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Why is Tier 5 Sonic an outlier?

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DeathstroketheHedgehog

DeathstroketheHedgehog

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Not arguing for Tier 5, just asking a question.

I've noticed that Tier 6 Sonic scales from another character, and then pretty much nearly everyone scales to Sonic.

I've never noticed any 'limitations' or the likes that would imply Base Sonic peaks at High 6-A or anything, and since everyone just scales from Sonic rather than their own feats, it wouldn't make Sonic an outlier to the cast.

So where does the idea of 'Tier 5 Base Sonic is an outlier' come from?
 
One of the reasons that it's assumed to be an outlier was Infinite's Sun being in the High 6-A range (although the calc needed some adjustments) and that the crew would've died from it.

Which is false. Not only did Sonic fight Infinite at his presumable peak later on in Null Space, but he also fough the Death Egg Robot later on in Forces who's superior to Infinite and is also powered by the Phantom Ruby. As for 5-A, I'm going to avoid talking about that. Try getting some other people in here if you want.
 
It's not so much an outlier as Sonic could only harm Dark Gaia and Perfect Chaos by going for their weak spots, the eyes and brain respectively.
 
Neutral, but the reason they were downgraded was because Sonic and Knuckles were unable harm 5-B Chaos 6 body unless by freezing and shattering it, Matthew said that the eye or a weak spot is far less durable that its main body and Howard proposed that the tier 5 feats should be the low-end for the Super Characters since Super Sonic previously defeated Perfect Chaos, i also heard that there are more tier 6 feats than 5 for them, that Ultimate Emerl was unable to sustain all that energy and Eggman [supposedly calced 5-A] black hole attack oneshots Sonic, Infinite Sun and etc.
 
Actually eyes are more durable than the rest of the body(I've seen enough obliterated skulls to know this). Sonic & Knuckles cause double damage to Chaos 6 with their special attacks,we would have to apply the weak point game mechanic logic to everything else if we use it in this one instance.I support tier 5.
 
Characters regularly need 6 or 7 Emeralds in order to actually perform Tier 5 feats. Also, Chaos 6 or Perfect Chaos shouldn't scale to base Sonic because that would strongly contradict the entire plot of Sonic Adventures. Even Base Chaos has consistently been portrayed as being on par with the likes of Base Sonic and even bested Base Knuckles at one point. This also persists in other games such as Sonic Battle. Base Sonic isn't able to harm Chaos 6 without freezing them; which would be a weakness to ice for Chaos 6 rather than AP.

And Perfect Chaos is an even more outlierish. Perfect Chaos is introduced as a character who's overwhelmingly stronger than the entire Sonic Team put together; with the exception of Super Forms obviously. In fact, Sonic never actually fought on par with him. All he did was go inside his body to attack his internal organs. Being able to attack someone from the inside is durability negation rather than power scaling. Not a hax feat either, just a weakness large sized characters normally have. Bacteriophage isn't Street level for making Peak humans sick.

As for Dark Gaia, Sonic doesn't scale from him either. Reason is because he once again never even fought toe to toe with him to begin with. That was Chip/Light Gaia who fought toe to toe with base Dark Gaia, and all Sonic did was distract him by plucking his eyes. If two elephants were wrestling, and a bee stings one of the elephants in the eyes to help the other elephant, that doesn't mean the bee is 9-B. Furthermore, the "eyes being more durable than the rest of the body" statement has been brought up before and rejected. Being durable doesn't mean pain sensitivity can't be ignored. Plenty of characters who are Tier 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, ect have been harmed or blinded via getting saw dust in their eyes. That doesn't mean that's super saw dust that is in said tier, and Sonic is the same case here. Furthermore, there is canonical lore that Dark Gaia's eyes are his weak points.

