Yakko vs Kratos (0-1-11)

[DaMonkeMan]

Voting Yakko FRA

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Hmmm... I'm not sure that would affect it.

Giving your argument the benefit of the doubt...

Why? Every time I ask someone about Aca 4, the answer is always dubiously vague. It's always a simple "no" without exactly explaining why. Unless you can give me a proper answer why, I won't accept your answer as valid.

 

[RaveeCPN]

Not really a plot resistence, more of a resistence to time manipulation to scape a time loop

If we count it as such, then there is no problem for me- But it still feels like resistance to plot hax to me

Then I'm voting Yakko FRA- But I can change my vote

 

[Georredannea15]

Giving your argument the benefit of the doubt...

Why? Every time I ask someone about Aca 4, the answer is always dubiously vague. It's always a simple "no" without exactly explaining why. Unless you can give me a proper answer why, I won't accept your answer as valid.

You are the one who knows this verse, not me. Does this verse have characters with Type 4 Acausality? And does Yakko Plot affect them with hax? So in the newly updated profiles, it is specifically noted that plot hax can affect haxs like Acausality or Transduality. Otherwise, it cannot.

For example Arale's profile.

 

[Epiccheev]

Plot hax is pretty much fate hax, but operating on a more meta level. (Toon Plot hax msot of the time revolves around a character going to a higher plane that sees his own story as fictional and then altering it.)
I'm unsure about acausality type 4 being resitance to plot hax too. Probably should ask if it counts as so in the QnA thread, and if it does plot hax should be added to things that can be resisted by having it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

You are the one who knows this verse, not me. Does this verse have characters with Type 4 Acausality? And does Yakko Plot affect them with hax? So in the newly updated profiles, it is specifically noted that plot hax can affect haxs like Acausality or Transduality. Otherwise, it cannot.

For example Arale's profile.

That isn't the question being asked. I've given you all of the information necessary. The only thing you need to do is explain why you disagree.

 

[RaveeCPN]

I'm unsure about acausality type 4 being resitance to plot hax too.

Well, I'm not sure if we can exactly call it "resistance", maybe we can IDK. But unless it is shown in the inverse that plot hax can affect something operating in a different causal system, it is absurd to claim that it can affect any type 4. But from what has been said above, I assume that Yakko is capable of doing such a thing.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Is someone counting the votes?

Also, like that acausality Type 4 has to do with Plot Manipulation? As someone above has already said, Yakko could call Warner and ask to remove Kratos for violating copyright, and what would that have to do with acausality type 4? Especially considering the example resisted abilities are "Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition"

I'm starting to find two things. 1 - A staff member to explain further, and 2 - The page to explain further and not simply say "among other things" in the resisted skills part.

But I find it a bit dubious to see anyone say that no matter what hax it is, you can't affect a type 4 acausality without feats for it. Because I think the page could say something as simple as that on the... page, so it wouldn't create this kind of confusion.

 

[Ss3micah]

Just letting you know now
By default, Acausal 4 grants no form of protection from Plot Manipulation

It’s not even listed as a resistance in the Acausality Page itself so not even sure why would you assume that

Acausal 4 in particular is basically acting/operating under irregular rules of time and/or Causality but that has nothing to do with the plot (usually) because in essence those irregular rules of time/causality are still apart of the plot.
Acting/Operating on different rules of time/causality DOES NOT equal being able to somehow act outside of the control of the plot itself (not without extreme context anyways) as by default because those irregular rules of time and causality are mentioned IN THE PLOT then they are equally affected by the Plot

In short order
Acausal 4 grants no resistance to Plot Manipulation
(Not by default and not without support from in Verse Context and Mechanics)

 

[RaveeCPN]

Also, like that acausality Type 4 has to do with Plot Manipulation? As someone above has already said, Yakko could call Warner and ask to remove Kratos for violating copyright, and what would that have to do with acausality type 4? Especially considering the example resisted abilities are "Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition"

This is because the plot of the character with type 4 will work in a different causal system. If your ability to manipulate the plot cannot affect a plot operating in a different causal system. Then it can't affect type 4 either.

So the plot hax in mentioned needs feats, statements from inverse etc.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

This is because the plot of the character with type 4 will work in a different causal system. If your ability to manipulate the plot cannot affect a plot operating in a different causal system. Then it can't affect type 4 either.

