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Xenoblade Chronicles 3 Spoiler Discussion Thread

Magicomethkuon said:
After reading on sufficient material, I've begun work on Xenosaga Blogs that I believe will be of great help for the series to receive character profiles later on. It's a long and hard effort. Time to update each day being limited and all, but I have loads of information to arrange and share. It's such a brain-melting rich cosmology to just leave ignored.
Click to expand...

If by 'rich' cosmology, you mean some of the biggest retcons and worst character assassinations any continuity could ever conjure upon the world (and yes, I've ranted and raved, and I will let people know of that fact)

On a side note:

comquoteglitch.png


No quote found
Click to expand...

VS wiki format okay?
 
Joycap said:
If by 'rich' cosmology, you mean some of the biggest retcons and worst character assassinations any continuity could ever conjure upon the world (and yes, I've ranted and raved, and I will let people know of that fact)

On a side note:

comquoteglitch.png


VS wiki format okay?
Click to expand...
Fidus achates, how could you insult this flawless masterpiece? Nevermind, I'm not Margulis. Xeno has always been a clusterffffoffffstars. If you mean character development and how they choose to steer the story, I agree, especially when events are drawing to a close. Don't know how much Chronicles will be the same. These three are in my waiting line.

But we don't need to deny lengths gone for detail and world-building before we can complain about storytelling. I can say the stars are beautiful even when the people sitting under them decide to make no sense.

(Format is fine, I quoted you by accident at first.)
 
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Magicomethkuon said:
Fidus achates, how could you insult this flawless masterpiece? Nevermind, I'm not Margulis. Xeno has always been a clusterffffoffffstars. If you mean character development and how they choose to steer the story, I agree, especially when events are drawing to a close. Don't know how much Chronicles will be the same. These three are in my waiting line.

But we don't need to deny lengths gone for detail and world-building before we can complain about storytelling. I can say the stars are beautiful even when the people sitting under them decide to make no sense.
Click to expand...

Heh, I suppose that last bit of sophistry isn't exactly disagreeable. But as I keep saying to the Enelcordians and the like that tell me to 'pack up' because the end of Saga III is over 17 years old (...oof, where did that time go?) - the regrets that Takahashi has learned from are still relevant to his works today. And I don't have to have the nostrils of a bloodhound to smell goalpost-moving when the very thing he's 'written off as a failure' is starting to seep back into his works in a bizarrely non-committal way. Something is telling me he didn't want to make some of the decisions that he's forced to commit to.

As for Saga and it's characters, there's a set of terms I... compiled, shall we say? Along the lines of 'Agency and Accountability', and how the two have a little but of each other in how they overlap and contrast (a bit like yin and yang, in a sense). If we take Shion as an example (of who I have a laborious amount of detail on in my script, but the documents are back at home, so don't expect me to cite anything yet) - I think in the first two games, her balance of these concepts were well handled (her workaholism always coming to the front of my mind as part of her agency, and calling out the powers that be in various scenarios playing into her sense of accountability (and I'm aware of the whole 'mental illness' talks, and I've spoken at length about that in the script, so I won't open that can of worms here)). However in III, the narrative almost strawman's how much she takes responsibility for other people's bullsh*t - so when it comes to what I simply refer to as 'the retcon' (/ the 'Gnosis summoning dis-qualifier'), her agency is effectively thrown out the window for the sake of the plot, at a point in the story that is already bending over backwards to tell lies about 'her past' (as I've said to several, there is seldom any distinction between the events that the likes of the Saga III database try to describe (already a collection of discredited articles due to matters of the Y-data, the Testaments and... Jin being classed as one, for some reason?) - and actual temporal manipulation due to how the U.M.N is described).

This reply has gone on longer than I earnestly intended, so I hope I've given you all something to chew on. It's also why I've had concerns about how the reasoning for Blade scaling post-FR, despite being involved in discussions of revisions described thusly. I think a lot of this can be categorised as one thing, and one thing alone: Plot-Induced Stupidity. It's why I've ordained to contest stuff like 'Matthew being in possession of Pneuma's core crystal' despite consistent character actions implying that Rex would leave the Aegis girls in the hands of the Trinity Processor and not to the city folk (even knowing Matthew/Na'el's Agnian ancestry, how would he know of these two specifically?) - this being something I plan to write an article about at some point, and is something I've been thinking about since @JoshSSJGod and I talked about it, and he left it at 'we don't know how the CC got there, but-'. And I want to make it clear that this is not grounds for a nerf (mostly on a count of the scaling chains being so open-ended, that Matthew ending up with or without Pneuma's power wouldn't change his standing). So, uh... stay tuned?
 
