Why exactly is Gan not Tier 0?

[Aeyu]

I still would like a reasoning for why they're 1-A's in the first place

But yes, if all these things are taken into account, and the profiles updated, they would no longer be "baseline," 1-A.

Since if they ARE 1-A, they're likely a fairly high degree of it.

And the Downstreamers always were. In fact, I don't understand why they're even 1-A in the first place, since being beyond space and time themselves doesn't matter unless you transcend dimensions on a conceptual level, as outlined on the Tiering System page.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

That's kinda off topic, so make another thread for that.

But yeah Gan is a strong 1-A

 

[Aeyu]

It was merely a response to your question.

But I might, come to think of it.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Back on topic, the crimson kings profile is missing like 90% of his abilities.

 

[ZacharyGrossman273]

Like plot manipulation

"I'll be a vampire, a slave to him. His scribe, maybe. His pet writer."

"Whose?"

"The Lord of the Spiders. The Crimson King. Tower-pent." - Song of Susannah

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

the crimson kings profile is missing like 90% of his abilities.

Pretty much this. The 'etc' should also have been removed from his Powers and Abilities section a long time ago, since we don't keep that sort of thing on our pages.

I still would like a reasoning for why they're 1-A's in the first place.

Here's the thread where the tiering was discussed a while back. Whatever you need to know should be in there.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with removing etc in all instances, since assumption is not equal to actual feats and implication.

That's all based off assumption though. The argument for them being 1-A is essentially the same as believing in Marvel's definition of an Omniverse imo, in that other fiction, even when the author "confirms," that it exists within the story, doesn't really unless it's shown to in the show, and only a few mentionings were made. There is really no reason to assume that the Prim doesn't have any dimensions; it's never stated NOT to have any, and Gan spinning an infinite-dimensional "mega"verse from his navel doesn't mean that the realm that he came from was Outerversal by any means. I truly feel like to qualify for 1-A there should be some sort of direct statement that shows that the realm that they come from transcends all possible concepts or realities, or that it literally is beyond the point where dimensions exist. There is no such demonstration from Gan, CK or Bessa about this and basing their tier off an author's comment about possibilities does not follow when the story makes no mention of anything even like this. I refer to my above statement which basically outlines why transcending an infinite dimensional realm even to the point where space and time are no longer feasibly existent doesn't mean one is conceptually superior to dimensional concepts or constants, which has been outlined more recently than when the upgrades were made.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The thing about the Tower containing all other fictions was refused within the thread. They probably would've been rated far above that if it hadn't been.

The rest of your argument may or may not be correct. I don't really deal in any tiers that extend beyond Tier 2 though, so I can't help you there.

 

[Aeyu]

I'm glad for that, as it could lead to all sorts of confusion.

And yeah, most people don't want to typically, and I don't blame you, but it's just a thing I've noticed.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

If Los ends up becoming High 1-B from all of this, he's probably going to be the only Tier 1 I put much effort into debating on the behalf of. (I already bring up evidence for Gan in threads, but that's more out of obligation due to being one of the few people who actually knows anything about him)

Worst case scenario I can see here; Gan and Dis go from being a couple of low-to-mid-level 1-As to being two of the strongest High 1-Bs we have.

 

[Aeyu]

I think that he should be a High 1-B. It took the power of Bessa, a being who is roughly Gan's equal, to erase him, and even then, it only destroyed most of his physical body, but not the entire thing. (If I remember correctly, all that was left on the balcony when Patrick erased him was an eye [LoTR shoutout, of course])

I don't see that as really being a worst-case scenario, but that's just me. I like to try and define where these boundaries are, instead of making a guesstimation. Honestly (and this is just my take) something being beyond dimensionality is already absurd, since it couldn't logically have a form at all.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

It occurs to me that, should Los be upped to High 1-B, it would be best to leave a note on how the 'immortal-killing' aspect of Roland's guns is simply a legend with no concrete evidence backing it up, and that the in-universe theory of the guns being able to kill Los was also speculative and never proven.

Should probably leave an identical note on Roland's page as well.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Aeyu that it seems extremely uncertain to place Gan, Crimson King, and the Downstreamers at 1-A, rather than High 1-B.

It is probably best to ask Azathoth for input here.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Gan, Dis, and the Downstreamers being High 1-B is fine with me, honestly. I don't really have an opinion on Los, right now.

 

[TheSandman31]

Aren't the Downstreamers already High 1-B just with possibly 1-A? or is the possibly 1-A going to be removed?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Okay. Thank you. Are you or Aeyu willing to handle the downgrades?

 

[Antvasima]

@TheSandman31

I think that the possibly 1-A rating will be removed.

 

[Aeyu]

I am willing to handle the downgrades, and give an explanation or note if it is needed; maybe the pages can be looked over afterward to make sure I don't miss anything?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

While we're doing that, we should also add some of the powers that are missing from the Crimson King's page, such as his Plot Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and (in the case of Los) resistance to Existence Erasure.

Also Mind Manipulation, as it was a major plot point that Los mind-controlled his entire court of servants into killing themselves in front of him. Given the nature of Los, Dis should be capable of the same.