So the plot hax in mentioned needs feats, statements from inverse etc.

Just letting you know now
By default, Acausal 4 grants no form of protection from Plot Manipulation

It’s not even listed as a resistance in the Acausality Page itself so not even sure why would you assume that

Acausal 4 in particular is basically acting/operating under irregular rules of time and/or Causality but that has nothing to do with the plot (usually) because in essence those irregular rules of time/causality are still apart of the plot.
Acting/Operating on different rules of time/causality DOES NOT equal being able to somehow act outside of the control of the plot itself (not without extreme context anyways) as by default because those irregular rules of time and causality are mentioned IN THE PLOT then they are equally affected by the Plot

In short order
Acausal 4 grants no resistance to Plot Manipulation
(Not by default and not without support from in Verse Context and Mechanics)

 

[RaveeCPN]

@Phsccarvalho, that's not an answer to what I said

If a plot hax cannot affect a story that works in a different causal system, it cannot affect type 4. And you have not provided a logical explanation for this. Quoting random comments won't change anything

 

[JustANormalLemon]

This is because the plot of the character with type 4 will work in a different causal system. If your ability to manipulate the plot cannot affect a plot operating in a different causal system. Then it can't affect type 4 either.

No, not really, Let's exagerate the exemple, We as real life people all have Plot manipulation for any fiction by creating fanfics, manipulating fanfics is a form of Plot Manipulation, It don't matter the "casuality" sinse the entire existence of It is reduced to a fiction cenario that can just be rewriten

Yakko plot manipulation does basically that, getting out of the plot and giving him the power to modifie this script

He don't need to affect acasuality 4 whem the acasuality is reduced to fiction from his POV

 

[Georredannea15]

That isn't the question being asked. I've given you all of the information necessary. The only thing you need to do is explain why you disagree.

Even a plot can work according to cause and effect systems, unless it is stated in the verse. But since Type 4 Acausality, by its very nature, is outside of certain cause and effect systems and is not affected by them, it will not be affected by such plot haxs.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho, that's not an answer to what I said

If a plot hax cannot affect a story that works in a different causal system, it cannot affect type 4. And you have not provided a logical explanation for this. Quoting random comments won't change anything

Literally the user explained why acausality type 4 does not provide resistances.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

This thread is literraly about people thinking plot hax = Fate hax, sad

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Even a plot can work according to cause and effect systems, unless it is stated in the verse. But since Type 4 Acausality, by its very nature, is outside of certain cause and effect systems and is not affected by them, it will not be affected by such plot haxs.

That doesn't answer my question -- again.

 

[RaveeCPN]

No, not really, Let's exagerate the exemple, We as real life people all have Plot manipulation for any fiction by creating fanfics, manipulating fanfics is a form of Plot Manipulation, It don't matter the "casuality" sinse the entire existence of It is reduced to a fiction cenario that can just be rewriten

This is not a logical explanation. What you are comparing doesn't even have a fiction-to-fiction relationship. In fact, the fictions you are talking about do not work with a different causal system than ours.

Literally the user explained why acausality type 4 does not provide resistances.

And I explained why it shouldn't be like that

 

[Ss3micah]

@Phsccarvalho, that's not an answer to what I said

If a plot hax cannot affect a story that works in a different causal system, it cannot affect type 4.

Yeah this is in verse context
Their would need to be sufficient evidence that the character in question here (who has Acausal 4) has Acausal 4 based on reasons that not just include Time and/or Causality but also the Metafictional existence Narrative as well

If there is in verse supporting evidence that the reason for a characters Acausal 4 extends to not just time and/or causality but also the narrative as well then sure, Plot Hax can’t affect that Acausal 4 (not without feats of course of affecting someone similar anyways)

If however the character has like Rimuru reasonings for Acausal 4 that do not introduce a metafictional existing narrative and acting independently of it, then no dice, that character will get affected by Any Plot Hax as their Acausality does not factor the narrative into it

 

[Epiccheev]

In that case guess you can say acausality type 4 has to do with causality and time while plot hax deals with metanarratives?
So it's essentialy both achieve similar effects under different mechanisms

 

[JustANormalLemon]

