(WR2M3) 8-B Shooters Tournament: Mukuro Ikusaba VS Solid Snake

[Psychomaster35]

Hub

Previously, we have had 16 shooters sign up and fight for their lives, and 8 unfortunately fell. However, the other 8 have succeeded on their first try, feeling relief they could live another day, but of course, it wasn’t over. We begin the first winner’s match as the Ultimate Soldier and slayer of the Guardian Angel, Mukuro Ikusaba (nominated by @Adem_Warlock69), fights the clone of Big Boss and slayer of the White Witch, Solid Snake (nominated by @Popted2)!

Battle Trance Mukuro is used. Rules stated in the tournament hub.

Who wins?

Mukuro Ikusaba:

Solid Snake: 7 (Popted2, GlaceonGamez471, FantaRin The First, XSOULOFCINDERX, Lacku, Adem Warlock69, DemonicDude)

Inconclusive:

 

[Chariot190]

Ok so, she says "higher" with weapons, but how much is "higher" in this context? Is it like a **** ton higher to where it's effectively a tier above or something? or is it just like a bit higher?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Ok so, she says "higher" with weapons, but how much is "higher" in this context? Is it like a **** ton higher to where it's effectively a tier above or something? or is it just like a bit higher?

If she had a weapon she could have fought Sakura to a draw whom she was ultimately outclassed by, so probably the latter (Her firearms still shred characters that stomp her tho, but that's mostly because of piercing damage)

 

[Chariot190]

What's her skill chain looking like.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

What's her skill chain looking like.

(In Danganronpa "Ultimates" stand above all others in the world being the pinnacle of skill and ability in whatever Ultimate talent they specialize in. For example, Kazuichi Souda, the Ultimate Mechanic, is able create Giant Monokuma, who's so mechanically advanced that even NASA scientists can't understand his remote control system)

Mukuro is the Ultimate Soldier, scouted and trained in the military group "Fenrir" ever since she was a child, and has never received even a single injury during all of her years fighting as a soldier. It has also been stated that even a single member of Fenrir is the equivalent of an entire army of soldiers, and Mukuro is the best among all of the Fenrir members. (Her training included parachuting down the while the sky was being bombarded with anti-air fire)

Due to her training she is highly proficient in both a variety of firearms, knives, explosives such as grenades, and hand-to-hand combat to the degree she is able to hold her own, or even defeat equally as trained individuals, she has fought and bested the Ultimate Swordswoman Peko Pekoyama in a sword fight while only using a knife.

• Peko Pekoyama, who was trained by the Kuzuryu clan since she was a baby, was capable of holding her grounds against Kyosuke Munakata, who effortlessly thrashed, The Ultimate Wrestler, Great Gozu and sees Takumi Hijirihara as a non-threat. It should be noted that Takumi himself is skilled enough to deflect multiple fireworks from Ted Chikatilo right back at him with his eyes closed, fodderize Mukuro's worshippers even when they ambushed him (One of them completely wiped out the 8th branch security guards), and Juzo Sakakura, the Ultimate Boxer, seems to fear him.

Mukuro has also matched Sakura Ogami, the Ultimate Martial Artist and a master of all forms of martial arts, in unarmed combat for 10 minutes straight while only receiving a single bruise. Sakura Ogami had fought in over 400 professional martial arts matches and never lost, and was capable of beating gold medalist wrestlers and boxing champions as a child.
Astoundingly, she has also killed all eight of the Madarai Brothers (The Madarai brothers were a group of octuplets that were collectively considered skilled enough to be the Ultimate Bodyguard) without taking even a single hit; and that was when they ambushed her.

Mukuro has also parried all of Junko Enoshima's attacks while carrying on a normal conversation with her, which is exceptional due to Junko's analytical talent

• Junko being the Ultimate Analyst, has analytical skills that are good enough to be indistinguishable from precognition. She's able to read and analyze anything virtually instantaneously, being able to determine the personality, abilities, thoughts, and history of her foes with a mere glance. Thanks to this Talent, Junko has defeated Juzo Sakakura and stand her ground against Sakura Ogami

And once she used Battle Trance, Mukuro fought off endless hordes of Monobears, up to a hundred robots which were programmed specifically to fight Mukuro while being shot at by mounted machine gun turrets, and was defeating them without suffering a single injury with nothing but a sharpened pipe.
This feat made Junko say "Describing her as ''Ultimate" no longer did her justice. Mukuro had transcended the boundaries of humanity and became a pure killing machine."

