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Why is the primal monitor questionably omnipotent?

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That too, Jim. The High 1-A would have been the verse's Tier 0 if not for:

A) The existence of a higher being (i.e the Tier 0)

Or

B) If the High 1-A being had a weakness

At least going by what i know from the tier page and from those such as Lord Kavpeny and Azathoth.
 
So that why I say hajun is not tier 0, since sadly he basically a walking weakness.... anyway I dont know about DC verse that much, so I can't answer Primal monitor feats.
 
CrossverseCrisis said:
That too, Jim. The High 1-A would have been the verse's Tier 0 if not for:
A) The existence of a higher being (i.e the Tier 0)

Or

B) If the High 1-A being had a weakness

At least going by what i know from the tier page and from those such as Lord Kavpeny and Azathoth.
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That doesn't seem right though. The existence of higher beings only makes the higher beings stronger, not the lower beings weaker.

If PM and Yog have the same feats. They should be the same rank period. The fact that Azathoth is above Yog just means he can curbstomp both of them together.
 
@Jim: Aye, indeed.

Same. I can't really answer that for PM either.

@ToAru: Well i really can't answer that muhc for PM, though. I'm just merely saying what Jim has already said for that.
 
Well, the way that DarkLK designed this system, tier High 1-A's would be tier 0's, if not for the existence of some sort of weakness, or a being that is above them. We cannot properly classify or gauge characters of this level, except in relation to other characters within the same series.

As for the Primal Monitor, it is not necessary for a setting to have a certain number of dimensions, for another character to be beyond the concepts of time and space altogether, but when I asked DarkLK, he was busy with ACF problems, and seemed uncertain whether or not we should downgrade the PM to "At least 1-A".

It is a very hard character to gauge, as it symbolises the blank page/canvas itself, that makes all imagination possible.
 
So if its hard to gauge why give him tier 0? Why not just put unknown. He doesnt have any feats comparable to Azathoth so I dont think they should be the same tier
 
Well, for the highest tiers, we usually do not tend to go by feats, but by definitions.
 
I would like to wait for more staff input however.
 
This is not a battleboard forum. It is a statistics indexing wiki.

For the highest tiers any level of feat that is possible to visually represent or properly comprehend is completely meaningless.

Destroying an infinite amount of multiverses is literally less than nothing to them.

Hence, we recurrently have to go by definitions.
 
I really don't know, but if I had to make an intelligent guess, I would say that omnipotence is a term that is questionable for itself. Why? Because of paradoxes. Can an omnipotent being create a rock he couldn't lift or create a being more powerful than himself? That is why omnipotence is a questionable term and thus the character has questionable omnipotence or at least, that's how I think. Also, shouldn't the presence be on top of DC? I could be wrong but that's my input.
 
SomeDude211 said:
I really don't know, but if I had to make an intelligent guess, I would say that omnipotence is a term that is questionable for itself. Why? Because of paradoxes. Can an omnipotent being create a rock he couldn't lift or create a being more powerful than himself? That is why omnipotence is a questionable term and thus the character has questionable omnipotence or at least, that's how I think. Also, shouldn't the presence be on top of DC? I could be wrong but that's my input.
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Yes they can.

Omnipotence contradiction
 
The Presence stated that he was created by the imagination of humanity, and was killed by the archangel Gabriel. He can only be scaled to being more powerful than Michael and Lucifer. Also, it is an off-topic subject.
 
You can read the Omnipotence page for information about why we do not use the term.
 
I think its best to change primal monitor's tier to unknown/1A for now until we get more clarification on its powers in the future. Also a bit off-topic question how the hell can humanities imagination create a 12 dimentional being.
 
I'm not fond of most of the logia's used in this revision, as it involves the comparison between two different characters and speaks more of their uncertainties on how we rate questionably omnipotent beings than anything else, but Hit made a fair point.

Though an omnipotent being doesn't need to have omniscience, they should be able to grant themselves omniscience to be regarded as truly boundless. My question is, whether or not it investigated, because it chose too, or because it was incapable of granting itself that power.
 