Thinking again, I will vote Kratos, Plot hax isn't Yako first move and Kratos is skilled enough to get a hold of the toon, I think Kratos just kill the toon before he goes for plot hax most of the time

 

[Georredannea15]

Yeah this is in verse context
Their would need to be sufficient evidence that the character in question here (who has Acausal 4) has Acausal 4 based on reasons that not just include Time and/or Causality but also the Metafictional existence Narrative as well

If there is in verse supporting evidence that the reason for a characters Acausal 4 extends to not just time and/or causality but also the narrative as well then sure, Plot Hax can’t affect that Acausal 4 (not without feats of course of affecting someone similar anyways)

If however the character has like Rimuru reasonings for Acausal 4 that do not introduce a metafictional existing narrative and acting independently of it, then no dice, that character will get affected by Any Plot Hax as their Acausality does not factor the narrative into it

I mean, if plot hax doesn't have any feats about effecting a reality or character that is outside certain cause-effect systems, that plot hax only works on cause and effect, and characters that are outside of certain cause-effect systems are not affected by that plot hax

Characters with type 4 Acausality already exist outside of certain cause-effect relationships by default. If the plot works in a cause and effect framework, it does not affect Type 4 Acausality.

Plot hax need a feat for it. This applies not only to Acausality, but also to haxes such as TD, NEP...

 

[Undylan]

5-0-0

I don't believe Acasual type 4 would interfere with plot hax. It's rather completely different with time hax. Like, can Kratos resist something like an animator's pencil coming out of nowhere to erase him or just suddenly doing a fortnite emote with Yakko?

 

[RaveeCPN]

If there is in verse supporting evidence that the reason for a characters Acausal 4 extends to not just time and/or causality but also the narrative as well then sure, Plot Hax can’t affect that Acausal 4 (not without feats of course of affecting someone similar anyways)

There is no need for this. Now what you're saying is nothing but NLF. Any plot hax can't affect things that are not in the story that it can affect. And if the story we are talking about does not contain a different causal system, then we have no choice but to accept type 4 > plot hax.

 

[Ss3micah]

And I don’t believe Kratos has that kind of Acausality
To my knowledge, GoW never established any form of Metafictional elements nor a Metafictional existing narrative
And a statement of “All Events” is just Causality without further elaboration of Metafictional aspects

So any Plot Hax would work on Kratos or any other GoW character
Hence why KLOL himself stated that Plot Hax is the biggest Achilles Heel of the Verse because they almost have no answer for it

 

[Epiccheev]

Yakko FRA

 

[Dragonite007]

Yakko FRA

 

[Georredannea15]

And I don’t believe Kratos has that kind of Acausality
To my knowledge, GoW never established any form of Metafictional elements nor a Metafictional existing narrative
And a statement of “All Events” is just Causality without further elaboration of Metafictional aspects

So any Plot Hax would work on Kratos or any other GoW character
Hence why KLOL himself stated that Plot Hax is the biggest Achilles Heel of the Verse because they almost have no answer for it

It's not that the Acausality Type 4 mentioned here has a Acausality that won't be affected by the plot hax. All type 4 Acausalities are by nature outside of certain cause and effect. And if plot hax is depends on cause and effect, then this plot hax cannot effect this beings.

If a plot hax depends on cause and effect cannot affect entities outside of certain cause-effect systems, namely Type 4 Acausality.

 

[Undylan]

Yakko FRA.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

If I take God of War, change the model of Kratos for a Fish with arms and legs would the acasuality protect him from beingh a fish? no, interacting with the narrative ignores enything that is inside the narrative It self, acasuality would only protect Kratos if his acasuality gave him resistence to 2 layers of narratives over his scale of fiction, what It don't give him, Yakko plot hax literaly makes his original universe 2 layers of fiction bellow him self

There is no time that will save Kratos if he is just a history in Yakko view

(Still voting Kratos sinse for me he will kill Yakko before the toon uses his plot hax)

 

[Georredannea15]

It's not that the Acausality Type 4 mentioned here has a Acausality that won't be affected by the plot hax. All type 4 Acausalities are by nature outside of certain cause and effect. And if plot hax is depends on cause and effect, then this plot hax cannot effect this beings.