TL-DR: Battle Trance Mukuro >= Sakura >>> Mukuro >= Peko Pekoyama =< Kyosuke >> Takumi > Juzo/Gozo > The Madarai Brothers >>> Everyone who isn't an Ultimate
or
Battle Trance Mukuro >= Sakura >>> Mukuro =< Casual Sakura > Monokuma/Junko > Juzo Sakakura > The Madarai Brothers >>> Everyone who isn't an Ultimate

 

[Armorchompy]

I think Mukuro can definitely hang in there in a fight, idk who's better since I dunno the MG scaling chain as well as Chariot, but she's definitely outmatched in versatility, there's basically nothing Mukuro can't do that Snake doesn't have a similar version of while he's decked out with a lot of really nasty tricks.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

there's basically nothing Mukuro can't do that Snake doesn't have a similar version of while he's decked out with a lot of really nasty tricks.

True, although Mukuro has the LS advanatage, superior Madness Manip, acrobatic skills that are superhuman enough to almost be considered flight and basically Ultra Instinct

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh Snake has some... incredibly goofy acrobatic feats of his own. But really something like a sleep gas grenade or invisibility, she doesn't really have a counter to.

As I understand, Mukuro doesn't use the singing in combat, does she? Still Snake resists Mind Manip, which is close enough to Madness Manip to classify as a resistance.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also I know this is the most annoying thing ever but the LS scaling on the Danganronpa end is kinda sus

 

[Chariot190]

Excluding the "fought a bunch of dudes" at once feats because feats like that really don't amount to anything especially with power gaps, especially if you're like one shotting them or said dudes aren't skilled at all, and Sakura being in 400 matches means **** all when she could throttle them even without skill. Though she is skilled, that is kind of a nothing feat given she's also like 10000x stronger than most of her foes. Also that one line says a fefnir soldier is equal to a company, which is 80 soldiers, not a whole army (though it also says they claim one is equal to that, given his tone he sounds like he isn't sure if it's factual or not, even if they are extremely skilled, though there's also again the issue of power gaps).

Some of that is noteworthy, the feat that holds the most weight imo is the Junko feat given her analytical skills.
Unfortunately, I think Snake probably skill stomps in CQC, if they enter CQC he might straight up win, especially given he knows CQC, which is a martial arts meant to counter like all other martial arts, somehow. She might be skilled but MGS skill chain is dumb as shit, you know that when super soldiers aren't worth mentioning and ******* like Gene is on the low end of things and there's characters who have analytical skill too to where they know what an opponent is gonna do before they do it, and they aren't even the top of the chain either. And Snake is like ten skill stomps above that, pure hand to hand to skill for Snake is pretty ridiculous as he's basically at the top of that skill chain. He even has like reactive evolution for skill, being able to fight dudes who can skill stomp him after just a bit. The firework feat is something I'd assume any sword dude in MGS could replicate given they can deflect a hail of bullets from multiple directions and shit.


Snake has a wide variety of weapons too, some of which have hax, like empathetic manip ammo, which can even reduce those struck to madness. Other such weapons include tornado shit, snipers, even railguns. Also has grenades, smoke bombs, flash bangs, sleep grenades, and more.
For tech, he has the soliton radar, which will pinpoint his enemy's location depending where they are, he has various camo, from octo camo and octo mask that will allow him to blend in and mask his thermal signature, he also has infinite ammo bandana which grants him infinite ammo and a invisible camo that makes him optically transparent, unable to be seen.

He, of course, is also a good shot and an expert in all fields of firearm combat, throwing weapons, etc and can mix gunplay into CQC and the such if need be.

He's a master of stealth, able to slip in and out of combat and hide to take his foes out if the need for that comes to be, in character he always tries to take foes out without being spotted, as his foe knows where he is to start, he may hide, or he may not, depends on the character he faces and the environment, if forced he will fight face to face, but if he can, he very well may slip away and do his usual schtick.
Being able to attack while invisible and the fact he will always outlast due to better stamina but mostly due to literal infinite ammo.

 

[Armorchompy]

I should mention that to my knowledge Junko isn't actually a combatant, like she has info analysis but I don't think she has actual training or noteworthy offensive feats, I may be wrong but her profile doesn't report martial arts or anything like that.

 

[Chariot190]

That would be a issue, dudes like Gene and Vamp are both extremely skilled AND have info analysis.