Also, before anyone pulls the "Game Mechanics" card regarding weak points; there are differences. Some characters like Mario have shown to physically overpower some Tier 4 characters without any sort of weak point shenanigans. And Link does go toe to toe with Ganon, who doesn't share the same weak points thing and it's who he scales from. There's a difference between the tail being the weak point and eyeballs being the weak point. Tails are more like arms and legs which have muscle to protect them; eyeballs are just super sensitive to everything.

You may ask Matt or Azathoth to comment here, but this was already discussed multiple times.
 
Same gish gallop as last time.Sonic clearly got stronger during the events of Generations as he was able to fight bosses such as Egg Emperor which previously required all of Team Sonic to defeat.Dark Gaia's eye being able to tank the Earth's core for millenia with no irritation & cause 7 yottatons of force in a weakend state cannot & does not correlate to a bee or sawdust analogy.Sonic penetrates Perfect Chaos' water body,there's literally no reason to assume Chaos 6's body is more durable. Tails are pretty sensitive as they have ALOT of nerve endings & are ultimately connected to the spine. Reject that.
 
There's no proof that Sonic got stronger in generations; it's not like Dragon Ball where characters train to grow stronger with each season; Sonic isn't the type of verse where characters train every day to become stronger than yesterday or have reactive power levels. In fact, there's contradictions to prove otherwise after Generations.

Dark Gaia's eyes never took the direct hit from a 5-A attack. Living in the Earth's core is not even close to a 5-A feat; it's like an 8-C feat. Moving the planet's crust is what was calc'd at 5-A, not the heat of the Earth's core.

Sonic doesn't penetrate Perfect Chaos' body; his body is already a liquid state and doesn't need to be penetrated. He just climbs inside and already open pool of water. Jumping in the Ocean doesn't make one Continent level. And as for Chaos 6, it's just the same thing. Sonic never harmed his liquid body; Chaos 6 simply has a weakness where his durability lowers when frozen.

The tails thing is off topic, but the tail can still yield much force. Every body part has nerves, but arms, legs, tails, ect are not even close to being as sensitive as the eyeballs. Only thing more sensitive than that would be some more internal parts.
 
1 Sonic Outright shows & states that he gets stronger in Forces & Chronicles.

2 Light Gaia was wailing on Dark Gaia's face the whole time,extra eyes would mean extra shiners, also Dark Gaia projects Tier 4 energy from it's eyes(Newton's 3rd)

3 It's quite irrational to claim Chaos 6 somehow has a different & more durable physiology than Perfect Chaos.

4 You mentioned tails first in your attempt to justify eyes being more sensitive(they aren't)
 
1. Show some source; still, there's no proof in Sonic Forces of Sonic growing that much stronger. Also, the refer to Sonic getting stronger compared to Classic Sonic, not Adventure. And assuming Sonic is tier 5 would heavily imply characters like Amy Rose would also be Tier 5, which is absurd. Not to mention Base Chaos would too.

2. His face doesn't directly mean he poked or stabbed his eyes. And Newton's 3rd law applies to punching and stuff, lasers aren't really something we always scale durability from. Superman has been hurt when his own heat vision was pushed back into him.

3. No one said Chaos 6 was more durable than Perfect Chaos; only that Sonic never physically harmed or shown to go toe to toe with either one of them outside of using a durability negation weakness to his advantage. Not to mention, are we really going to argue that Froggy has Planet level durability?

4. I was arguing weak points in general; hair or tails is completely different from eyes. And yes, eyes are more sensitive; even events with 0 force can damage eyes. Even light fingerprints burn eyes; same thing doesn't happen to tails, arms, legs, ect.
 
1 Subjective,really. It sounds absurd to you,not me.

2 Are you serious?! Dark Gaia's entire head consists of eyeballs,There's no way they didn't get wailed on & frankly We don't if it's energy beam is similar in concept to Superman's. IRL your eyes get hit more often than not in pugilism.

3 Either Chaos 6 is somehow more durable than Perfect Chaos(Makes no sense),or they have a different physiology,Gonna need proof for these & the durablity negation,Doggie.