If a plot hax depends on cause and effect cannot affect entities outside of certain cause-effect systems, namely Type 4 Acausality.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who wins or not. But I want you to know that this is how it works.

 

[Georredannea15]

If I take God of War, change the model of Kratos for a Fish with arms and legs would the acasuality protect him from beingh a fish? no, interacting with the narrative ignores enything that is inside the narrative It self, acasuality would only protect Kratos if his acasuality gave him resistence to 2 layers of narratives over his scale of fiction, what It don't give him, Yakko plot hax literaly makes his original universe 2 layers of fiction bellow him self

There is no time that will save Kratos if he is just a history in Yakko view

(Still voting Kratos sinse for me he will kill Yakko before the toon uses his plot hax)

If the plot hax you do to change into this fish depends on the cause and effect system, this plot hax will not affect the characters outside of certain cause and effect systems(Acausality Type 4 beings) That's what I've been saying ever since. I don't care who wins or loses.


For example, you are doing a plot hax. Your reason = desire to turn to fish

Result=The action you took to turn it into a fish. This is a cause and effect relationship, but as Type 4 Acausality entities are outside of certain such cause and effect systems, this plot will not be affected. That's why Plot hax needs a feat in itself.

 

[Ss3micah]

It's not that the Acausality Type 4 mentioned here has a Acausality that won't be affected by the plot hax. All type 4 Acausalities are by nature outside of certain cause and effect. And if plot hax is depends on cause and effect, Type 4 Acausality cannot affect entities by default.

Read the page for the Plot Manipulation Hax
It DOES NOT depend on cause and effect it emulates cause and effect

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).

The plot manipulation page also makes clear:
Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to govern and control the PLOT, not just cause and effect but the entirety of the Plot itself. Anything mentioned in the Plot is apart of the Plot and anything apart of the Plot can be manipulated by Plot Manipulation. Beings who have Acausal 4 just for simply being independent of regular cause and effect DOES NOT in any form or degree means they are naturally unaffected or exist outside of the plot. They are still apart of it (unless in verse mechanics say otherwise) hence why Plot Manipulation can affect Type 4 Acausal beings.

Irregular systems of cause and effect do not function independently of the narrative without supporting evidence and as long as the narrative mentions you and their is no statement that supports you being independent of it then plot Hax can affect you

That’s how it’s always been
That’s hell a legit reason why Plot Manipulation can even affect NEP 1 beings who are Conceptually or Informationally non existent. Simply because they still exist within the the narrative hence why they can be affected by it

 

[JustANormalLemon]

If the plot hax you do to change into this fish depends on the cause and effect system, this plot hax will not affect the characters outside of certain cause and effect systems(Acausality Type 4 beings) That's what I've been saying ever since. I don't care who wins or loses.

Kratos is not real whem you look It in a plot hax direction, Kratos is just a fictional character for the view of plot manipulation, Acasuality does nothing against plot hax beacuse plot hax by It self ignores whatever is lower them the narrative It self

 

[Georredannea15]

Read the page for the Plot Manipulation Hax
It DOES NOT depend on cause and effect it emulates cause and effect

• Users may be able to determine how things will proceed by writing into the plot what is going to happen (emulating fate, causality and/or probability manipulation).

The plot manipulation page also makes clear:
Plot Manipulation is the ability to create, destroy, or control the plot that governs reality. Commonly found in metafictional stories, the plot can be understood as a fundamental aspect of reality once one views that reality as fictional. It is the description of the world that doesn't only describe, but determines, reality itself. As such, by altering the plot, one can achieve virtually any effect, in a similar fashion as with Reality Warping.

Plot Manipulation is the ability to govern and control the PLOT, not just cause and effect but the entirety of the Plot itself. Anything mentioned in the Plot is apart of the Plot and anything apart of the Plot can be manipulated by Plot Manipulation. Beings who have Acausal 4 just for simply being independent of regular cause and effect DOES NOT in any form or degree means they are naturally unaffected or exist outside of the plot. They are still apart of it (unless in verse mechanics say otherwise) hence why Plot Manipulation can affect Type 4 Acausal beings.

Irregular systems of cause and effect do not function independently of the narrative without supporting evidence and as long as the narrative mentions you and their is no statement that supports you being independent of it then plot Hax can affect you

In fact, if you look at the profile, you'll already see that Kratos is unaffected by the plot changes in the verse.

