Xeelee : The Transcendence's Possible Tier Revision

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

Okay, can an admin unlock it so I can make the seperate keys?

Uh, the number of higher dimensions is probably more than 10^82 + 11 'base' dimensions.

10^80 is just rough guess. I just haven't done any 'calc' to determine the exact number.

Oh well, I'll modify it myself.

Edit : on the second thought, nevermind. I doubt it'd change anything.

 

[Antvasima]

Have the changes been made yet?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

There might be something else, but for now you should probably relock them.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If there aren't statements saying that they directly alter configuration space on a fundamental level, then adding "possibly 1-B" seems fine, I suppose.

I don't think anything higher than that goes beyond speculation, right now.

And I'd still like more on just how the Transcendence alter configuration space, but I understand if that doesn't exist/isn't easily found.

 

[Antvasima]

@Zachary

Okay. I will do so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Could fundamentally alter configuration space and control all of it's dimensions"

Quotes of such specifically were not provided, hence why I said configuration space should be a minimum of 1-B but that the Transcendence could only get a "possibly" without something more clear.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

"Could fundamentally alter configuration space and control all of it's dimensions"

Quotes of such specifically were not provided, hence why I said configuration space should be a minimum of 1-B but that the Transcendence could only get a "possibly" without something more clear.

Well, you can always modify the page yourself. Replace 'At least' with 'Possibly'. Seems simple enough.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What I want to ask is should that be an entirely separate key, though? Or is it just another interpretation of their power?

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

What I want to ask is should that be an entirely separate key, though? Or is it just another interpretation of their power?

Probably should be separate. Its pretty clear that there's literally 'unbreachable' gap between Pre-singularity and Post-singularity.

Post-singularity many times said to be 'more infinite' than Pre. Pre is compared to 2D while Post is compared to 0D. To picture how drastic the change is. You might go as far to say there's no commonality between Pre and Post anymore.

So there's dimensional gap between two states.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright, I've changed it and gotten rid of some things that seem to purely be assumption based more so than things outright stated.

Also, could someone tell me where these things come from?

• This level of regen (" It was implied that even if every human body and mind in the multiverse throughout history, which is what composes the very being, was erased, it would be unaffected and could even bring them back")

• Resistance to Law and Conceptual Manipulation

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

Mid godly is from their ability to genocide all humanity. Retcon them all to not exist. But Transcen themselves are humanity gestalt, and iirc its implied that Transcen can wish themselves back to existence even after that multiversal genocide (Wat?).

Its confusing and paradoxical. The novel even acknowledges that.

No idea where the resistance comes from really. Maybe its one packet of Post-Singularity being 2 steps above reality? Dunno, ask Zacch

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Do you happen to have quotes about the regen thing? Because it would only be regen if the Transcendence actually stopped existing during this process. Otherwise it's just a transcendent sort of acausality.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

In the Restoration, every human that possibly could have existed would be brought into reality. It would be a stunning, shining moment of rectification. Such trivialities as causality and consequence would be abandoned — but the Transcendence would be infinite, I reminded myself; and to an infinite being even infinite tasks are trivial. But still it wasn't enough.Leropa said, her voice silky, "One way or another the Redemption must be completed. And if atonement cannot be achieved then it would be better to make a simplifying choice. "I knew what she meant. "If you don't exist, you can never suffer." The ultimate simplicity of extermination. "The Cleansing is within our grasp, if we will it to be done. "She was right. It was right. And at that moment even the dreadful notion of the Cleansing didn't dismay me. I was within the Transcendence, yet I was the Transcendence. For a brief moment I shared its huge ambitions, and its limitless fears — and I faced its dilemma. I felt as if I were trapped under an immense weight.

Bolded.

