Umineko Revision 3: The New Tiering System

[Grabbing_dragon]

I am fine with the 1-A and 1-A+ proposals. I am fine with the City of Book’s tiering proposals for high 1-A; it was accepted to scale to Featherine's study in a past thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-umineko-revisions.112122/

Don't use the old tier system; this is the new tier system. The only statements this verse has are that she is inaccessible, outside the hierarchy, above infinite layers, etc. Yet, she still operates within the same framework, with the same quality. In this new tier system, she needs a direct statement that says she transcends the concept of r>f or statements that say she transcends all possible layers of Reality. She would transcend the framework with those, since a framework encompasses all possible layers with whatever quality is within them, including all types of infinities like alephs, inaccessible cardinals, absolute infinity, etc.

I think Featherine’s true form rating and Creator(s) can be High 1-A+, from Wanbreaker’s post. They have no limitations to anything they can create; they are free from any restriction in what they can create. The evidence points to reaching a state where there is no limit, especially when dealing with creation.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...new-tiering-system.170014/page-2#post-6766681

Featherine’s justification somewhat notes this point, although she is the closest to a creator but has no real limit on creation: As a Creator, she is completely boundless and devoid of any existential limits and restrictions, transcending the infinite layers that make up the world of Umineko

Nah for high 1A+ you need some tier 0 incarnation, modal realism or logical possibility stuff anyother stuff is not high 1A+

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Don't use the old tier system; this is the new tier system. The only statements this verse has are that she is inaccessible, outside the hierarchy, above infinite layers, etc. Yet, she still operates within the same framework, with the same quality. In this new tier system, she needs a direct statement that says she transcends the concept of r>f or statements that say she transcends all possible layers of Reality. She would transcend the framework with those, since a framework encompasses all possible layers with whatever quality is within them, including all types of infinities like alephs, inaccessible cardinals, absolute infinity, etc.

She has. More than one actually. It was pointed out in the thread.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Don't use the old tier system; this is the new tier system. The only statements this verse has are that she is inaccessible, outside the hierarchy, above infinite layers, etc. Yet, she still operates within the same framework, with the same quality. In this new tier system, she needs a direct statement that says she transcends the concept of r>f or statements that say she transcends all possible layers of Reality. She would transcend the framework with those, since a framework encompasses all possible layers with whatever quality is within them, including all types of infinities like alephs, inaccessible cardinals, absolute infinity, etc.

Nah for high 1A+ you need some tier 0 incarnation, modal realism or logical possibility stuff anyother stuff is not high 1A+

Do you think an administrator is NOT aware of the tiering system update?

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Do you think an administrator is NOT aware of the tiering system update?

nope

I am fine with the 1-A and 1-A+ proposals. I am fine with the City of Book’s tiering proposals for high 1-A; it was accepted to scale to Featherine's study in a past thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/some-umineko-revisions.112122/

You are a staff member. Can you provide the reason and scans? Can you defend why you agreed with this high 1A? What transcendence does Umineko have that is actually high 1A, that transcends the common genus (I prefer saying quality) that is relevant?

Featherine’s justification somewhat notes this point, although she is the closest to a creator but has no real limit on creation: As a Creator, she is completely boundless and devoid of any existential limits and restrictions, transcending the infinite layers that make up the world of Umineko

like i said this not not even high 1A+ and not even close to high 1A

 

[Robo432343]

disagree with grabbing dragon FRA

 

[Wankbreaker]

nope

You are a staff member. Can you provide the reason and scans? Can you defend why you agreed with this high 1A? What transcendence does Umineko have that is actually high 1A, that transcends the common genus (I prefer saying quality) that is relevant?

All of the reasons for this were…..explained in the thread

like i said this not not even high 1A+ and not even close to high 1A

If you disagree with the evaluation, that’s one thing, but don’t assume that the staff members don’t know what they’re talking about

 

[RigelBR7]

nope

You are a staff member. Can you provide the reason and scans? Can you defend why you agreed with this high 1A? What transcendence does Umineko have that is actually high 1A, that transcends the common genus (I prefer saying quality) that is relevant?

like i said this not not even high 1A+ and not even close to high 1A

Did you even read the CRT, or understand the updated system man?

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Do you think an administrator is NOT aware of the tiering system update?

It's also worth mentioning that said Admin is literally listed as one of the top Tiering System knowledgeable members.

And voted on part 1 and part 2 of the Tiering System overhaul threads

Don't have much of substance to add but that I agree with Elizhaa.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Did you even read the CRT, or understand the updated system man?

yes and understand what it means .
you calling this high 1A
We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain.