 

[Armorchompy]

Admittedly her info analysis is probably a notch or two higher than theirs, it gets mighty silly in some instances, and I don't know if I agree with the idea that Snake stomps in CQC, I think she at least holds her own somewhat but generally I can't see her winning too often

 

[Chariot190]

Between CQC and the fact someone like Gene is actual garbage idk, Gene has wacky skill feats and he low key might be below the genome soldiers in skill. And they're literal fodder.

Though yeah her info analysis is better.

 

[Popted2]

voting Snake for Chariot and Chompy reasons

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Snake FRA

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Excluding the "fought a bunch of dudes" at once feats because feats like that really don't amount to anything especially with power gaps, especially if you're like one shotting them or said dudes aren't skilled at all, and Sakura being in 400 matches means **** all when she could throttle them even without skill. Though she is skilled, that is kind of a nothing feat given she's also like 10000x stronger than most of her foes.

While that may be true for the Sakura's 400 matches. The Mukuro Worshippers and The Monobears have all been shown to be capable of harming their foe with their weapons (Takumi for the Worshippers and Mukuro for the Monobears), with the latter even being stated to be capable of killing Mukuro if they landed a single hit.
The Madarai Brothers have also bruised Characters who are tougher than Mukuro.
One Mukuro Worshipper wiping out The Security Guards is still somewhat impressive since stronger and faster characters still get shredded by the security guard's firearms.

He's a master of stealth, able to slip in and out of combat and hide to take his foes out if the need for that comes to be, in character he always tries to take foes out without being spotted, as his foe knows where he is to start, he may hide, or he may not, depends on the character he faces and the environment, if forced he will fight face to face, but if he can, he very well may slip away and do his usual schtick.

Mukuro's Enhanced Senses kinda counter Snake's Stealth, since he still makes noise while he's invisible and the fact that the Monobears probably have better camo and Mukuro still didn't get hit by a single one

I should mention that to my knowledge Junko isn't actually a combatant, like she has info analysis but I don't think she has actual training or noteworthy offensive feats, I may be wrong but her profile doesn't report martial arts or anything like that.

Junko has used her info analysis in combat, like when she defeated Juzo Sakakura despite the fact that Juzo is Tier 8 while she's Tier 9 and was able to match Sakura while she was controlling Monokuma thanks to her precog

Still I think Mukuro's Battle Trance feat is a bit above Snake's skill feats, Mukuro fought Hundreds of Monokuma's programmed specifically to fight her and some controlled by Junko (So they have her Precog), all capable of one-shotting her, without getting hit once and winning with nothing but a sharpened pipe.

 

[Chariot190]

While that may be true for the Sakura's 400 matches.

Exactly, it isn't exactly a skill feat.

The Mukuro Worshippers and The Monobears have all been shown to be capable of harming their foe with their weapons (Takumi for the Worshippers and Mukuro for the Monobears),

Yeah but in turn they have AP, but they aren't exactly extremely skilled.

You have one feat of stomping hundreds of skilled fodder, but one feat of fighting strong dudes that aren't anything special skill wise.

with the latter even being stated to be capable of killing Mukuro if they landed a single hit.

Perhaps, but if she survived by skill ******* not that skilled foes, while that is a good skill feat, it might not be that overblown.

The Madarai Brothers have also bruised Characters who are tougher than Mukuro.

Yeah but how skilled are they? What skill feats do they have that would make it a relevant skill feat for beating them?

One Mukuro Worshipper wiping out The Security Guards is still somewhat impressive since stronger and faster characters still get shredded by the security guard's firearms.

Isn't that just a matter of don't get shot?

Mukuro's Enhanced Senses kinda counter Snake's Stealth, since he still makes noise while he's invisible and the fact that the Monobears probably have better camo and Mukuro still didn't get hit by a single one

Every single enemy in MGS has enhanced senses, from hearing, to vision, they're all genetically enhanced genome soldiers, and Snake can stealth them just fine, in fact he can stealth entire groups of them. And they're not even the worst things he's stealthed, he's stealthed tengu soldiers too and frogs. Unless her enhanced senses are absolutely ridiculous, he's stealthing her even WITHOUT his invisible camo.
Invisible camo just adds on top of that. Along with a dozen other types of camo and masking.

And for Monokuma, invisibility is invisibility, how the hell would they have "better" invisibility? Snake's camo literally bends light making it so he can't be seen. Couple that with Snake 100% having better stealth then them, he is going to be far harder to fight while invisible.

Also you haven't explained how she gets around snake tossing aoe sleep grenades, homing attacks, or his various other hax she has no resistance towards. He also outlasts her, and he has infinite ammo so if they get into a shootout, he won't run out of ammo but she will.
And if we're getting into s k I l lore we should probably talk about Null/Grey Fox's skill feats.