Magicomethkuon said:
After reading on sufficient material, I've begun work on Xenosaga Blogs that I believe will be of great help for the series to receive character profiles later on. It's a long and hard effort. Time to update each day being limited and all, but I have loads of information to arrange and share. It's such a brain-melting rich cosmology to just leave ignored.
Click to expand...
Sure, send me the link and I'll do my best to help when I get time.
 
I have seen LPs for Xenogears and the first Xenosaga, but of course most of the best feats come form its extended material such as guidebooks and stuff. I know that KOS-MOS has some solid Massively FTL+ feats she does quite early on. And Fei has one his attacks being a literal Big Bang in Xenogears.
 
I am curious though, what tier are you going for with Xenosaga? It was rated pretty high on the wiki back in like 2017 before it was deleted as a mod thought it was inaccurate instead of just making a CRT.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
I am curious though, what tier are you going for with Xenosaga? It was rated pretty high on the wiki back in like 2017 before it was deleted as a mod thought it was inaccurate instead of just making a CRT.
Click to expand...
1-A As I write the blog in-depth, I think the Imaginary and Upper Domains have the potential to go high, but I have no tier in mind yet. First I want to compile everything that is of relevance, then discuss with others and determine where in the system the Upper Domain should qualify. If we can determine that and the Imaginary Domain, we can also determine U-DO, Mary, the Testaments and from there, anyone else.

By the end characters have free-scaling to the Testaments or other ridiculous achievements most notorious of them all, Ziggurath-8, breaker of Dmitri Yuriev's neck. The reason U-DO doesn't show itself is that it's afraid of how he keeps doing it. like fighting Zarathustra. Code name: I have the power of every plot device combined.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
1-A As I write the blog in-depth, I think the Imaginary and Upper Domains have the potential to go high, but I have no tier in mind yet. First I want to compile everything that is of relevance, then discuss with others and determine where in the system the Upper Domain should qualify. If we can determine that and the Imaginary Domain, we can also determine U-DO, Mary, the Testaments and from there, anyone else.

By the end characters have free-scaling to the Testaments or other ridiculous achievements most notorious of them all, Ziggurath-8, breaker of Dmitri Yuriev's neck. The reason U-DO doesn't show itself is that it's afraid of how he keeps doing it. like fighting Zarathustra. Code name: I have the power of every plot device combined.
Click to expand...
From my knowledge and blog. The lowest you can go for is Low 1-C with this as per the Upper Domain, the fun part however is the Imaginary Numbers Domain. as per the blog it contains "All concepts" which would inherently include the concept of dimensions given higher dimensions in on itself are a part of cosmology (plus stuff like where the Hilbert Effect got it's name from), it'd mean the highest you can go with it and reasonably so would actually be 1-A as per being infinitely above the concept of dimensions.
 
Being infinitely above the concept of dimensions on VSBW is only one dimension higher than the max number of dimensions the verse entertains without further context
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Being infinitely above the concept of dimensions on VSBW is only one dimension higher than the max number of dimensions the verse entertains without further context
Click to expand...
Well yes but actually no. Being infinitely beyond the concept of dimensions by the literal meaning would be 1 above the max dimension number. If its infinitely beyond the human concept of dimensions however then that changes things as that brings in stuff like Hilbert Space for example which makes it much higher.
 
The honest truth is that it will depend on what being beyond physical dimensions, then the very concept of physical dimensions and any of its equivalents in here is. In Saga, it's to the extent that nothing in dimensional realms can ever touch or reach. I'm not exactly sure how these kinds of existence will be rated in these forums. In some these are standards for 1-A, in others they aren't. I don't know how it will turn out here, but so long as the given tier accurately describes what the series evidences I'll have nothing to complain about at the end of work.

The Real Number Domain has everything physical, including dimensions of space and time. The Imaginary Number domain is a step above this and holds a superior kind of abstract equivalents to time, space and everything that dimensional space holds. Including the very concepts of these things.

The Upper is plain impossible to describe in any word or concept that mankind can use. In Saga, any existence that can be defined by anything in the aforementioned ranges of description is below an Upper Domain existence to a level where they cannot ever even recognize it, and even an avatar from above is too much to handle unless you have some domain absurdity going, yourself. A great many times, the Infinite Energies coming from U-DO are more like people coming into contact with one or another of its terminal avatars manifested in the Real or Imaginary Domains.