None of that qualifies and the other stuff you all talked about. I am just saying how the tier system truly works. Low 1A is the framework of all lower tiers, the genus, quality being dimensionality while 1A transcends the very concept of dimensionality, In 1A, the quality between layers becomes r>f, so high 1A transcends the very concept of r>f . While Featherine is using r>f over the witch domain, not transcending the very concept of r>f.

It's also worth mentioning that said Admin is literally listed as one of the top Tiering System knowledgeable members.

From what I see, staff who believe they are knowledgeable about something can just add themselves ,nonstaff members needs to ask a staff to be added . just because you think and believe it, doesn’t = everything you say is right or understand everything, you might even be wrong or not understand be mistaken. since everyone is human. So dont see the point to what you sent

And voted on part 1 and part 2 of the Tiering System overhaul threads

To agree to something does not mean you full understand what it means

Don't have much of substance to add but that I agree with Elizhaa.

All the reasons you just brought were both irrelevant to the thread and didn't prove why this verse reaches High 1A.

 

[Railgun]

We already discussed this topic multiple times. Please let people vote so we can move on. I don't think an admin will vote before reading the thread and discussions.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

High 1-A doesn't mean trascending "the concept of R>F" actually... I don't know where you read this, because not even in the Tiering System revision thread something like this was said.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

High 1-A doesn't mean trascending "the concept of R>F" actually... I don't know where you read this, because not even in the Tiering System revision thread something like this was said.

for transcerding the generic quality defining the hierarchy which is R>F here

 

[SweetDao]

V-Road to ten pages

 

[JustANormalPerson01]

Since this already is a 6 pages long thread, I'll try to summarize the arguments for High 1-A in a single post so people do not have to go through the entire thread to see it.

Spoiler: Arguments here

Characters or objects who transcend 1-A characters in the same vein that 1-A characters transcend the rest of the system.

Featherine is transcendental over the Witch Domain the same way the Witch Domain is transcendental over the Human Domain, mocking witches the same way they mock humans. Her power sees the creation equally as a story, regardless the level of the witch domain or Human domain, which she can control at will.

Additionally, for her true form the difference between the Human Domain (quantity, below 1-A) and the Witch Domain (realm of "quality", encompassing a hierarchy of qualitative superiorities) are seen as trivial, irrelevant.

That is to say: If there is a hierarchy of 1-A layers, each of which operates within the same framework, with the same "algorithm" dictating the difference between them, a High 1-A character would transcend the framework entirely, and instead operate on a different, higher hierarchy, governed by another, likewise higher algorithm.

Featherine's study exists on a realm entirely outside of the Witch Domain, i.e., outside of the framework of qualitative superiorities that is governed by the ladder

Q: Is transcending an 1-A character to the same degree they transcend normal humans High 1-A?​

A: Generally speaking, no. The first level of 1-A is obtained by surpassing the composition of a lower reality, such that no union, combination or permutation of things within it, no matter how numerous, can attain to the higher level. The next level up repeats this pattern, so that no union, permutation or combination of things in the previous level can attain to it. And so on and so forth. As such, this proportion is already covered by a single additional level.

However, depending on the context, it can be High 1-A or supporting evidence for it, indeed. Specifically, if the statement is not meant to be inform the actual proportion between the powers of two characters, but simply their relative position in a cosmology. As, in a certain respect, it is valid to say that "High 1-A transcends 1-A in the same way 1-A transcends lower tiers," insofar as High 1-A transcends the generic quality defining a hierarchy or potential hierarchy of qualitative layers, just as 1-A transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces.

From the Tiering System FAQ thread. Basically, it shows that you can consider "transcend 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans" as a way to become High 1-A, when it mwans transcending the generic quality defining the hierarchy of qualitative layers. Which is almost a 1:1 what Featherine's arguments are:

• She transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans
• Said diffefence is shown to be a transcendence over the generic quality defining a hierarchy of qualitative layers (as it is outside of the Witch Domain due to being transcendental over it. That including the ladder of qualitative superiority), just as 1-A (witches) transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces (Human Domain)

Counter Arguments

From what I've seen, the main counter argument comes from thinking that Featherine is just a r>f on top over the hierarchy of the Witch Domain, instead of another hierarchy over it, "an inaccesible cardinal of Qualitative Superiorities". And that "none of that implies that it transcends the quality the same way 1-A transcends the quality of all possible dimensional spaces".

-

Anyway, in my opinion Featherine's description is almost a 1:1 to the description of the part of the FAQ I've sent.