@BANLK Well, don't ask me. Ask the Lucifer author. In any case, it gives the Presence a clear limitation.

Regardless, I agree that it might be best to rate the PM as "Unknown. Likely at least 1-A".

@TheMightyRegulator Well, being truly boundless in stature is not automatically synonymous with omnipotence, but nevertheless, as I mentioned above, it may be best to adjust the tier.

@BTS As far as I understood, "creation" here was synonymous with the totality of a multiverse, similarly to how Michael created one earlier.
 
@ToAruFan the way I see it, Tier 0 is made for the strongest being of one work of fiction, as well as for the being that "seems" to have true omnipotence. That entails:


-that only one character per work of fiction can be attributed this tier, by definition.

-that this being is truly supreme of sorts, no one in the work of fiction can beat/surpass him or force him to do/be something. In other words, boundless.


Now, as other people said before, there is very little difference between High 1A and 0, just a matter of ranking. They pretty much all have feats of the same level, the differenciation comes when comparing them between each other in their own verse. To take your example, being the Primal Monitor and Yog-Sothoth, the only difference between them is that Yog was proven to be exceeded/surpassed by someone, namely Azatoth. The Primal Monitor on the other hand, while it was proved that it surpassed everything and anything in the DC work of fiction, it hasn't been shown/proven to be surpassed itself by anything/anyone in-verse. Hence, he hold the title of Tier 0, while Yog-Sothoth has High 1A. If Azatoth didn't exist, then Yog-Sothoth would be Tier 0. Simple as that.
 
@Blade0886 Even tier 2-C characters can seem omnipotent to regular beings.

Here is our definition of tier 0: "Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
 
Antvasima said:
@Blade0886 Even tier 2-C characters can seem omnipotent to regular beings.

Here is our definition of tier 0: "Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."
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What exactly does that mean though? It sounds like just flowery language.
 
As far as I understand (DarkLK is the expert), it usually means being at the absolute top of all levels and types of existence that are possible to conceptualise through philosophy, but can also mean being as far above tier 1-A beyond dimensional characters as they are to regular humans. We try to evaluate the characters on a case-by-case basis.
 
Antvasima said:
As far as I understand (DarkLK is the expert), it usually means being completely above all levels and types of existence that are possible to conceptualise through philosophy,
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Just stating my opinion. I don't think this particular sentence is correct where the model of tier 0 character X is surpassing every philosophy ever so it is boundless, it is more correct to say that vsbw tiering system categorize those characters that fall under the philosophy or notion of "boundlessly beyond everything else - in its series" for Tier 0.

If not, it is basically saying that "my idea and philosophy is better than your idea or any of the world philosophy ever that's why my favourite character is strongest ever".

Since afterall the model of Boundless that DarkLK put in vsbw is based on the philosophy of Kaballah https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Omnipotence

Where in a simplest explanation of words it is something like "Void/Nothing is everything ever and it is boundless". It is the same philosophy used by Greek Cosmogony or Apeiron by Anaximander where Chaos is primordial and boundless.

Lovecraft's Azathoth (Cthluhu Mythos) itself use the combination of philosophy based on Greek Cosmogony, Cosmic Indifferentism as noted by Mariconda and ST Joshi (particularly due to his hatred of religion) which is kinda same with the whole notion that "void is everything ever and it is boundless" combined with "mechanistic materialism" that means "a meaningless, mechanical, and uncaring universe that human beings, with their naturally limited faculties, could never fully understand."

Though the symbol that DarkLK out on
1082674_aa747.png


came from some Poland stuff(?), in mathematics it is called Bounded Infinity, not Boundless. Hue.

Let's continue a bit. The philosophy of 1-A character itself is taken from something that surpass Dualism (co-eternal binary opposition, yin-yang, light-dark, mind-matter) and non-Dualism (from Hindu, Buddhist and Taoist that teaches that the multiplicity of the universe is reducible to one essential reality or in a simpler words it means "not two" or "nonseparation." It is the sense that all things are interconnected and not separate, while at the same time all things retain their individuality) plus what Antvasima said above.
 
Okay then. My earlier post was probably badly worded.