4 Eyes are pretty tough,& tier 5/4 eyes would be astronomically tough.
 
"1. Show some source; still, there's no proof in Sonic Forces of Sonic growing that much stronger. Also, the refer to Sonic getting stronger compared to Classic Sonic, not Adventure. And assuming Sonic is tier 5 would heavily imply characters like Amy Rose would also be Tier 5, which is absurd. Not to mention Base Chaos would too."

While I'm not arguing in favor of tier 5, I just want to point out that what you said here is argument from incredulity. Saying Sonic can't be tier 5 because then Amy would be is heavily fallacious. Plus she's High 6-A and FTL anyways.
 
@AD Infinitum, mind your tone; you've gotten multiple warnings for hostile behavior already. I also already know that Amy is Tier 6 and FTL which is fine, but she sure as hell isn't on par with Perfect Chaos if Base Chaos can one shot her regularly.

That's Perfect Dark Gaia which required Super Sonic to defeat; base Dark Gaia only had two eyes. Also, again, Light Gaia isn't literally poking/stabbing the eyes, he's just punching him in the mouth or wrestling the arms. Sonic is literally poking his porcupine hairs into Dark Gaia's eyes; not Light Gaia.

A strawman once again. Chaos 6 is not more durable than Perfect Chaos, but it doesn't matter because Sonic never harmed either one of them with direct attacks. Chaos 6 has a weakness of being susceptible to ice and that's how his durability is negated. And Perfect Chaos' brain is much more fragile than the rest of his body. All Sonic did is swim inside him; again, swimming in the ocean doesn't make someone Continent level. Attacking someone's organs from the inside is how his durability was negated; kinda like how a normal human can go inside a giant robot and defeat it by removing the batteries.

But they still have super high pain sensitivity. There are plenty of characters whom we don't scale due to striking the eye being the only way to harm them; it's not game mechanics. Master Chief isn't 7-B due to stabbing The Didact in the eye. There's a movie character were normal humans fought a building sized scorpion but throwing a stick in it's eye. They aren't 8-C. For that reason, Base Sonic isn't 5-A.

I'll need to get some sleep now, so another staff member will take care of it from here.
 
You still don't make sense.If Sonic can swim inside Perfect Chaos,he can swim inside Chaos 6,why would he need an explotation when he could just backstroke into him,either He's more durable or he has a different physiology,plain & simple.
 
@Genericstickman

Yes indeed. He used the green emerald in Sonic Advance 3,but the congnitive dissonance can be cut with a knife here.
 
Mind my tone? Why? 'Cause I said !?,Pugilism, & Doggie? Wow,what utterly rage filled insults. I should change my name to AD HOMINEM 333 ovo
 
Durability has nothing to do with being able to swim inside his body; he's simply made of water is all. And it's probably because Perfect Chaos is a bigger target who's easier to sneak inside the body. And we're talking about the over use of exclamation points; and it isn't necessary the words being used that were offensive, but the way they were used. I also had no ill feelings, I was simply trying to help you by informing you. It also isn't right to accuse people of "Cognitive dissonance".

Anyway, the Sonic Advance 3 thing was also brought up, but there's no proof that he only used one Emerald. We initially saw only one Emerald in the cutscene, but it's speculative to assume he only had one. The opening scene was rushed, and there is proof in the rest of the game to show that Eggman had all 7 Emeralds. It's literally the plot that Eggman already has all 7 and Sonic is collecting each of them and needs all 7 to restore the Earth.
 
Chaos isn't made of water,he's made of liquid Chaos energy & it clearly shows through out SA1 that he has control over the shape & density of the form,you can't swim willy nilly into him,especially in his ultimate form.No, you're not leaving any room for subjectivity in the analysis,I've given my side of the argument & you keep setting up arbitrary rules without proof.The Master Emerald restores Earth,not the Chaos Emeralds,the cutscene shows ONE
 
Neutral, but Organs aren't that much weaker than the rest of the body. a 5-B character's organs shouldn't be below like low 5-B at worst.
 