I'll not touch High 1-A+ because I honestly haven't read the arguments for it. So I'll let other people summarize them for admins

 

[HigashikataJobin]

for transcerding the generic quality defining the hierarchy which is R>F here

And that is something she does? What you pointed in your previous comment was just one of the many reasons.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Since this already is a 6 pages long thread, I'll try to summarize the arguments for High 1-A in a single post so people do not have to go through the entire thread to see it.

Spoiler: Arguments here

Featherine is transcendental over the Witch Domain the same way the Witch Domain is transcendental over the Human Domain, mocking witches the same way they mock humans. Her power sees the creation equally as a story, regardless the level of the witch domain or Human domain, which she can control at will.

Additionally, for her true form the difference between the Human Domain (quantity, below 1-A) and the Witch Domain (realm of "quality", encompassing a hierarchy of qualitative superiorities) are seen as trivial, irrelevant.

Featherine's study exists on a realm entirely outside of the Witch Domain, i.e., outside of the framework of qualitative superiorities that is governed by the ladder

From the Tiering System FAQ thread. Basically, it shows that you can consider "transcend 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans" as a way to become High 1-A, when it mwans transcending the generic quality defining the hierarchy of qualitative layers. Which is almost a 1:1 what Featherine's arguments are:

• She transcends 1-A the same way 1-A transcends normal humans
• Said diffefence is shown to be a transcendence over the generic quality defining a hierarchy of qualitative layers (as it is outside of the Witch Domain due to being transcendental over it. That including the ladder of qualitative superiority), just as 1-A (witches) transcends the qualities defining all conceivable dimensional spaces (Human Domain)

Counter Arguments

From what I've seen, the main counter argument comes from thinking that Featherine is just a r>f on top over the hierarchy of the Witch Domain, instead of another hierarchy over it, "an inaccesible cardinal of Qualitative Superiorities". And that "none of that implies that it transcends the quality the same way 1-A transcends the quality of all possible dimensional spaces".

-

Anyway, in my opinion Featherine's description is almost a 1:1 to the description of the part of the FAQ I've sent.

I'll not touch High 1-A+ because I honestly haven't read the arguments for it. So I'll let other people summarize them for admins

Also, to complement this, there's the fact that to her any and all rules of the Witch Domain doesn't matter to her, since she can ignore, rewrite and pass Said rules as she sees fit.

And in Memoirs of Lambdadelta, Lambda (1-A/1-A+ Witch) describes Featherine as an being without any limits, not even having "a ground to step in".

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

you calling this high 1A
We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain.

Pretty sure that is her avatar form -_-
You're specifically highlighting a single part of the OP without highlighting its context

Even higher than the Witch Domain​

We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain. Furthermore, it seems that her Study and City of Books seem to also be outside the Witch Domain, very likely being situated in this higher domain.

Additionally, it is noted that the difference between the domains is trivial to her, and Tohya Hachijo and Featherine Augustus Aurora are just roles of an indescribable actor entity. Featherine's main power also allows her to see the entirety of Creation as a story and rewrite it at will. And, finally, Piece also mentions that Featherine is the "Great Pillar that supports the World".

Based on this, I think this world that Featherine reached, including her Study and the City of Books, along with Featherine's True Form should all qualify for High 1-A.

You do know what what means, right?
From the statement that "she sees the realm of the witches the same way they see the realm of humans" either means 2 things

1. Her nature is that of a higher layer of R>F compared to the witch domain, thus seeing the witch domain as much fictional as they see the human domain.
2. Just like how the witch domain sees the "common genus" governing the human world[higher dimensionality] as fiction, FAA sees the "common genus" of the witch domain [R>F] as fiction/irrelevant.

For this specific case, it's the latter because we're specifically told that she sees the difference between the witch domain and the human domain[a difference of Reality and Fiction] as irrelevant.

Whether that scan is referring to her avatar form OR her true form[I'm not sure which one of this is the case], that something is High 1-A here
And of course, there is this too:

And in Memoirs of Lambdadelta, Lambda (1-A/1-A+ Witch) describes Featherine as an being without any limits, not even having "a ground to step in".

None of that qualifies and the other stuff you all talked about. I am just saying how the tier system truly works. Low 1A is the framework of all lower tiers, the genus, quality being dimensionality while 1A transcends the very concept of dimensionality, In 1A, the quality between layers becomes r>f, so high 1A transcends the very concept of r>f . While Featherine is using r>f over the witch domain, not transcending the very concept of r>f.