 

[Chariot190]

Juzo is Tier 8 while she's Tier 9

If she defeated her that would just make her tier 8 though? You can't defeat someone with skill alone if you can't even harm them. If she harmed a tier 8, she's tier 8.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Yeah but in turn they have AP, but they aren't exactly extremely skilled.

You have one feat of stomping hundreds of skilled fodder, but one feat of fighting strong dudes that aren't anything special skill wise.

Perhaps, but if she survived by skill ******* not that skilled foes, while that is a good skill feat, it might not be that overblown.

One Monobear could match Sakura in CQC, has Junko's precog and was programmed specifically to fight Mukuro.

The Monobears seem to me like pretty skilled strong dudes.

Yeah but how skilled are they? What skill feats do they have that would make it a relevant skill feat for beating them?

As the Ultimate Bodyguards, they stand above all others in the world being the pinnacle of skill and ability in bodyguarding. They're also repeatedly stated to be the "Immortal" Bodyguard.

Every single enemy in MGS has enhanced senses, from hearing, to vision, they're all genetically enhanced genome soldiers, and Snake can stealth them just fine, in fact he can stealth entire groups of them. And they're not even the worst things he's stealthed, he's stealthed tengu soldiers too and frogs. Unless her enhanced senses are absolutely ridiculous, he's stealthing her even WITHOUT his invisible camo.

By gaining control in the battlefield, she can somewhat turn the surrounding place into a part of herself. It was described as her being able to see out the back of her head, and as well as having her skin covered with eyes.

Her Enhanced Senses also were able to discern and pickup the sound of any movement with her ears alone while tens of Monokumas were making a lot of noise to distract her. She was also able to instinctively dodge an explosion before she knew it was coming due to her senses.

Also you haven't explained how she gets around snake tossing aoe sleep grenades, homing attacks, or his various other hax she has no resistance towards. He also outlasts her, and he has infinite ammo so if they get into a shootout, he won't run out of ammo but she will.

Does Snake use those in-character? Mukuro can also probably dodge them (Battle Trance is basically Ultra Instinct)
Mukuro has an aggressive fighting style, so i doubt she'll try to drag out the fight till Snake or she runs out of Stamina

If she defeated her that would just make her tier 8 though? You can't defeat someone with skill alone if you can't even harm them. If she harmed a tier 8, she's tier 8.

Junko kept evading Juzo's attacks and using her meat shields till he ran out of Stamina which let her thrash him with a wooden bat

 

[Chariot190]

One Monobear could match Sakura in CQC, has Junko's precog and was programmed specifically to fight Mukuro.

Ignoring their fight was more of a clash than a full-blown fight against Sakura. I never said it wasn't a good feat, I am saying Monokuma's aren't exactly the pinnacle of skill.

The Monobears seem to me like pretty skilled strong dudes.

Strong yes, skilled yes, but you gotta realize how high a skill ceiling we're talking about here. Hell snake LITERALLY has skill based reactive power level.

As the Ultimate Bodyguards, they stand above all others in the world being the pinnacle of skill and ability in bodyguarding. They're also repeatedly stated to be the "Immortal" Bodyguard.

Yeah no I got that, that's obvious, but we're talking about skill chains we're the absolute lowest is beyond anything a human is capable of, which is why I asked for some feats as them just being beyond any other body guard is literal fodder here.

By gaining control in the battlefield, she can somewhat turn the surrounding place into a part of herself. It was described as her being able to see out the back of her head, and as well as having her skin covered with eyes.

Cool, but that doesn't help if your foe is literally invisible.

Her Enhanced Senses also were able to discern and pickup the sound of any movement with her ears alone while tens of Monokumas were making a lot of noise to distract her. She was also able to instinctively dodge an explosion before she knew it was coming due to her senses.

Yeah that's genome soldier tier, maybe, genome soldiers use data from Null as a base and enhanced by Big Boss's genes, at they very least they should scale to Null's sense feats.
But if that's the case, Snake is going to have zero issue using stealth, those feats aren't good enough to say she can pick up on Snake if he's trying to be stealthy if hundreds of biologically enhanced soldiers all with super senses, cyborgs, Mecha with numerous scanning devices, and more being things he can just stealth.

Does Snake use those in-character?