That’s how it’s always been
That’s hell a legit reason why Plot Manipulation NEP 1 beings who are Conceptually or Informationally non existent. Simply because they still exist within the the narrative hence why they can be affected by it

That's basically it. But as it can vary from fiction to fiction, it would be an NLF to assume every plot this way without the feat.

Yes basically, things like cause and effect, duality and concept are a fiction to the plot but it is NLF to assume them in every verse without the feat.

 

[Ss3micah]

That's basically it. But as it can vary from fiction to fiction, it would be an NLF to assume every plot this way without the feat.

Yes basically, things like cause and effect, duality and concept are a fiction to the plot but it is NLF to assume them in every verse without the feat.

Here on VSB
Plot is assumed Equal to Concept and Information type 2 Hax
And Causality is ranked lower than all three

Your right when you say it can vary from fiction to fiction
But we have a clear set of standards here that help strike the balance

Plot Manipulation, Concept Manipulation and Information Manipulation Type 2 pretty much dismisses and ignores Causality as a whole

In GoW and Kratos case,
To put it simply
Unless you can look us dead in the eye and say that Kratos exists independently from the narrative itself then he is apart of it and if he’s apart of it then Plot Hax can affect him

Plot Hax doesn’t DEPEND on cause and effect, rather it DETERMINES how cause and effect even works and that extends to irregular causality once it is mentioned to exist within the narrative

So Kratos acting on irregular causality matters very little when plot manipulation can write how irregular causality even works to begin with and Causality is not above nor equal to the narrative. It’s below it. Every cause and effect that happens in any story only occurs because the plot writes it to happen

That’s the default
Hence why the Acausal 4 page specifically doesn’t mention narrative nor plot nor any resistance to it in any likeness
You need in verse feats and supporting context for that

 

[Georredannea15]

Here on VSB
Plot is assumed Equal to Concept and Information type 2 Hax
And Causality is ranked lower than all three

Your right when you say it can vary from fiction to fiction
But we have a clear set of standards here that help strike the balance

Plot Manipulation, Concept Manipulation and Information Manipulation Type 2 pretty much dismisses and ignores Causality as a whole

In GoW and Kratos case,
To put it simply
Unless you can look us dead in the eye and say that Kratos exists independently from the narrative itself then he is apart of it and if he’s apart of it then Plot Hax can affect him

Plot Hax doesn’t DEPEND on cause and effect, rather it DETERMINES how cause and effect even works and that extends to irregular causality once it is mentioned to exist within the narrative

So Kratos acting on irregular causality matters very little when plot manipulation can write how irregular causality even works to begin with and Causality is not above nor equal to the narrative. It’s below it. Every cause and effect that happens in any story only occurs because the plot writes it to happen

That’s the default
Hence why the Acausal 4 page specifically doesn’t mention narrative nor plot nor any resistance to it in any likeness
You need in verse feats and supporting context for that

As I just explained, not all plot haxs work like this. If there is no success in the verse that can affect entities outside of causality/certain causalities, it would be a real NLF to say that this plot hax can affect beings with Type 4 and Type 5 Acausality.

Don't get me wrong, plot hax basically works as you say, but it also depends on the context within the verse.


And I'm pretty sure it works that way, which is why I've seen examples like "Can effect Acausality Type 4 beings" or "Can effect Transduality beings" in some updated profiles, especially next to plot hax. For example Arale, I don't know if I have given an example before.

And as I said before, Kratos is not affected by the plot changes in GoW.

 

[JustANormalLemon]

If you guys only want to discuss how Plot hax and acasuality type 4 interact, creat a discussion thread for that instead of discussing on Yakko vs Kratos Thread, It's flooding It with side debate

 

[Huesito88]

Is Yakko Broadway Force 5D?

 

[Ss3micah]

If you guys only want to discuss how Plot hax and acasuality type 4 interact, creat a discussion thread for that instead of discussing on Yakko vs Kratos Thread, It's flooding It with side debate

Yeah lol
I’m sorry for the derailment
Anyways I’m neutral more or less
It depends on how fast Yakko uses Plot Hax
If he goes for it quickly then GG
If Kratos gets a hand on him first the GG the other way