Again, all of this is your own conclusion from a single scan, rather then thoroughly reading the OP.

like i said this not not even high 1A+ and not even close to high 1A

That's your own opinion without any relevant backing. Sure, what you're saying goes along with the "standards", but that's it, what you're saying does NOT go with what is presented in the OP. So in essence, you're talking about the standards without knowing what part of the standard holds true in what part of the OP.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Pretty sure that is her avatar form -_-
You're specifically highlighting a single part of the OP without highlighting its context

nope

You do know what what means, right?
From the statement that "she sees the realm of the witches the same way they see the realm of humans" either means 2 things

1. Her nature is that of a higher layer of R>F compared to the witch domain, thus seeing the witch domain as much fictional as they see the human domain

like i already said that higher into 1A+, she needs to transcerd the very idea of R>F like ultima said about marvel, it transcends all forms of reality and dream

1. .
2. Just like how the witch domain sees the "common genus" governing the human world[higher dimensionality] as fiction, FAA sees the "common genus" of the witch domain [R>F] as fiction/irrelevant.

that does not matter ,A character who is 1 layer above 1A can do that and still using the same quality.

For this specific case, it's the latter because we're specifically told that she sees the difference between the witch domain and the human domain[a difference of Reality and Fiction] as irrelevant.

being irrelevant does not mean transcerd and they are not even the logical nagation of eachother

Again, all of this is your own conclusion from a single scan, rather then thoroughly reading the OP.

Nope, just saying how tier system works and looked at the scans they dont qualify since people where changing the wording sometimes

That's your own opinion without any relevant backing. Sure, what you're saying goes along with the "standards", but that's it, what you're saying does NOT go with what is presented in the OP. So in essence, you're talking about the standards without knowing what part of the standard holds true in what part of the OP.

it is just not enough for high 1A.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

like i already said that higher into 1A+, she needs to transcerd the very idea of R>F like ultima said about marvel, it transcends all forms of reality and dream

It's funny because the example you brought is exactly the same case with Umineko, as explained in like just one page back in this thread.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

It's funny because the example you brought is exactly the same case with Umineko, as explained in like just one page back in this thread.

Nope Umineko lacks the transcerdent needed , give a scan that says Featherine transcerds all forms of reality and fiction rather than just assuming it

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Nope Umineko lacks the transcerded needed , give a scan that says Featherine transcerds all forms of reality and fiction rather than just assuming it

It's... literally in the thread? You just need to go back 1-2 pages, man...

 

[Railgun]

Nope Umineko lacks the transcerded needed , give a scan that says Featherine transcerds all forms of reality and fiction rather than just assuming it

You can read the op or the justanormalperson's comment

 

[Wankbreaker]

V-Road to ten pages

I blame you, partly

 

[IlekVad14]

It's... literally in the thread? You just need to go back 1-2 pages, man...

Don't bother entertaining this person, If they aren't willing to review what's already been discussed, then it's not your job to do it for them. In fact, we're just clogging up this thread with these somewhat pointless arguments. Hence I'd recommend just waiting for more staff input.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Nope Umineko lacks the transcerded needed , give a scan that says Featherine transcerds all forms of reality and fiction rather than just assuming it

It's even funnier that you said a H1-A character needs to transcend the "very concept of R>F", and them the example that you bring is of a High 1-A character... having a R>F relation to a 1-A+ structure.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

It's... literally in the thread? You just need to go back 1-2 pages, man...

the scan did say anything about transcerdent over idea of R>F https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...of-the-new-tiering-system.170014/post-6768279 , you just assuming stuff and adding stuff that the scan didnt say

 

[SweetDao]

I blame you, partly

Hey, you can't say that! I've not said anything for multiples pages!

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

It's even funnier that you said a H1-A character needs to transcend the "very concept of R>F", and them the example that you bring is of a High 1-A character... having a R>F relation to a 1-A+ structure.