In the absolute simplest approach we'd have Real Number Domain being 4-D, Imaginary number domain 8-D (since it has a perfect mirror of everything in the Real Number Domain but transcendent and in conceptual form, etc, it would have at least 4 other superior dimensions and Imaginary Space and Time are confirmed > than RND space-time).

Then simple avatars created to exist within the Lower Domain like an U-DO observation terminal are sources of infinite energy in the Imaginary Domain.

And finally the Upper Domain would be...at absolute least 16-D because it has a dual structure of its own, even if the story never delves on it.

My problem with this is that then we'd measure the Upper Domain in exact same way as any other lower domain. Something contained in the descriptions of space and time. Both story and creator hammer that the UD spits on the face of these concepts and any words we apply to it are just analogies, not true equivalency. I have mental belief that anything tied to dimensional existence cannot reach the Upper Domain, but I understand that great lengths would be necessary to prove that and even greater ones to have others share the same pov.

So I'll be walking into this with level-headed thinking and open mind.
 
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Magicomethkuon said:
The honest truth is that it will depend on what being beyond physical dimensions, then the very concept of physical dimensions and any of its equivalents in here is. In Saga, it's to the extent that nothing in dimensional realms can ever touch or reach. I'm not exactly sure how these kinds of existence will be rated in these forums. In some these are standards for 1-A, in others they aren't. I don't know how it will turn out here, but so long as the given tier accurately describes what the series evidences I'll have nothing to complain about at the end of work.

The Real Number Domain has everything physical, including dimensions of space and time. The Imaginary Number domain is a step above this and holds a superior kind of abstract equivalents to time, space and everything that dimensional space holds. Including the very concepts of these things.

The Upper is plain impossible to describe in any word or concept that mankind can use. In Saga, any existence that can be defined by anything in the aforementioned ranges of description is below an Upper Domain existence to a level where they cannot ever even recognize it, and even an avatar from above is too much to handle unless you have some domain absurdity going, yourself. A great many times, the Infinite Energies coming from U-DO are more like people coming into contact with one or another of its terminal avatars manifested in the Real or Imaginary Domains.

In the absolute simplest approach we'd have Real Number Domain being 4-D, Imaginary number domain 8-D (since it has a perfect mirror of everything in the Real Number Domain but transcendent and in conceptual form, etc, it would have at least 4 other superior dimensions and Imaginary Space and Time are confirmed > than RND space-time).

Then simple avatars created to exist within the Lower Domain like an U-DO observation terminal are sources of infinite energy in the Imaginary Domain.

And finally the Upper Domain would be...at the absolute lowest least 16-D because it has a dual structure of its own, even if the story never delves on it.

My problem with this is that then we'd be treating the Upper Domain as functioning the exact same way as any other lower domain. Something that is contained in the descriptions of space and time. Both story and creator hammer that the UD spits on the face of these concepts and any words we apply to it are just analogies, not true equivalency. I have mental belief that anything tied to dimensional existence cannot reach the Upper Domain, but I understand that great lengths would be necessary to prove that and even greater ones to have others share the same pov.

So I'll be walking into this with level-headed thinking and open mind.
Click to expand...
Fair nuff, at the end of the day I can just ask Ultima to take a look. Though I ain't sure on the IND jumping to 8-D based on it being a perfect mirror. People are gonna have issues with that I can see it now.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
Fair nuff, at the end of the day I can just ask Ultima to take a look. Though I ain't sure on the IND jumping to 8-D based on it being a perfect mirror. People are gonna have issues with that I can see it now.
Click to expand...
It's fine, the lower domain is a lot easier to talk about than the Upper. I'd be surprised if this part were questioned however. There's already proof of the first 4 dimensions being contained in the RND. Then stated proof of another dimension of space, and another dimension of time in the realm above. Putting that together with persistent statements in the Perfect Guide that there is absolutely nothing without a counterpart in the Imaginary (I think I saw the writer hit this same point of No exceptions! at least 3 times). And that everything in the Imaginary is more complex, it is very unorthodox to me to conclude that Imaginary Space and Time would suddenly be reduced to having only two extra dimensions rather than four to match.
 