As I mentioned, DarkLK is the expert. I strictly wrote down what he explained to me in the tiering system and omnipotence pages.
 
I've been thinking of The Primal Monitor as of late, and I've come to a conclusion regarding it's nature, though it may be seen as controversial.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I've been thinking of The Primal Monitor as of late, and I've come to a conclusion regarding it's nature, though it may be seen as controversial.
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Tell me?
 
http://www.ign.com/articles/2009/02/03/inside-the-mind-of-grant-morrison?page=2

It's from this old interview Grant Morrison gave to IGN.

In it he explains how he views the Overmonitor, or Monitor-Mind, or Overvoid.

Here are some quotes:

"It's the notion that the white page itself is a void, and in the context of the DC Universe, well that's God or The Source. In the white page, or the void, anything can happen, everything is possible. As I dug down closer to the very root of the activity I find myself engaged in as a career, I was thinking "what is the basis of the comic book story? What actually is it?"

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid ― as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse."

"Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting ― Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!"

Okay.

These are Grant's own words regarding the Overmonitor.

So, what can we take from this?

First, it is clear that the Overmonitor is written as something that exists both within and outside the 4th Wall, as he views it as th "Page itself", an infinite white canvas of creation, from which anything can be formed.

He also views it as God, in a way, and he ties it to The Source itself, treating both as the same being. Now, I am not suggesting that we treat it as such, as the text itself never suggests they are one in the same, but it makes you think. It's worth noting, however, that certain comics have suggested that God and The Source are the same thing (See this ), and the "Over-Monitor" actually first appeared in Lucifer (The resemblence is clear)

It also seems to not be Omniscient, something that was pointed above.

Finally, and most controversially... It doesn't seem to be the Supreme Being of the DC Multiverse.

I mean, the line "it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'." all but states it.

So what to do? Grant Morrison himself stated that "someone" drew the DC Multiverse with the Overmonitor, who, as mentioned before, is meant to be both a fictional character and a 4th wall breaking metafictional concept (Grant Morrison's stories break the 4th wall, often to do serious explorations on the difference between reality and fiction, all the time). But... What can be higher in the scale than the Overmonitor? What can exist beyond the canvas of creation, the "blank page" in which all DC Comics are made.

Well, The Writer, of course.

Now, hear me out, I know this seems absurd, saying that the Self-Inserted Grant Morrison is the Supreme Being of DC is kinda ridiculous at first, I know.

But... Grant himself stated that "someone" drew on the Overmonitor, and he created the character and has been the only author to use it. Also, Grant Morrison wasn't killed in Suicide Squad, as you can see here he wrote his own death. He was merely playing with all the characters. It's also worth noting that he is never called Grant Morrison in the story proper, but only "The Writer".

So, what do you guys think? Did "The Writer" use The Overmonitor to draw DC Comics, and is thus the true Tier 0 of the verse, or am I just crazy?
 
It could also be that every author is simply a facet of the one that drew this multiverse on the canvas. Sorta like in the Dark Tower how every author is Gan's prophet or however it was.
 
Also, this isn't exclusive to DC either. In Marvel, both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee have shown up as "God" in stories.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Also, this isn't exclusive to DC either. In Marvel, both Jack Kirby and Stan Lee have shown up as "God" in stories.
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Didn't TOAA once show up as Kirby? And where did Stan appear again?
 
My apologies, but we cannot rate real human beings as tier 0 in conjunction with a story setting. Please read the Reality - Fiction Interaction page for our policy regarding this.
 
Also, the blank page was not drawn by anybody. It is simply the canvas upon which something is drawn.
 
We still cannot go into the area of real life humanity being deemed a race of tier 0's lording over words and pictures. It would render our entire tiering system meaningless. The distinction between reality and fiction must be maintained.
 
Antvasima said:
We still cannot go into the area of real life humanity being deemed a race of tiet 0's lording over words and pictures. It would render our entire tiering system meaningless. The distinction between reality and fiction must be maintained.
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You do have a point but the point of contention remains that the Primal Monitor is restricted in some way, and thereby not tier 0, considering that the existence of the Marvel multiverse terrified him.
 
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