So 1A transcerds the very concept of dimensionality while operating on a different notion of dimensionality than the lower tiers , same goes for high 1A it transcerds the very concept of R>F of tier 1A while operating on different higher R>F

 

[Wankbreaker]

So 1A transcerds the very concept of dimensionality while operating on a different notion of dimensionality than the lower tiers , same goes for high 1A it transcerds the very concept of R>F of tier 1A while operating on different higher R>F

you’ve basically described what we’ve been trying to say for over 3 pages. No offense,but you’re not adding anything new that hasn’t been addressed in this conversation

 

[HigashikataJobin]

you’ve basically described what we’ve been trying to say for over 3 pages. No offense,but you’re not adding anything new that hasn’t been addressed in this conversation

He actually added. If anything, the comment linking Ultima's explanation and example of how High 1-A works just supported even more Featherine's case

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

you’ve basically described what we’ve been trying to say for over 3 pages. No offense,but you’re not adding anything new that hasn’t been addressed in this conversation

From that reaction you dont yet understand the new tier system , give me a scan that says she transcerds the very concept of R>F, you may have already talked about the other stuff , the problem is the verse does not have the transcendent needed for High 1A

 

[HigashikataJobin]

This is troll behavior at this point fr man

 

[Hasty12345]

the scan did say anything about transcerdent over idea of R>F https://vsbattles.com/threads/when-...of-the-new-tiering-system.170014/post-6768279 , you just assuming stuff and adding stuff that the scan didnt say

You have said your piece. Stop spamming the thread.

 

[Livinaa]

We are told that Featherine reached an even higher world than the Domain of Witches, one from which the entire Witch Domain is a mere gameboard, the same way the Human Domain is to the Witch Domain. Furthermore, it seems that her Study and City of Books seem to also be outside the Witch Domain, very likely being situated in this higher domain.

Shouldn't this just be higher into 1-A+? It seeing the whole Witch Domain (1-A+) as a gameboard (fiction) is really just higher into 1-A+ (higher than just Infinite R>F layers). In fact, isn't the whole point of layers in 1-A, is to see all the lower layers below it as fiction?

Just as baseline 1-A views non 1-A as fiction, 1 layer above baseline would view both baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction. It's the same with uncountable infinite R>F. It views both infinite R>F and non 1-A as fiction. And as SweetDao has pointed out, the Third Domain being unreachable to Witches is more likely to be inaccessible cardinal (or higher) amount of R>F layers instead of being High 1-A.

Additionally, it is noted that the difference between the domains is trivial to her, and Tohya Hachijo and Featherine Augustus Aurora are just roles of an indescribable actor entity.

It's almost the same as Dragon Talisman's 10th Deathless, with the Human Domain being Non 1-A and Witch Domain 1-A. I can see Featherine's true form being High 1-A.

 

[Wankbreaker]

Shouldn't this just be higher into 1-A+? It seeing the whole Witch Domain (1-A+) as a gameboard (fiction) is really just higher into 1-A+ (higher than just Infinite R>F layers). In fact, isn't the whole point of layers in 1-A, is to see all the lower layers below it as fiction?

Read the rest of the thread, it explains why it isn’t just that.

Just as baseline 1-A views non 1-A as fiction, 1 layer above baseline would view both baseline 1-A and non 1-A as fiction. It's the same with uncountable infinite R>F. It views both infinite R>F and non 1-A as fiction. And as SweetDao has pointed out, the Third Domain being unreachable to Witches is more likely to be inaccessible cardinal (or higher) amount of R>F layers instead of being High 1-A.

See above.

It's almost the same as Dragon Talisman's 10th Deathless, with the Human Domain being Non 1-A and Witch Domain 1-A. I can see Featherine's true form being High 1-A.

So you agree the third domain is High 1-A?

 

[Floxiaaa]

this is basically High 1-A. Neutral for above

 

[Livinaa]

The Witch Domain is akin to an endless ladder, with its layers or “steps” being called Endeavors. The higher on the ladder they go the fewer restrictions they have proportionally, until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.

It's mentioned here that the layers (Endeavors) in Witch Domain is to lose restrictions until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.

All mentions of Featherine being a Creator should be purged from her profile. In Umineko Saku - Last Note, the final Umineko entry we got (excluding the Higurashi Mei colabs), we are directly told that she is not a Creator, just the closest one to it. Featherine chose to not become a Creator because the final restriction is that of identity, so she would have lost herself and disappeared.

Wouldn't Featherine still having a restriction (albeit only a single one) imply that she still stands at the last step/Endeavor, layers that should only exist in Witch Domain?

 

[SweetDao]

Same scenery, filled with strangers.

The infinite loop thus began once again.

 

[Hasty12345]

Thread should be re-titled "Umineko: When Supporters Cry Episode 9 - opps aren't reading the arguments"

 

[Wankbreaker]

It's mentioned here that the layers (Endeavors) in Witch Domain is to lose restrictions until they lack any restrictions and become a Creator.


Wouldn't Featherine still having a restriction (albeit only a single one) imply that she still stands at the last step/Endeavor, layers that should only exist in Witch Domain?

The “distant place” they are mentioning is the third domain, aka the domain of the creator, so no.