If there is no solace to be found? What then?" Leropa sighed. "If suffering exists, no redemption may be possible. But need it have been so? What if humans had never existed at all? What if the Earth had remained lifeless, like the Moon? Then there would have been no suffering to atone, no evil to redeem — no sin to expiate. Perhaps that would be a better state of affairs than to allow ineradicable suffering to exist, without the possibility of healing." Alia stopped in her tracks. "Are you serious?" "It is the final stage of Redemption, its ultimate logic. We call it the Cleansing. It is not that mankind will cease to exist," said Leropa quietly. "It never will have existed. And it could be arranged quite easily. Remember, the Transcendence can restore the dead to life, with a mere gesture. This final solution is almost elegant. Economical." A cold anger burned in Alia. "Is this where the logic of love has led the Transcendence — to love mankind so much that it must be eliminated?" "This is only a possibility," Leropa said. "But in what is to come, you must always remember that this dark possibility is there —

^Cleansing. The ability to do retroactive EE on all humanity.

But I haven't found any implication of them surviving. Oh hell, just get rid of Mid Godly then, but keep the Type 5 Acausality.

XXX

Can be supporting statements to Transcen's 1-B nature :

Transcen can See Ultimate Truth

I saw it all. I enjoyed a deep understanding of the fabric of the cosmos, from the minuscule symmetries of the fundamental objects from which space and time were ultimately constructed, all the way to the jewel-like geometry of the universe as a whole, folded over on itself in higher dimensions — although now I saw that those two poles of structure, large and small, were in fact one, as if all of reality were folded together again on some more abstract scale. [...] And yet we got some of it right, I thought with a surge of pride, we primitives on our single, muddy, messed-up little world. But that sense of pride quickly dissipated when I saw that this jewel-like structure of knowledge, this "ultimate truth," was ancient. The total understanding dreamed of by the physicists of my time, the limits of their imagination, had not only been achieved, but long ago — and it had been overshadowed by deeper mysteries yet.

Transcendence's mind can see the universe's dimensions are folded upon higher dimensions.

But they are folded down upon more abstract scale.

Fully cognizant of the universe, Transcen can see the "ultimate truth" of the xeeleeverse.

Impossible dimension

She rose again, lifting up through some impossible dimension, so that the whole of the Transcendence opened up around her.

Alia compared the experience of 'joining transcendence' to be : as if she's rising towards "impossible dimension".

 

[Antvasima]

I removed "at least" from the 1-B ratings of the Monads, as there was no justification for High 1-B or above. Is this accurate?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/index.php?title=Monads&diff=3593785&oldid=3592934

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It was based on the Transcendence being "At least 1-B", which was changed to "possibly 1-B".

I haven't really weighed in on the Monads though, since we haven't been discussing them, so I guess it's not super important, right now?


Also, alright, I guess I'll remove the Mid-Godly regen for right now, and it can be restored if we find something to better justify it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[Lucis=the=Lumenian]

I haven't really weighed in on the Monads though, since we haven't been discussing them, so I guess it's not super important, right now?

Their most notable 'feat' is them being the first in Xeeleeverse. And them being super abstract thing that exist in aspatiotemporal realm.

Monads exist only through 'relation to each other'. So they're less like beings and more like 'relations' I guess lol.

Basically Monads and Transcen are similar in nature if you looked hard enough.

 

[Jockey-1337]

10^80 is equal to number of particles in the universe, right? But config space includes an infinite amount of dimensions/possibilities.


From space battles :

Q: did anyone even prove Configuration Space is infinite? Because as far as Reality Dust showed, it deals with all possible states a single universe can take, which are not infinite, no matter how huge a number they are.

- trexalfa


A: Yes.

The amount of possible histories of the main universe is infinite. We do know that said histories originate only from the main universe, given how all of them are supposed to be resolved in the "timelike infinity". An "event" in the distant future of the main universe.

["And so you believe," came the Ghost's simulated voice, "that this universe is essentially transient— all you sense, all you achieve, even your experiences of your inner self will pass away."

