Why aren't the SSJ multipliers accepted here?

[Vizer04]

I'm talking just about the SS2 and SS3 multipliers since we do accept SSJ as a x50 boost in AP and speed.

The main argument against the use of these multipliers (x2 and x4 for SS2 and SS3, respectively) is because they're portrayed as huge boosts in the series (Gohan being weaker than Cell as a FPSSJ but stomping him with SS2, or Goku having the upper hand against Majin Buu who previously stomped Majin Vegeta), so they can't possibly be just x2 and x4 boosts, as that's too small to make any difference.

However, we already know that x2 or even less of gap is enough to have a huge advantage in Dragon Ball.

For example, Goku overpowered Vegeta with KKx3 alone, blitzing him:

And even making him bleed:

Keep in mind that Vegeta was stronger than Goku with KKx2, even calling his power "disappointing":

Which makes KKx3 less than a x1.5 advantage over Vegeta, yet Goku clearly had the upper hand during that part of the fight.

So, the multipliers for SS2 and SS3 aren't really inconsistent when compared to similar AP boosts from early Dragon Ball Z.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If Super Saiyan 2 is a measly 2x increase from Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 2 Goku managed to overpower and destroy Super Perfect Cell with less than 50% of his power, then Super Saiyan Gohan should have been able to sweep the suppressed Perfect Cell he fought.

 

[Vizer04]

Ok, that makes sense.

 

[MrHazama]

It's the Vs Battle wiki, what do ya expect?

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

If Super Saiyan 2 is a measly 2x increase from Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan 2 Goku managed to overpower and destroy Super Perfect Cell with less than 50% of his power, then Super Saiyan Gohan should have been able to sweep the suppressed Perfect Cell he fought.

Except part of why Gohan didn't sweep Cell was because he wasn't going all out. It was stated numerous times just how much he did not want to fight Cell, how he wasn't all in on the fight, and how he was afraid that by using his full power, he could endanger the Earth. I'm pretty neutral on SSJ2 being more than just 2x, but I disagree with this line of reasoning.

Even a enraged SSJ2 Gohan was confirmed by Goku to have been holding back his power until the very end. Another factor is that Anger has been shown in the series to be able to buff a Saiyan even further than just the form can take them. For example, when Vegeta performed much better against Beerus in BOG due to anger than he did without being angry, or how Zamasu and Black went from bodying him in SSJB to being treated like ragdoll's when he got angry. There's also Goku Black in that same arc accepting his anger as a source of power and gaining a significant power increase. SSJ2 could very well just be a 2x, and Gohan's Anger just drove him that much higher- Likewise, it's pretty much confirmed that Gohan isn't going all out when fighting Cell until the very end when Goku was assuring him during the Kamehameha clash.

You're treating it like it's a gap between a All Out SSJ1 Gohan vs a SSJ2 Gohan who lost 50% of his power, but it's more like a Self Imposed Mental Debuff SSJ1 Gohan vs a Enraged and Amped SSJ2 Gohan who lost 50% of his power and finally let go of his fear of using his power at the end. For all we know, if Gohan was blood thirsty, maybe he could have taken on and defeated a Suppressed Perfect Cell in just Super Saiyan- But his character dictated that he didn't until the line was crossed, and life was lost. Only then did he stop having reservations on killing Cell, and even then he refused to use his full power due to a mix of A, Sadism, and later on, B, Fear that he would harm the planet, or worse, destroy it (Which many character's can do with ease in the series if they find themselves unable to control their power.).

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Except part of why Gohan didn't sweep Cell was because he wasn't going all out.

Oh, I get it, he was only using a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of his full power. Gotcha.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

SSJ2 is clearly a lot stronger than 2x more AP wise compared to SSJ1. And even the jump from SSJ1 to SSJ2 isn't always consistent either; then again, given the multiple SSJ Grades and SSJ Mastered especially exist, it's actually more than 50x for the original SSJ multiplier.

As for SSJ3, 4x is just weirdly random tbh. It is noticeably above SSJ2, but not in any way is there indication on an exact multiplier.

 

[Vizer04]

I guess this can be closed now

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Alright