Just in case anybody says they don't scale, that's false. At the very least, Modern Sonic and the Avatar do.

Sonic specifically stated he got stronger during his imprisonment which is proven when he held his own against Infinite after previously getting stomped by him.

He fought Infinite at his presumable peak in Null Space after the Sun creation scene, amd that was after the Ruby got a recharge.

He also fought the Death Egg Robot (albeit with Classic Sonic and the Avatar), which is superior to Infinite and uses the Phantom Ruby as well.
 
"But Shadow, everyone was afraid of that sun hitting them. How could they scale?"

Which is directly contradicted by Sonic and the Avatar defeating Infinite even after having the Ruby's energy recharged and then defeating the Death Egg Robot which is superior to Infinite.

For crying out loud Tails in the game is afraid of Chaos 0 when he defeated Chaos 4 in Sonic Adventure.
 
I mean I wouldn't really want to be hit by any sort of attack if I could avoid it. Wasn't he trying to blow up the planet or something? That would cause issues even if you could survive, such as low pressure, no air, no real way to get food or water, etc.
 
This was the same game that said he had been being constantly tortured then just didn't do anything with that ever again.
 
Wokistan said:
I mean I wouldn't really want to be hit by any sort of attack if I could avoid it. Wasn't he trying to blow up the planet or something? That would cause issues even if you could survive, such as low pressure, no air, no real way to get food or water, etc.
Click to expand...
According to Eggman the "world would be nothing but ashes, from which a glorious Eggman Empire will rise."

From that context, Infinite was going to use that sun to incinerate the planet's surface so Eggman could build his empire over it.

@The real cal howard Because nothing in Forces makes sense.
 
@Cal No, trust me, that sounds absolutely fallacious and I love Sonic. But it actually did happen, and for some reason, the devs decided to throw in shit that makes no sense at all.

Sonic gets beat down by Infinite effortlessly, gets out of a six-month imprisonment, proceeds to beat Infinite, states he gets stronger every second during the boss battle (which is really effing weird), and weirdly enough, it seems like he really did get stronger. Hell, I'm pretty sure Sonic even stated he got stronger as well aside from that "stronger every second" bit.
 
Clearly he copied asspull manip from Goku too
 
Sonic did struggle against his fight with Ifrit, who is who he currently scales from and where the High 6-A rating comes from. Still, heart viruses aren't any higher than 10-C but still kill those higher than that. Which Sonic literally had to go inside Perfect Chaos in order to harm him and cannot go toe to toe with him naturally. Also, I still rest the case that Sonic and the cast are clearly on par with Base Chaos, so Tier 5 is the equivalent of 2-A Bartz Klauser scaling from Neo-Exdeath, who then scales to Base Exdeath, Omega, and Shinryu. We still don't scale based small characters poking giants in the eyes or going inside to attack hearts, eyes, kidneys, ect.

If "getting stronger" came from Sonic Forces, then that makes Generations moot since that was before Forces. And Sonic was initially stomped by Infinite and went toe to toe with him in a rematch, that could just mean he was unprepared the first time but is ready now. Same with "Getting stronger" being a metaphor for building confidence; not physical strength. Also, pretty sure Infinite's Sun was calc'd at High 6-A a while back, but Matt and Weekly mentioned why that doesn't scale to Sonic.

Again, someone should preferably ask Matthew Schroeder or Azathoth to comment since they're the ones who originally debunked Tier 5 base Sonic.
 
Sonic never fought the Ifrit that caused the High 6-A feat though, he fought an incomplete Ifrit which even Tails stated was weaker than the one that can plant wipe
 
I think I remember the thread about Sonic not even being High 6-A due to not scaling from Ifrit, but I think that was rejected. If Infinite's sun could be recalc'd than that might be alright and neutral regarding the scaling. But again, Matt's a good person to ask about that.
 
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