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Why exactly is Gan not Tier 0?

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InsomniousNights

InsomniousNights

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Really sorry if this is an obvious question or if it's been asked before, but Gan being 1-A instead of 0 doesn't make much sense to me. He seems to have qualities of numerous other tier 0's on the site, such as being the creator of his series' universe, as well as omniscience and omnipresence due to everything in the universe being an extension of himself (Much like Azathoth and The-One-Above-All). If the Crimson King, an outerversal character in the same universe, is likewise just another aspect of Gan, wouldn't this make Gan superior to the Crimson King to the point of being tier 0?
 
unless the difference between gan and the king is like the difference between the crimson king and monarch of pointland then no.
 
Unfortunately, no. The gap between two 1-As, let alone High 1-A or 0, is literally so massive that I can't quantify it.
 
Until Gan transcends the Crimson King like how a 1-A character transcends an 11-C, high 1-A or Tier 0 Gan doesnt even deserve for me to even debate on how wrong it is.
 
The Dark Tower itself is a High 1-B construct. Gan completely transcends it, but we have no proof of him being any higher than 1-A because of it.
 
Furthermore, if Gan were Tier 0, the Crimson King wouldn't even be a problem to him. Forget their whole 'eternal power struggle which has lasted since the dawn of creation' dynamic; the latter would have been wiped out before he could even realize that he had arisen from the Prim in the first place.
 
It's also implied that there might be Todash/Prim entities (maybe there are a couple who are named. Crimson Queen anyone?) which are even powerful than, and vastly predate, CK or Gan, so it would honestly be pretty inaccurate to rate them as such.
 
To be fair, the Crimson Queen doesn't actually predate the true Crimson King. She's simply the biological mother of Los, the King's avatar. Most of the supposed entities of the Prim/Todash Darkness are also heavily implied to have been weaker than Gan to a considerable degree, seeing as he was the one who drove them back into Todash to begin with. (Though there is some implication within Sheemie's one-shot comic that the Beam Guardians aren't powerful enough to stop them should they be released upon creation, so that might be a thing at least)

That said, given the fact that the Prim existed prior to the birth of both Gan and the Crimson King, there is still the possibility that there's something even bigger and stronger than them out there in the space above reality. Sadly for all of us, the DT cosmology is never explored that deeply at any point.
 
If something is older than Gan, wouldn't that instantly knock him out of being Tier 0? You can't be completely boundless if something else brought you into the world.
 
Well that in and of itself is a weakness and makes him not completely boundless. Absolute max after that is High 1-A.
 
Mia waved a hand impatiently, as if to say don't waste my time. "Six, aye. And when the Beams were created out of that greater Discordia, the soup of creation some (including the Manni) call the Over and some call the Prim, what made them?"

"I don't know," Susannah said. "Was it God, do you think?"

"Perhaps there is a God, but the Beams rose from the Prim on the airs of magic, Susannah, the true magic which passed long ago. Was it God that made magic, or was it magic that made God? I know not. It's a question for philosophers, and mothering's my job. But once upon a time all was Discordia and from it, strong and all crossing at a single unifying point, came the six Beams. - Song of Susannah
 
Forgot about Bessa, as she's not mentioned that much in the first 7 books, but yes, she would be equal to Gan, since she embodies the Rose.

And I always thought Gan *was* above baseline 1-A, not to mention what qualifies baseline 1-A anyway? Gan spun the infinite multi-multiverse from his navel like it was nothing from merely existing. Contrast that to the Downstreamers, who took millions of years of trial and error before they were able to do such a thing. If anything, he should be comparable to DB Nya.
 
Bessa is less an aspect of him and is more a separate being, though.

Bessa is the wife of Ga and as his wife she is seen as the only deity with enough power to influence a person's life. Thus, she became the patroness of gamblers. Additionally she is the patroness of riddling contests, since she is said to have invented the game to entertain her husband.

She is the goddess of "khef", life force; her symbol being the rose.

She has diverse worshippers, from people about to take court cases, to those about to undergo surgery and those who are about to take a difficult journey. They all make offerings to her before strarting their trials. If they have a successful outcome they make further offerings to her to insure her future kindness. Doctors and nurses are protected by her, with many healers wearing the rose for luck and strength.

She should presumably have a profile made for her, though, as well.
 
The Dark Tower in general is missing a number of good characters on our wiki. Sheemie is missing a profile despite having some of the best (albeit mostly untrained) psionics in the verse, Ty from Black House is missing despite being able to blow up a miles-wide construct with just his mind, nobody from The Shining or Doctor Sleep is present, Charlie McGee barely even has a mention despite having more actual feats than Carrie ever did, etc etc.

