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When The Discussion Cries - New Forum

Nekobako said:
There's no doubt that Line is close to being the strongest character. At the same time, she's a pretty embarrassing character. She features herself in her own work and writes, "I'm super strong!" (laughs). It's like a fantasy novel in which the author himself is the strongest protagonist.

I misunderstood about that because the translation in the wiki looks like it refers to himself so it's wiki mistranslate this (?)
Click to expand...

It's a misstranslation, yes.
 
Let me try to summarize about tier 0 Creator to check whether I understand or not

...... However, the fact that they create everything and are freed from all restrictions means they don't even have a restriction such as the ground under their feet.
Beings that completely lost all restrictions, ...... in exchange for obtaining everything, they lose even the restriction of their own 'meaning'.
...... Even the notion of life and death disappears, even the meaning of the existing disappears, ...... they reach the limits of the zero.
Click to expand...
1) Creator is the state of nothingness without a restriction which is defined the existence of everything as they ontology so Creator has Transduality from everything other than Creator

Beings that completely lost all restrictions, ...... in exchange for obtaining everything, they lose even the restriction of their own 'meaning'.
Click to expand...
2) Creator is the state of everything "at the same time" with its own nature with transduality
Why I mentioned this?
Tier 0 definition by Ultima
Specifically: Take a hypothetical character, and then, let us demand that it be totally undifferentiated, and in all senses "one" with regards to its existence, which does not admit any kind of parts at all in its substance. (For convenience's sake, let's call it a "Monad")
Click to expand...
3) Depth of Oblivion where is the closest place to Creator with a single restriction left which defines the existence of will, thought with the division between them to exist as individuality. This implies that "restrictions" defines the division between the existence as well including the division between fiction and reality from the difference between restrictions
 
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"......Is that so? ...Well, it is true that I can't use traps without love behind them."

- Tatarigoroshi-hen | TIPS - Satoko's Trap Course (Advanced)
 
Is thought and will (as the final restriction of a witch before becoming a Creator) a factor that make witches able to regain their form from Depth of Oblivion so becoming a Creator is the true death for witches because they lack thought and will to decide to do that?
 
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Found an argument from somewhere else. What you do think about this?
Furthermore, the Creator is described as creating "1 from 0" out of the "sea of nothingness", positioning them as an agent acting within the Void rather than encompassing it; a Tier 0, akin to the Dao, would be the Sea, the Creator, and the distinction thereof simultaneously. Instead, the description of them "vanishing like mist" upon losing restrictions suggests a return to Nothingness rather than actual dominion. In fact, the notion that they can actually vanish into the Sea or become a Creator just furthers this point.
Click to expand...
Even if the Creator was Tier 0, witches ascending to it would still be an issue that would either disprove or seriously contend it being Boundless in the first place, since Umineko itself doesn't really have evidence for a processional "return to the source," rather it operates on Ontological Dependence (narrative layers) rather than emanationism so to speak, meaning this "apotheosis" is simply hitting a cosmological ceiling rather than merging with an Ultimate Reality.
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On the Sea of Nothingness: The text explicitly says they create "1 out of the sea" and return "1 to 0". This phrasing separates the Creator (the actor) from the Sea (the material/medium). A character, in this case the Creator, cannot be the source of the Sea if then they're described as extracting from it. If the Creator "returns" to Zero, then the Zero (the Void) is the ultimate destination and container, not the Creator. The Creator is just the highest "swimmer" in that Sea.
Click to expand...
 
MrKerf said:
I am... not sure what's the point here, exactly. :unsure:
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The point of the 3rd one is because Creator created everything out of 0 from Sea of nothingness that means Creator itself isn't the source of everything (as how tier 0 should be) but just a creator while Sea of nothingness itself is (as the empty space for the Creator to create everything) unless Sea of nothingness or 0 in question was also created by the Creator
 
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Nekobako said:
The point of the 3rd one is because Creator created everything out of 0 which is Sea of nothingness which means Creator isn't the source of everything that tier 0 should be unless Sea of nothingness or 0 in question was also created by the Creator
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Isnt that what the statement implied when saying "They can give birth to 1 from 0, give birth to the endless, and then return it to 0 again in a flash." And "Omniscient and omnipotent, they bring forth all things...." like I think its self explanatory, No?
 
