Why Dimensional Tiering is used...

[ATARi.HMB]

Hello everyone, as you may know I may not agree with the powerscaling for all boards, but that does not mean I don't L.O.V.E. the utilization of the tiering system.
Now I have a question....
Upon some clarification and unintentional debate, I was being told the VBW's tiering system is flawed. Now I can understand every series has a
case by case scaling. But, discussion was regarding spatial dimensions. Mainly anisotropic one's. I was explaining to someone the purpose of dimensional tiering
is a metric utilized to articulate a character's particular power or scale, when a limit has been reached or can be surpassed.
Aka, transcending beyond into a higher hierarchy of power.
I know the VBW does a great job expressing that
a. This is on a UNIVERSAL SCALE, USUALLY INFINITE
b. This is EQUATED to real coordinate spaced.

I was linked to these 2 articles as an attempt to debunk the system used. [1] [2]
The TLDR, is that I said bijection cannot be correlated to the system used via VBW; depending on the FICTION. That the axiom (self evident presupposition)
of
1D = x
2D = x,y
3D = x,y,z
in the aspect of "Powersets" does indeed express larger levels of infinity as expressed by the two images below;

QUESTION: Are there any individuals, who're aware of the system used, who can given clarity on this misconception.

Q1: "Energy can vibrate into higher dimensions; the same level of infinite energy destroying a 2D infinity, is the same energy needed to destroy a 3D infinity"
Q2: "Marvel is flawed upon its dimensional presupposition, since ordinal and cardinals are still infinite numbers"

I am in defense of the VBW system, but is there a way to explain it or clarify these misconceptions upon it's usefulness?
I mean the point is to avoid conflict Verse per Verse...otherwise Quantum Superman may just see most of fiction 3D,4D, and 5D beings as a comic book... or interpreted as 1-A O_O

(Also, here's one more Link for the basis of the argument: here)

 

[Planck69]

We haven't used Dimensional Tiering since 2019 though....

Unless they have a problem with the current tiering system?

 

[ATARi.HMB]

We haven't used Dimensional Tiering since 2019 though....

Unless they have a problem with the current tiering system?

Thanks! Yeah, I believe it may have been the current.
The argument was that R^5 and R^6 are congruently equal in value.

Though I argued
1 Dimensional Realm can have: {x}
2 Dimensional Realm can have : {x} {y} {x,y}
3 Dimensional Realm can have: {x} {y} {z} {x,y} {x,z} {y,z} {x,y,z}

hence why in the aspect of a universal scale a 3D universe should be more impressive than destroying a 2D universe...in theory

Is this correct? or is there more to it?

 

[Planck69]

I'm far from a math wizard so I can't properly explain it but something being 3-D no longer means it's automatically superior to a 2-D object. Using dimensions as a basis for tiering was long since done away with.

But you're better of asking Ultima Reality or DontTalkDT about the specifics.

 

[ATARi.HMB]

I'm far from a math wizard so I can't properly explain it but something being 3-D no longer means it's automatically superior to a 2-D object. Using dimensions as a basis for tiering was long since done away with.

But you're better of asking Ultima Reality or DontTalkDT about the specifics.

Yeah, I can get that depending on what the subject matter is.
I was merely speaking of orders of infinity.
Basically infinite length vs an object with infinite length and width.
Destroying the the object with only length
should not equate to the same level of energy vs an object with length & width.
Since the destruction being propagated goes through 2 different directions.

Hope what I'm saying makes sense.

 

[Planck69]

I mean, that's definitely true. An infinite plane and an infinite expanse will obviously have an uncountably infinite difference between them as far as power needed to destroy either goes.

 

[ATARi.HMB]

I mean, that's definitely true. An infinite plane and an infinite expanse will obviously have an uncountably infinite difference between them as far as power needed to destroy either goes.

I thought so, but there was an argument saying that the energy required is equal; since it's infinite. Since energy vibrates on different spatial levels.
I told the individual this 100% depends on the fiction or work that is being discussed.
So I opened this thread as I'm trying to better understand the use of "real coordinates space" the tiering system uses.

They say "In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)"

but it felt like an appeal to reality to limit the tiering system based upon it's statements.

I'm wondering if someone can explain why it's benefitable in a different way, I've already done my part and I want to hear the wisdom/perspective of others to ensure I'm not going off the deep end.

 

[Planck69]

That "energy vibrates on different spatial" level just sounds like nonsense pseudoscience from a guy who's read too much Marvel.

As for the mathematical aspects, while I understand what would and wouldn't qualify for those tiers, I can't really grasp the specifics of the math itself. Again, you're better off waiting for an expert on the system to respond.

 

[Darksmash]

While I am not an expert on this, I believe the topic of mass/energy affecting higher dimensions is controversial as IIRC in some theories Black Hole singularities and ringularities despite being 0D and 1D respectively still have a significant effect on our 4D space time because of possessing mass.

I could be wrong here though.

 

[QuasiYuri]

While I am not an expert on this, I believe the topic of mass/energy affecting higher dimensions is controversial as IIRC in some theories Black Hole singularities and ringularities despite being 0D and 1D respectively still have a significant effect on our 4D space time because of possessing mass.

I could be wrong here though.

Black holes are more lacking dimensions because of being sheer gravity, tho iirc recent researches imply that you could have very small star inside a Black Hole (like the result of a collapsing pulsar).

 

[ATARi.HMB]

While I am not an expert on this, I believe the topic of mass/energy affecting higher dimensions is controversial as IIRC in some theories Black Hole singularities and ringularities despite being 0D and 1D respectively still have a significant effect on our 4D space time because of possessing mass.

