rebar aint the right word, but reinforcing steel rods and beams, either way (reinforced buildinds technically dont even use rebar), you can even see chunks of the rebar in the rubble at the end here.
At the absolute worst, it's still quite a bit above basic concrete, though I'm still leaning toward reinforced.
Basing it on the images you used to scale, definitely still looks reinforced, maybe not like, military grade or high end modern day, but it definitely still looks to be the case.

Plus looking into it, reinforced concrete is used for things even as basic as simple dwellings and everyday buildings, and looking up images of the stuff in question, including the foundation, this is indeed reinforced, just not to a high end degree, so I gotta ask, what's our reinforced value even from? If it's standard it should work but if it's like where the material is 50% steel, obviously it wouldn't.

 

[KLOL506]

I actually counted quite a bit, well, maybe rebar aint the right word, but reinforcing steel rods and beams, either way (reinforced buildinds technically dont even use rebar), you can even see chunks of the rebar in the rubble at the end here.
At the absolute worst, it's still quite a bit above basic concrete, though I'm still leaning toward reinforced.
Basing it on the images you used to scale, definitely still looks reinforced, maybe not like, military grade or high end modern day, but it definitely still looks to be the case.

Plus looking into it, reinforced concrete is used for things even as basic as simple dwellings and everyday buildings, and looking up images of the stuff in question, including the foundation, this is indeed reinforced, just not to a high end degree, so I gotta ask, what's our reinforced value even from? If it's standard it should work but if it's like where the material is 50% steel, obviously it wouldn't.

The values from here

And I already noted the rebar but those are super thin, there's thicker rebar in Kiwami 2, so while it isn't ordinary concrete, it's also not flat-out reinforced concrete.

However, there's also the fact that I used the low-end v. frag strength of concrete (17 J/cc instead of 20 J/cc), and now that I look at it, there are only a few large pieces of marble/concrete (4 to be precise) while everything else is either dusted or looks to be outright liquefied I'd say.

 

[Chariot190]

I take it back, if the inside of the floor looks like that, that's an excessive amount, that's reinforced 101

 

[KLOL506]

I take it back, if the inside of the floor looks like that, that's an excessive amount, that's reinforced 101

That's... actually not the inside part of the floor LOL. That's literally the secret lower room inside where Majima and Kiryu fought. A year later and the place had even more solid debris fall into it. It's its own part and has its own rebar, separate from the smashed floor itself.

 

[Chariot190]

It's in your calc, you used it for scaling initially.

But it wouldn't matter, it's the same building right? If the internals of the building look like that, well, obviously it's not gonna be relegated to a single chunk of floor/wall. That ain't how buildings work.
If a part of the building looks like that, it's safe to say they reinforced that shit throughout.

Edit: Broken link, I'm talking about this scan.

 

[KLOL506]

It's in your calc, you used it for scaling initially.

But it wouldn't matter, it's the same building right? If the internals of the building look like that, well, obviously it's not gonna be relegated to a single chunk of floor/wall. That ain't how buildings work.
If a part of the building looks like that, it's safe to say they reinforced that shit throughout.

Yeah well it was a ****** up shot I used initially to get the area until I realized how ****** up the viewing angle was, the floor itself isn't that thick. the large debris themselves didn't exist when Majima punched through, those came a lot, lot later. Sure, the sides have a lot of metal bars coming out but they're not impressive looking by any standards compared to the normal rebar we can see in the games themselves, hence, the separate usage of concrete and steel.

However, like I already said, the marble only has like, 4 pieces left while everything is either A) turned to complete splinters or B) outright turned into black liquefied goo, so this feat might actually be Small Building level+ after all.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

It's an old building. Incredibly old, it was there even before Kiryu joined the Yakuza.

Not incredibly old. If it was built in '80, that's only 25 years old when Majima yeets Kiryu through its floor. And assuming a high-end of '46 (iirc there's dialogue in 0 that implies Kamurocho took a severe beating from American bombers in WW2, so there would be few original buildings left, and little if anything suggests the soapland is one of them), that's 59 years, which afaik isn't old enough to seriously impact the calc

 

[KLOL506]

Well, in that case I could work on a reinforced concrete variant.

 

[Chariot190]

No, that's completely fine. I'm mostly just taking said scan as evidence that the building uses reinforced concrete.
The floor doesn't need to be as thick as ya scaled it, but in regards to it being shown to be reinforced, well, I don't think it having wonky pixel scaling would change that.

Sure, the sides have a lot of metal bars coming out but they're not impressive looking by any standards compared to the normal rebar we can see in the games themselves

What's the rest of the game have to do with anything? I'm talking IRL and wiki standards. What we see should fit what we use the reinforced values for.
I counted like 27 before stopping so there's quite a bit in there.