Jackofalltrades_1 said:
Isnt that what the statement implied when saying "They can give birth to 1 from 0, give birth to the endless, and then return it to 0 again in a flash." And "Omniscient and omnipotent, they bring forth all things...." like I think its self explanatory, No?
Click to expand...
Creators are sacred beings who can create 1 out of the sea of nothingness.

This means Sea of nothingness is an exception because Creator created everything from it. if Creator is tier 0, Sea of nothingness itself must be its creation as well
 
Nekobako said:
It's the same as above 😭
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Oh.. I didn’t read your post fully and just thought you were asking for scans. It says "they bring forth all things.." unless they say the sea of zero isn’t part of creation, which doesn’t make sense as it is part of the hierarchy of the cosmology and has been interacted (NOT Manipulated) and talked about by the characters. Basically it makes no sense for the sea of zero to no be part of the entirety of what was created.

"
Beings that completely lost all restrictions,


...


in exchange for


obtaining everything, they lose even the restriction of their own 'meaning


meaning.....


Even the notion of life and death disappears, even the meaning of the existing disappears,


.. they reach the limits of


the zero. Or fall. Crash. Crumble. Vanish


like mist."

This statement isn’t talking about the creator vanishing into nothing. It’s talking about "The restriction of their meaning", “The notion of life and death" and “The meaning of existence” reaching the limits of zero and crumbling.


They loose what makes them "Them".
 
Nekobako said:
if Creator is tier 0, Sea of nothingness itself must be its creation as well
Click to expand...
Technically speaking, I don't think that should be the case. Tier 0 is just Omnipotence, unreachableness, and existence beyond any divisions and such. It doesn't require Creator to create the Sea of Oblivion.

So, if the Creator is the Presence, the Sea of Oblivion is the Overvoid, for example. At least I think so.
 
MrKerf said:
Technically speaking, I don't think that should be the case. Tier 0 is just Omnipotence, unreachableness, and existence beyond any divisions and such. It doesn't require Creator to create the Sea of Oblivion.

So, if the Creator is the Presence, the Sea of Oblivion is the Overvoid, for example. At least I think so.
Click to expand...
I don't know about DC but I think that is weird if everything didn't come from tier 0. I think it doesn't need to be a direct creation but should be come from tier 0 in some sense like

  • Sea of nothingness is just a dream of Creator
  • Sea of nothingness is just a shadow of Creator
Then Creator created everything from Sea of nothingness.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Nekobako is cooking Umineko 2
Click to expand...
Ofc, maintaining the argument is my top priority (just kidding)
598618160_2180833525781100_4119898049166762264_n.jpg

It's just my question by the way because I'm also confused about their relationship so far.
 
Nekobako said:
I don't know about DC but I think that is weird if everything didn't come from tier 0. I think it doesn't need to be a direct creation but should be come from tier 0 in some sense like

  • Sea of nothingness is just a dream of Creator
  • Sea of nothingness is just a shadow of Creator
Then Creator created everything from Sea of nothingness.
Click to expand...
Well, let’s look at Pralaya, for a better example, and compare her to the Presence.

Basically, Pralaya is the Sea of Brahma and such. And the Presence transcends her infinitely. For the purposes of the tiering, nothing else really matters. In fact, it doesn’t matter if the Presence creates anything or not (see Azathoth), the very fact of being HIM is enough.

I am using DC examples, as they are the better description wise. Technically, most such cases do reference being Tier 0’s dream or something, but I don’t think it’s a requirement.
 
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