Why is the primal monitor questionably omnipotent?

[Huesito88]

Why is he questionably omnipotent? Why is he omniscient I thought he didn't know what the dc universe was at first.

 

[Jucaslucas]

Well, he's the supreme being of DC, above everything and everyone.

The DC reality was so small and pathetic to him, that he though it was a bacteria in his body. But, I guess, you're right about that.

 

[Huesito88]

So why is he omniscient? He didn't know he should have know even if he thought it was something else

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is the background that makes all concepts and ideas of any level possible, similarly to Yog-Sothoth, so that is why we rate it as questionably omnipotent.

However, you may have a point about that we should remove omniscience as an ability. Can you find a reference image for its mental limitation?

 

[Huesito88]

No but he did send monitors to investigate this "flaw"

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Well, alright then. I will remove the omniscience ability.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

No, It investigated the flaw itself during a time when monitor existed only.

Before that the multiverse didn't even exist.

 

[Huesito88]

But why would primal monitor need to investigate the flaw if he is omniscient he wouldn't need to investigate. Enless the primal monitor is like the presence in which it sometimes doesn't use it omniscients since it likes to see how it plays out without knowing

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that an omniscient character still has to process the information that it receives. It simply receives all information at once.

 

[Huesito88]

the primal monitor didn't even know who created this flaw. It should referrer to it as a universe but he gives it the nickname as a flaw.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have adjusted the profile.

 

[Verivici]

Isn't being unable to immediately learn something on a whim and being forced to investigate a flaw, which would put the Primal Monitor at High Hyperverse level+ instead of tier 0?

 

[Antvasima]

What do you mean? Intelligence and power are not necessarily synonymous.

 

[Verivici]

I know, but logically a Tier 0 character can only be Tier 0 if they are shown to be truly boundless and without limit. A truly boundless being wouldn't have to take any sort of special measure to get what they want, as they could effortlessely get it just by wanting to.

Considering that the Primal Monitor was forced to investigate rather than just automatically know simply by wanting to, it seems kinda strange, if you get what I mean. Not that this would be a downgrade in any productive or logical sense, but still.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we gauge tier 0 by their boundless state of being, not by their intelligence.

 

[Verivici]

I know

But if they have to exert some sort of special means to do something and would be incapable of doing it normally

They aren't tier 0

 

[Antvasima]

It simply seemed to create something to delegate the problem. It was a plot convenience to set up the story with the Monitors. Thst is all.

 

[ToAruFan]

Why exactly is the Primal Monitor tier 0? He has absolutely zero feats throughout the entire story. It was never stated that he was omnipotent, and I thought this wiki didn't even use omnipotence as a feat.

 

[Antvasima]

I also vaguely remember that I cleared it with DarkLK before adding tier 0 for it, but I will ask to make sure,

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why exactly is the Primal Monitor tier 0? He has absolutely zero feats throughout the entire story. It was never stated that he was omnipotent, and I thought this wiki didn't even use omnipotence as a feat.

Neither does like, all the tier 0s on this site. Save for maybe Azathoth and TOAA.

 

[ToAruFan]

Neither does like, all the tier 0s on this site. Save for maybe Azathoth and TOAA.

Yeah but all the other tier 0s are above 1As in their verses but DC doesnt have any 1As.

 

[ToAruFan]

I also vaguely remember that I cleared it with DarkLK before adding tier 0 for it, but I will ask to make sure,

Isnt yog sothoth only 1A though? Why is PM above him?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yog is only 1A because Azzy is there. Same with Featherine and the Creator. They'd both be tieroes if it weren't for beings explicitly above them.

 

[ToAruFan]

So the only reason they arent tier 0s is because someone is stronger than them? So character a has tier 0 feats, but all of a sudden another character comes and beats Character A. Doesnt that just make Character B stronger rather than Character A weaker? Since Yog has the same feats as PM, they are equal but Azzy should be above them both no?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

It doesn and doesn't work like that. If a character is 0, and a new character comes in to wreck the first, that new character is 0 and the old is 1-A. Now if a few new new characters are equal to that new one, then they are all high 1-A. And if there is a being above them all, then he's the new tier 0.

So basically, if PM has the same feats as Yog, he could theoretically already be equal to Azzy, or he could be weaker than Nya, because there's no difference in 1-A and greater unless they are in the same verse

 

[ToAruFan]

Then tier 0 sounds like an arbitrary cap in power.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cap doesn't really define it. It just means boundless (questionably). If a character surpasses it, then apparently it's not boundless.

 

[ToAruFan]

Thats NLF then

 

[Jucaslucas]

Well, since it's impossible to prove omnipotence by feats, I think that's the best we can do.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Thats NLF then

Omnipotents are literally no limits. That's why they're omnipotent.

 

[ToAruFan]

Then omnipotence is NLF by VS debate standards. GER has no limits either but we still limit him.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Problem is, GER has limits, not even counting HA DIO, he can only show universal levels. Tier 0s and 1As show beyond infinite universal levels. There's litearally now way to limit them.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

GER has no limits

No, since HA dio and novel Kars is above GER.

Also omnipotent or not, Tier 0 is not affected by any form of NLF, and I pretty sure the Tiering system already explain it.

 

[ToAruFan]

How can tier 0's not be affected by NLFs? All fictional characters can be affected by NLFs. No fictional characters can be truly limitless. All of them are limited to their settings. Primal Monitor can't hop out of comic books and start causing worldwide devastation. He has limits. His limits are what he has shown on panel.

In a fight between fictional characters, you examine the feats they have shown and compare them to eachother. If Primal Monitor has feats on par with Yog-Sothoth, then they should both be the same rank.

The fact that Azathoth is stronger than Yog just means Lovecraft as a whole is stronger than DC, not that Yog Sothoth is weaker.

If tier 0 means having no limits, then that's a textbook example of a No Limits Fallacy. In a fictional debate, all that matters is feats.

God from Bastard!! is also omnipotent and limitless. Does that mean he can beat Elder God Demonbane?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

No, that is why we have a rule to not put Tier 1-A and above in VSmatches, also please read the Tiering system, because even if you are infinity that dosent mean you are tier 0.

 

[ToAruFan]

I've read the tiering system. It just doesn't make sense to rank Primal Monitor above Yog-Sothoth when both of them have the same feats.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Tier high 1-A and 0 is basically the same, and in this case if Azathoth not exist then yog will be Tier 0.

 

[ToAruFan]

So why have tier 0 at all if it's the same as High 1-A?

 

[Primaris_Brian]

High 1-A wil be Tier 0 if there are no Tier 0 in their verse(except hajun since he has massive weakness)

 

[ToAruFan]

So Tier 0's are arbitrarily assigned?

And anyways does PM even have the feats to match Yog?

Yog is the embodiment of an infinite dimensional multiverse and also embodies the void that makes the multiverse look like an atom.

What does PM have to match that?

DC doesn't even have infinite dimensions in the first place.