I could be wrong here though.

Yeah, I believe it would be a case by case scenario since I re-read the main tiering list page. It specified "universal scale" quite a view times. Referring to infinite hierarchies. It also looks like they removed numeric values and only stated their equation.
For example, Yui-kui from Kado the Right answer would be capable of effecting 37 dimensions; but on a universal scale of infinity, which would apply to his/it's rank.
But I suppose series like Crash Bandicoot's 9th dimension is too arbitrary to issue a rank up right? Sorry if this seems off topic.

 

[Planck69]

Things like "can affect 420 dimensions" no longer give any tiering without further context to the extent of those dimensions.

 

[Bernkastelll]

''Dimensions'' alone is too vague, a lot of times it is only like a parallel universe or a parallel space, unless the dimension is proved to be a ''Higher Dimension'' that see the lowers as fiction or some similar thing, it won't give any tier

 

[Planck69]

The dimensional space just needs to have all of its dimensional axes be infinite, though them being universal in length also counts.

 

[ATARi.HMB]

The dimensional space just needs to have all of its dimensional axes be infinite, though them being universal in length also counts.

Yup, I agree.

''Dimensions'' alone is too vague, a lot of times it is only like a parallel universe or a parallel space, unless the dimension is proved to be a ''Higher Dimension'' that see the lowers as fiction or some similar thing, it won't give any tier

I agree with this also.

I just had some disagreements with those who believe arbitrary dimensional numbers don't prove Infinite 3D Space > Infinite 2D, but as time went on the argument was superfluous and I shouldn't have let my insecurity get to me, some users are just stubborn against the system.

I believe the verdict is; tiering itself should be used as a standard for this system to help us dictate how strong other characters can become once they exceed a certain threshold.

Thank you guys!

 

[Amakasu]

I'm not a Mathematics god, but isn't infinte 3D mass or energy nonexistent on a 4D scale?

 

[Planck69]

No, not necessarily. In fact, 2-D objects can have mass from what I remember.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I'm not a Mathematics god, but isn't infinte 3D mass or energy nonexistent on a 4D scale?

Not in every theory.

 

[Amakasu]

No, not necessarily. In fact, 2-D objects can have mass from what I remember.

Wait, 2d has mass? I'm learning something new everyday.

 

[Amakasu]

I found a cool thing. According to quantam Superman, the difference between Dimensions is very huge. I guess it's only exclusive to dc

 

[QuasiYuri]

Some verses have it as such, some not.

 

[ATARi.HMB]

Some verses have it as such, some not.

100% True. For Instance, take Dragon Ball, though the afterlife transcends the infinite lower temporal world per Daizenshuu 4 separated by space-time. We may not compare it to the way dimensions transcend in DC comics.
The magnitude of DC's descriptions are proven to be more complex in their examples. But in Umineko Infinite 2D, does not even exist to a 3D being at all!

I found a cool thing. According to quantam Superman, the difference between Dimensions is very huge. I guess it's only exclusive to dc

Yup, depends. But I still love that scan. When you factor in the DC transinfinite metaverse, Quantum Superman may be even higher than where he is now; heck even Mr. Myx. But yeah this topic has always been fun for me, because despite the different theories, we can find ways to explain their power magnitude.

 

[Planck69]

I will also point out how a statement like "transcends the universe/multiverse" will not be considered valid if actual showings contradict it, such as with Dragon Ball above.

Yeah, that scan of DC Comics is about as blatant as you can get with it though.

 

[Amakasu]

100% True. For Instance, take Dragon Ball, though the afterlife transcends the infinite lower temporal world per Daizenshuu 4 separated by space-time. We may not compare it to the way dimensions transcend in DC comics.

That's actually false. I think it was stated that the Dimension is above the realms and not trancend them. We know this is consistent as king kai who is native to that realm is literally fodder to Saiyan saga vegeta.

Yup, depends. But I still love that scan. When you factor in the DC transinfinite metaverse, Quantum Superman may be even higher than where he is now; heck even Mr. Myx. But yeah this topic has always been fun for me, because despite the different theories, we can find ways to explain their power magnitude.

How is that transfinte?

 

[ATARi.HMB]

That's actually false. I think it was stated that the Dimension is above the realms and not trancend them. We know this is consistent as king kai who is native to that realm is literally fodder to Saiyan saga vegeta.

How is that transfinte?

Well you're free to disagree, but the phrase is
"神々がつかさどる超自然の世界"
"天よりも高く、人間界からは窺い知ることができない次元を超越した天の国神々はこの地から世界のすべてを見おろしている "
[ENG]
"The supernatural world governed by the gods "
"The gods of heaven, who are higher than the sky, transcend the dimensions that cannot be seen from the human world, and are looking down on the whole world from here. "
They've establish the position of heaven being "high 高い" and the term "超越" transcend is literally in position to via を and 次元 "Dimensions"
Moreover, this is speaking of the "world/afterlife" itself transcending. Not the Kai's. You can think of it similar to the Chaos Force in Archie Sonic's comic if that makes sense.
After all, it's not like King Kai can destroy the afterlife; so I don't think position of authority indicates the general power scale. It's more so to express the magnitude of the afterlife's size for eastern and DB cosmology.

Make due with it what you will.

Now as for transinfinite, it's because every "instant", creates new infinites, and those infinities are universes; greater than the multiverse.
An infinite variable; quite literally matching the consistency of Low 2-C.