"Not transient, exactly," Burden called back. "Just one of an uncountably infinite number of possibilities which will, cumulatively, be resolved at timelike infinity, after the manner of a collapse of quantum functions." - Exultant]

[Then there were boundaries at infinity. Spacelike infinity contained all the places infinitely remote from the observer… and there was a boundary far upwhen, at timelike infinity. At the end of all world lines.

The initial singularity, and the boundaries at spacelike and timelike infinity, were all Cauchy boundaries. - Timelike Infinity]

As to reach an infinite amount of possible ( non repetitive ) arrangements one has to have an infinite amount of stuff to arrange, which means that there is also an infinite amount of possible states in the configuration space of the main universe where said states are mapped into. -sufficient

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

>Possibly High 1-B Transcendence


Holy shit...

 

[Jockey-1337]

So High 1-B Xeeleeverse civilizations?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

The Xeelee Profile is suuuuuper outdated anyway

Might give xeeleeverse humanity a profile later

 

[Jockey-1337]

> Looking at The Xeelee profile

> Discussions: Tyranids (40k) vs The Xeelee (Xeeleeverse)

Hahaha

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask Azathoth to comment here via his message wall.

 

[Jockey-1337]

So, after reading through the blog, I have a few thoughts, but I just want to verify something before anything else.
"Reth glared at him, eyes hard. 'You are beginning to understand. Now. Imagine a space of stupendously many dimensions.' He held up a dust grain. 'Each grain represents one configuration of all the particles in our universe, frozen in time. This is reality dust, a dust of the Nows. And the dust fills configuration space, the realm of instants. Some of the dust grains may represent slices of our own history.'"

This quote is referring to Configuration Space, is it not?

May I ask you to comment on my post?

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Wait


Would full power Transcendence be 1-A?

 

[Elizhaa]

Wait

Would full power Transcendence be 1-A?

If anyone can prove that it transcends True-Platonic Concept [or Concept (Type 1)] or have Transduality which are the easiest qualifications.

The other way is if one can prove it transcends all infinite dimension or the concept of dimension along with space and time transcendence altogether - statement could be hard to found.

 

[Antvasima]

Transduality is uncertain. In real philosophy it qualifies, but fiction can be inconsistent and contradictory.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Hmm

If the universe is spatially infinite, as many dimensions as particles in the universe = High 1-B Configuration space

Transcendence having a realm transcending all concepts as well as all spacetime including configuration space = 1-A?

 

[Elizhaa]

If the universe is spatially infinite = High 1-B

as many dimensions as particles in the universe = 1-B

Transcendence having a realm transcending all concepts as well as all spacetime including configuration space = 1-A? If it transcends High 1-B space not 1-B

 

[Antvasima]

It is only 1-A if it is qualitatively superior to all dimensions of time and space. Simply transcending infinite dimensions usually means infinite + 1 dimensions = High 1-B.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I mean, the way the Transcendence's realm is described could be 1-A

 

[Elizhaa]

You do need a statement like Antvasima's statement above for Tier 1-A

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

I believe that you should go for Tier 1-A only and also adding more justification
From Exultant :

" An abstract, static, Platonic realm — a place of morbid contemplation, a consolation for ageless pharaohs as they sought to justify the way they administered the suffering of their fellow creatures."

Actually yes, this does sound 1-A for full power Transcendence

 

[Elizhaa]

Sound like 1-A since the realm is not described as less than true Platonic.

1. True Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are completely transcendent of reality in every aspect. These forms are 1-A in nature, as they are beyond all spatial and temporal dimensional constructs and all of reality merely "participate" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the form of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of reality. These concepts must exist prior to and after the existence of any object of the concept.

 

[Antvasima]

You need input from knowledgeable administrators and bureaucrats before assigning a 1-A tier, particularly Azathoth.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, simply calling something Platonic without further context is not enough to qualify.

 

[Wokistan]

It would need to actually show signs of behaving akin to the realm of forms or whatever it's called Plato envisioned with his theory of forms to use that.

 

[Antvasima]

Agreed.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

To be fair, it being a "Static platonic realm" is just conceptual manipulation and type 5 acausality