JoshSSJGod said:
I am curious though, what tier are you going for with Xenosaga? It was rated pretty high on the wiki back in like 2017 before it was deleted as a mod thought it was inaccurate instead of just making a CRT.
Click to expand...
Afaik, Aeyu did say on Discord the Upper Doman > Path of Sephirot > Lower Domain > Imaginary Numbers Domain > Real Numbers Domain transcendence would put it up to 1-C (8-D) at minimum. She vaguely remembers 1-A stuff, but doesn't know + everyone in the old server now defunct couldn't find anything 1-A. And a different friend did do some research regarding some Imaginary Numbers domain statements that got into details to specify 1-A. And given the multitude of dimensions above it, I have heard proposals for it being like High 1-A for the god tiers. But I am no expert on 1-A and above stuff obviously, so cannot objective have the best confidence of this being foolproof.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Afaik, Aeyu did say on Discord the Upper Doman > Path of Sephirot > Lower Domain > Imaginary Numbers Domain > Real Numbers Domain transcendence would put it up to 1-C (8-D) at minimum. She vaguely remembers 1-A stuff, but doesn't know + everyone in the old server now defunct couldn't find anything 1-A. And a different friend did do some research regarding some Imaginary Numbers domain statements that got into details to specify 1-A. And given the multitude of dimensions above it, I have heard proposals for it being like High 1-A for the god tiers. But I am no expert on 1-A and above stuff obviously, so cannot objective have the best confidence of this being foolproof.
Click to expand...
I don't know if you had the time to look at the blog post I have in the works and was linked above, but I agree with the dimensional scale of the domains more for the reasoning that I denoted in regards to Real Number Domain having 4 dimensions and therefore the Imaginary Number Being a perfect, transcendent counterpart to it meaning that it should have another four at the least. Since there can exist nothing in the RND without a counterpart in the IND and at least two extra dimensions are word by word stated. They play an important role in the story.

That's actually without including the Upper Domain's own dual structure which I can see being very high depending on which interpretation of its extent passes.

On the downside we actually can not include the Path of Sephirot in Xenosaga's scaling chain. That is exclusive to the Lore of Gears.
 
I'm curious Magic. What is your plan for all this? Obviously you're going to get Xenosaga back onto the wiki but in what manner are you going to do it?
 
Joycap said:
@DarkDragonMedeus Wasn't Path of Sephirot a Gears thing and not Saga?

Even despite my ire with Saga's continuity, I have not seen Sephirot mentioned once
Click to expand...
It is Gears only, yes.
JoshSSJGod said:
I'm curious Magic. What is your plan for all this? Obviously you're going to get Xenosaga back onto the wiki but in what manner are you going to do it?
Click to expand...
Good question! It's going to be a step-by-step effort. First, I need to finish the blog that I posted above in a comprehensive manner to include all the things that may affect scaling chains.

Afterwards I want to get a few profiles done, starting with U-DO and KOS-MOS. From there potentially chaos. Albedo, Rubedo and Wilhelm are also good options.

As I make profiles for each of these characters, I'll create individual blog posts for their feats and lore (U-DO probably won't need one though, because its feats are intrinsically connected to the lore). This will help to make them comprehensive and easy access. That way, people interested in the series will always have a source of information that can be easily found for any of the Saga characters that get a profile.

And it also reduces odds of misconceptions happening, or CRTs born from people not finding the source for one or another index.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Good question! It's going to be a step-by-step effort. First, I need to finish the blog that I posted above in a comprehensive manner to include all the things that may affect scaling chains.

Afterwards I want to get a few profiles done, starting with U-DO and KOS-MOS. From there potentially chaos. Albedo, Rubedo and Wilhelm are also good options.

As I make profiles for each of these characters, I'll create individual blog posts for their feats and lore (U-DO probably won't need one though, because its feats are intrinsically connected to the lore). This will help to make them comprehensive and easy access. That way, people interested in the series will always have a source of information that can be easily found for any of the Saga characters that get a profile.

And it also reduces odds of misconceptions happening, or CRTs born from people not finding the source for one or another index.
Click to expand...
I schnee, the profiles part is probably what I can help with the most as that is what I have the most experience with. I'm not sure the individual blog part will be needed though as you can just explain in detail on the profile. I've done that with numerous Xenoblade profiles and that has worked well.
 
CloverDragon03 said:
Cross-scale it to Xenoblade somehow 🗿
Click to expand...
And then, for Xenogebladega's climactic showdown, KOS-MOS actualized the Xenoblade before also turning crimson red for her activation of System MagIDalene
JoshSSJGod said:
I schnee, the profiles part is probably what I can help with the most as that is what I have the most experience with. I'm not sure the individual blog part will be needed though as you can just explain in detail on the profile. I've done that with numerous Xenoblade profiles and that has worked well.
Click to expand...
That'll be of great help. Profile-making looks like an overwhelming effort to me and I'm not as sure how I would go about making them compared to the blogs. Much appreciated!
Joycap said:
Reminder that I have Albedo and Margulis profiles that have been sitting around for a year and some change.