 

[Aeyu]

Are there any other ones that we're missing?

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that both of you could attempt to fix the pages while they are unlocked then.

Tell me here when you are done.

 

[Aeyu]

Sounds good, thank you.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Death Manipulation, maybe. Feemalo/Fimalo/Fumalo stated that he could have killed all of his servants himself simply by wishing it, and he supposedly causes infants to die in their cribs every time he speaks. (The latter may or may not be hyperbolic, but I wouldn't put it past Stephen King to have meant otherwise)

Chaos Manipulation, due to his force of Random which basically fits the description of said power to a tee. It's stated to cause disasters and is more or less responsible for numerous evils, tragedies, etc. within the multiverse.

Higher-Dimensional Manipulation for obvious reasons. Also higher-dimensional travel for Los, as he was shown to be capable of ascending to different levels of the Tower on his own.

And BFR for Dis, as one of his aspects, 'Black 13', is a sentient orb which can hurl people out of the universe.

I'm running these by everyone here before adding them, just in case there are any objections.

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I've finished adding the missing powers, and have also removed Precognition as it was never shown to be something any version of the King was capable of.

Should we divide the powers up between each key as well? Some of these are specific to each one. (Los, for example, doesn't have BFR unless he somehow gets a hold of Black 13, nor does he himself have Fate Manip, Chaos Manip or Plot Manip. Dis would clearly have more potent versions of whatever powers Los does have, also.)

EDIT: I added to the justifications of his High 1-B level, also.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm actually positive that the Prim is stated to be spaceless and timeless.

 

[Aeyu]

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but is there any sources to that so that we can give a better reasoning as to their tiers?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

In either case, I've made a note to use for both Roland and the King's profiles:

"Note: While it is implied that Roland Deschain's guns might have been able to kill the Crimson King's avatar prior to him becoming undead, this theory was never proven and its basis lies in the in-universe legend that the guns are capable of killing immortals. (Similarly to Excalibur, the sword which was melted down in order to forge them) The legend itself also holds no context inside or outside of the story, and the supposed immortal-killing aspect of Roland's guns has never been shown at any point within the series.

Furthermore, Patrick Danville failed to completely erase the Crimson King's avatar from reality even after he was empowered by the Rose, a source of power comparable the Dark Tower itself. This fact alone would mean that Roland's guns would need to be capable of doing damage on a higher-dimensional level in order to kill the Crimson King's avatar on their own, a feat which is far beyond what the guns have ever shown to be capable of."

Do I have the go-ahead to add this to their pages?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'm not trying to say you're wrong, but is there any sources to that so that we can give a better reasoning as to their tiers?

I mean, the Prim is the primordial soup of chaos from which everything came to be.

And the Dark Tower didn't even have spatial or temporal dimensions until Gan created the six beams who determine them.

So 1-A.

 

[Aeyu]

But it's never stated that that primordial reality was beyond all concepts or dimensions, which is (at least how I understand it) why they were considered to be downgraded in the first place.

And the Dark Tower is only his physical body, Gan spun it from his navel in the beginning of the multiverse as to give order to a chaotic reality. Simply creating an infinite-dimensional reality doesn't necessarily mean one is beyond dimensions as a concept, does it?

 

[Antvasima]

@MrKingOfNegativity

I suppose so.

@Matthew

So, are you willing to insert better justifications for the tiers?

 

[Aeyu]

Also, I have finished the profile for the Downstreamers, given complex reasoning for the new tiering, and the profile should be locked.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But it's never stated that that primordial reality was beyond all concepts or dimensions, which is (at least how I understand it) why they were considered to be downgraded in the first place.
And the Dark Tower is only his physical body, Gan spun it from his navel in the beginning of the multiverse as to give order to a chaotic reality. Simply creating an infinite-dimensional reality doesn't necessarily mean one is beyond dimensions as a concept, does it?

Said infinite-dimensional reality only has infinite spatial and temporal dimensions because he willed it as such in the first place. It had none originally.

 

[Aeyu]

Where is this stated though?

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Where is this stated though?

The Dark Tower: The Gunslinger Bor (the very first volume/installment of the comics)

Stephen King himself supposedly sent the comic writers this info via emails (or so I heard), so it should be legitimate.

EDIT: Although, the statement in that comic was that Gan 'set six magnetic Beams to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them'. Whether or not that qualifies as 'creating the concept of dimensions' is up for interpretation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White"

 

[Aeyu]

I see where you're coming from, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he was dimensionless before that, just that he created the dimensions in the Beams (If I recall, High 1-B's can be infinitely above other High 1-B's dimensionally, and is creating dimensions even quantifiable?)

If you must add a 1-A rating, wouldn't a Possibly 1-A be better than a baseline? I don't recall the Prim ever explicitly stated to be beyond dimensions.

 

[LuckyCharmingStar]

Making him 1-A seems wrong because LT or Destiny or even some other dc characters are stated to transcend high 1-B realities

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Aeyu

How about: At least High 1-B, possibly 1-A?

 

[Aeyu]

That sounds preferrable, in all honesty. Do you wanna add it or should I?