He uses everything in character, if he has it and it's useful, he will use it, one of his main philosophies for battle is to use everything you have to the fullest. He's even a master of on site retrieval, they usually send him on missions with literally nothing but basic shit, and he's forced to aquire weapons, tech and equipment on site, he doesn't even have to do that here, he has all his stuff, which is such a wide variety of shit it could fill a book. In character his first choice is ALWAYS stealth though, he will either avoid a fight (not an option here) or take his foes out by surprise (stealth takedown, putting them to sleep with weapons, distraction, sniping, simply blowing their heads out from behind, etc, though he's strayed from killing a bit and has leant more towards incap later in life). But if you force him into a fight, he will use whatever is best suited to defeat his for from what he was procured.

Mukuro can also probably dodge them (Battle Trance is basically Ultra Instinct)

How is she gonna dodge AOE?

Mukuro has an aggressive fighting style, so i doubt she'll try to drag out the fight till Snake or she runs out of Stamina

Yeah but Snake what if Snake drags it out? He's going to be dipping, *******, hiding behind shit, using cover, slipping in and out of combat, etc, unless like, she pulls an Ocelot and they just say **** it and fist fight, or she pulls a Mantis (hostage, forcing him to fight directly) or they're in an enclosed space like a large room, he'd fight face to face, but in an urban environment, he's gonna make use of that environment.

Also helps Snake has fought in plenty of fire fights including ones where he is massively outnumbered by dudes with automatic weapons and shit (some even scripted) so he's definitely capable.

But yeah, thinking between his invisibility+high end stealth that can fool those with superhuman senses, infinite ammo and wide selection of weapons which grants him a huge versatility and hax advantage, Snake might be able to win high diff.

 

[Chariot190]

Junko kept evading Juzo's attacks and using her meat shields till he ran out of Stamina which let her thrash him with a wooden bat

Did it hurt him?

 

[Chariot190]

Oh shit, Snake actually has empath grenades, that will induce fear, anger, laughter/madness and sadness, before the afflicted fall unconscious. So it's not even just empath ammo, it's empath explosives too. Though idk if we're counting if he has these? If he does that'd be an easy win condition, but they're a NG+ item so idk.

He also has grenades that create steam that burn (white phosphorus) and two methods of sleep explosives.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

Did it hurt him?

Have watched the anime where Junko fought against Juzo, and uh... Well, I don't think Junko actually did any real damage on Juzo, he got tired out, sure, but nothing else; the only Junko 'won' was due to Juzo being in the closet and her threatening to reveal his sexual inclination to the man that he loved, who was also his best friend, and he gave in due to Japan's stigma against Homosexuality... yeah, that was a thing and there is a part of the danganronpa fandom that does not like talking about it.

Oh shit, Snake actually has empath grenades, that will induce fear, anger, laughter/madness and sadness, before the afflicted fall unconscious. So it's not even just empath ammo, it's empath explosives too. Though idk if we're counting if he has these? If he does that'd be an easy win condition, but they're a NG+ item so idk.

He also has grenades that create steam that burn (white phosphorus) and two methods of sleep explosives.

Also, I can't quote all of your reasons on why Snake victory, but I do think they are pretty solid... like a snake, heh. So, Snake FRA.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Snake FRA.

 

[Chariot190]

Have watched the anime where Junko fought against Juzo, and uh... Well, I don't think Junko actually did any real damage on Juzo, he got tired out, sure, but nothing else; the only Junko 'won' was due to Juzo being in the closet and her threatening to reveal his sexual inclination to the man that he loved, who was also his best friend, and he gave in due to Japan's stigma against Homosexuality... yeah, that was a thing and there is a part of the danganronpa fandom that does not like talking about it.

Wait if she effectively black mailed his ass how is that even a skill feat?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Wait if she effectively black mailed his ass how is that even a skill feat?

She didn't immediately blackmail him, he ran out of stamina first

 

[Lacku]

Snek FRA

 

[Popted2]

2 votes left

 

[DemonicDude]

Snake FRA.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Ignoring their fight was more of a clash than a full-blown fight against Sakura.

Most of the fight was off-screen, so ehhh

How is she gonna dodge AOE?

Jump

But yeah, thinking between his invisibility+high end stealth that can fool those with superhuman senses, infinite ammo and wide selection of weapons which grants him a huge versatility and hax advantage, Snake might be able to win high diff.

Yeah, sure
Snake FRA

 

[Popted2]

Grace

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

And the metal gear reference (Mukuro) loses against the real thing (Snake), I suppose that's about right.

 

[Armorchompy]

huh, never considered that she might be, but that makes sense