EDIT: Christine has a profile for her movie incarnatio, but her novel incarnation is missing. I don't even know what to say about that...
 
The crimson Kings profile currently just brings up the fact he's an aspect of Gan for him being 1-A but ignores the fact he can destroy the tower

"You asked how many worlds," Parkus begins. "The answer, in the High Speech, is da fan: worlds beyond telling." With one of the blackened sticks he draws a figure eight on its side, which Jack recognizes as the Greek symbol for infinity.

"There is a Tower that binds them in place. Think of it as an axle upon which many wheels spin, if you like. And there is an entity that would bring this Tower down. Ram Abbalah."

At these words, the flames of the fire seem to momentarily darken and turn red. Jack wishes he could believe that this is only a trick of his overstrained mind, but cannot. "The Crimson King," he says.

"Yes. His physical being is pent in a cell at the top of the Tower, but he has another manifestation, every bit as real, and this lives in Can-tah Abbalah - the Court of the Crimson King."

"Two places at once." Given his journeying between the world of America and the world of the Territories, Jack has little trouble swallowing this concept.

"Yes."

"If he - or it - destroys the Tower, won't that defeat his purpose? Won't he destroy his physical being in the process?"

"Just the opposite: he'll set it free to wander what will then be chaos . . . din-tah . . . the furnace. Some parts of Mid-World have fallen into that furnace already." - Black House
 
Technically, Dis being 1-A makes his ability to destroy the Tower a known-unknown. (The Tower itself is High 1-B at best)

And before anyone tries to imply it, Los can't destroy the Tower on his own. He needed several Breakers in order to do that, and the series even ends up with him trapped on a balcony of the Tower with his powers having been stripped from him.
 
So should we downgrade the Crimson King to High 1-B?
 
Okay. Perhaps this should be better explained in his page?
 
His true form, at the very least, was born from/resides on the same plane of existence as Gan. The only reason he's not a much larger threat within the story as a whole is because Gan locked him out of creation and is actively opposing him. (the latter is more powerful than the former, obviously)

There are a couple of inaccuracies within that respect thread ('Legion' and Andre Linoge are separate entities from Randall Flagg, for example), but that much is the truth. His tier should be fine.
 
Wouldn't the avatar be potentially High 1-B, since it could encompass the Tower once the Beams were destroyed? (High 1-B, like 1-A, can be transcended beyond-infinitely)

Also, here's another thing: where is it ever referenced that the Prim doesn't have dimensions? As far as I remember, transcending infinite dimensions still makes you High 1-B as long as you're not beyond dimensions on a concept level. Or is it more of an assumption based on the fact that it's a primordial realm?
 
I don't know about that.

On one hand, Los was naturally resistant to existence erasure, and Patrick Danville actually had to be empowered by the Rose in order to erase him from existence.

On the other hand, it's implied that Roland's guns could have shot him down prior to him becoming undead. The guns themselves are implied to be able to kill immortals (similar to the Excalibur of legend, which is supposedly melted down to forge them), but IIRC the extent of this immortal-killing ability is left ridiculously vague, and said guns weren't strong enough to kill Shardik without shooting a weak point.
 
That would be a very good argument to be able to put King's avatar at High 1-B (since he received reality warping from a vastly higher source)

And like you said, that's nebulous at best, since the veracity of that statement is never tested, and it could have just been a layer to the legend (just like how the Dark Tower isn't anything like what Roland expected, etc)

I still don't understand how they're 1-A based on anything but assumption, however. The realm is never stated to be dimensionless, merely primordial, and transcending infinite dimensions doesn't instantly make you 1-A.

(This is coming from a fan, btw. Just offering a different viewpoint, there's no spite involved)
 
The problem comes from the fact that Los himself was so scared of said legend that he took the steps to turn himself undead in the first place. Maybe I'm missing something here, but it seems odd that someone on that level would be genuinely afraid of a dinky old legend with no real evidence to back it up.

Although, looking back, it's made abundantly clear that he'd gone off the deep end by the end of the series...
 
Just because he was scared of the legend doesn't mean it would have definitely affected him, I think that it's safer to say that he wanted to hedge his bets and make sure nothing could interfere with his plan, since as we outlined, there's nothing pointing toward him being in danger from such a thing, and it took a far-higher force to even affect him in the slightest, though it didn't even kill him, which IS something which can be quantified.
 
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