Feel free to C/P and amend those if you want @Magicomethkuon

vsbattles.fandom.com

Joycap/sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Albedo! This will help me a lot. I think I'll be able to navigate the making of any profile that falls in my hands a lot better if I can use yours as the starting framework. Now they will name a holiday after Albedo for sure.
 
Magicomethkuon said:
That'll be of great help. Profile-making looks like an overwhelming effort to me and I'm not as sure how I would go about making them compared to the blogs. Much appreciated!
Click to expand...
Oh trust me, it ain't easy in the slightest. I've gotten much better at it throughout the years as I've gotten a ton of practice with making dozens of profiles such as all of the Xenoblade 3 profiles.
 
PS: unrelated to anything but:

finalsagaupdate.png


For anyone who wants access to the final version of the script - here.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
What is the Elsa's speed pre gate jump?
Click to expand...

No clue, but it was an educated guess given KOS-MOS light beams + Hyperspace travel info literally going on record as 'lightspeed travel'

Magicomethkuon said:
That Wilhelm edit........that is the power of a god. In my eyes, you still won.
Click to expand...

Thanks ig. And yes, there were ideas for an amended Wilhelm as well (pages 145-162 if you're curious)
 
Joycap said:
No clue, but it was an educated guess given KOS-MOS light beams + Hyperspace travel info literally going on record as 'lightspeed travel'



Thanks ig. And yes, there were ideas for an amended Wilhelm as well (pages 145-162 if you're curious)
Click to expand...
If they travel at light speed with hyperspace, wouldn't that mean pre-gate jump would be below that?
 
The Elsa is SoL travel speed in Normal Space. It's a plot point at the end of EP III, even.

This Urashima effect will undoubtedly affect Shion and the party who are searching for Lost Jerusalem aboard the light-speed cruising Elsa. The Elsa crew will come to count a different flow of time from both the Dammerung, which travels at normal speed, and Lost Jerusalem. After several years, what kind of phenomenon might they encounter?

Even with light-speed travel, will perhaps the Elsa, which cannot use gate jumps, ever reach Lost Jerusalem,continuing on an aimless journey? But as luck would have it, the Elsa and Dammerung and the rest, which had escaped from the havoc of the domain shift, had been transferred to the same galaxy as Lost Jerusalem. That was not mere chance. It was an outcome due to the intention of Wilhelm, the guardian of the dimensional universe.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Even early in the 1st game, KOS-MOS has some Massively FTL+ speed feats. There is a cutscene of a ship escaping in epic battle and mentions "Only ship within a 5000 lightyear radius."
Click to expand...
I can't fact-check right now, wasn't that distance covered mostly because they made it to a UMN transfer column? Either way only asking because I don't remember and curious, relativistic to SoL Elsa always looked strange. There's so much weaving past rains of interstellar lasers, or out of a pair of blackholes in range that looks like escaping the event horizon....there's even that happening while flying in hyperspace. Likely that SoL Elsa claims are PIS.
 
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Also this has been going. Very slow because as expected, interest in Xenosaga isn't exactly high. Will be bumping day by day. Gotta escape eternal recurrence at some point.
vsbattles.com

Bringing Xenosaga to a Higher Dimension: Cosmology

Agree: 10 (7 users, 2 staff admin, 1 Calc Staff) @Setsuna_tenma , @Violatas , @DarkDragonMedeus (Staff Vote) , @Gonzalo , @BLS , @Luckyfun , @Celestial_Pegasus (Staff Vote), @JTGamer96, @CloverDragon03 (Calculation Staff Vote), @AdamVhenJP Disagree: 1 (1 staff admin) @Firestorm808 (Only possibly...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Magicomethkuon said:
Also this has been going. Very slow because as expected, interest in Xenosaga isn't exactly high. But I'll be bumping day by day. Gotta finish at some point.
vsbattles.com

Bringing Xenosaga to a Higher Dimension: Cosmology

Agree: 10 (7 users, 2 staff admin, 1 Calc Staff) @Setsuna_tenma , @Violatas , @DarkDragonMedeus (Staff Vote) , @Gonzalo , @BLS , @Luckyfun , @Celestial_Pegasus (Staff Vote), @JTGamer96, @CloverDragon03 (Calculation Staff Vote), @AdamVhenJP Disagree: 1 (1 staff admin) @Firestorm808 (Only possibly...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
Click to expand...
This is like my Xenoblade threads but worse because even less people know about Xenosaga
 
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