• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

When The Discussion Cries - New Forum

May I ask what does fuel debates about canonicity of Rewrite? Does it wank cosmology to disgusting level, or add some cosmic level of bullshit hax?
Btw, thinking about going into franchise. Where I should start? Manga or visual novel? I would personally prefer manga, if it doesn't cut anything important from VN
 
Qurbonboev said:
May I ask what does fuel debates about canonicity of Rewrite?
Click to expand...

The debate exists primarily because people who do not consume anything from the franchise do not understand how canonicity works in the verse. They tend to generalize, applying cases from other franchises that have nothing in common with it.

There is also the fact that, to this day, no one with truly competent knowledge of 07th as a whole has taken the time and effort to explain everything in an orderly way, which is understandable given that it is an enormous franchise. Unfortunately, this was a fairly common problem in the past.

Qurbonboev said:
Does it wank cosmology to disgusting level, or add some cosmic level of bullshit hax?
Click to expand...

Yes. Rewrite expands the scale of the cosmology considerably and gives a whole bunch of hax to every entity beyond Purgatorio.

Qurbonboev said:
Btw, thinking about going into franchise. Where I should start? Manga or visual novel?
Click to expand...

According to Ryukishi07, the manga and the visual novel in works like Umineko are equally valid and simply present the events in different ways, adapting them to each specific medium, so you can choose based on your tastes and your reading style.

Ryukishi07’s visual novels are dense and a bit slow at the beginning, but they have incredible peaks, good CGs, excellent music, and very good voice acting.

The manga is more condensed and the art is generally quite good, and it also has extra material that does not appear in the VN.

I would always recommend the VN, regardless of the work.
 
Since DarkLK was mentioned in the thread and my friend really wants me to show a certain link to Berny, I have come forth and decided to do just that. The Creator, in the minds of the Russian folk, and Koshka, made and updated by him as well

Need to address, however, that the latter profile (even after the update that happened somewhere back in 2022) is outdated (just like any other profile on 07th Expansion there), and currently is the only verse that is ranked at tier 1 en masse (I will not elaborate further on that)
 
Also, Im surprised how fast mods come to these threads, I remember back then ovy7 made his thread and it took months for a single mod to answer in the thread
 
I realized something that 1-A in Umineko is not literal R>F since it didn't describe the lower world as a fiction but as a book/gameboard/fragment
The Witches look down on the world of Humans as a gameboard from the higher world. Think of a gameboard the same way as a DnD gameboard is for us, they are like a game set up to show worlds of the lower layer as stories. These gameboards are usually portrayed as Kakera/Fragments, pieces of crystal that represent the conceptual form of lower worlds. These Witches are completely freed from the limitations of the Human Domain, having transcended it and being able to “walk” between the Kakera. Even the languages of the Human Domain are limited compared to the words of the higher Domain.
Click to expand...
Reality-Fiction Transcendence is a state where a being is qualitatively superior to another world, as a result of seeing the world as fiction and thus being more 'real' than said world. Due to this, the character will be treated as completely superior to the cosmology it transcends, and all characters limited to it, and will thus be granted a higher tier.
Click to expand...
but we still have the statement about dimensionality structure of the human domain and ontological difference from "Restrictions" and "Transcendental language" so it's still Qualitative Superiority (maybe it's better to explain why they are ontology in the context or work the same as it in the future revision)
 
Railgun said:
i dont understand why this wouldnt work for R>F?
Click to expand...
Being a book doesn't directly into being a fiction in all cases when it can be just a mere representation of the lower world (like a universe with a shape of book instead of bubble). For example, multiverse in Madoka is just a book to her but this is not R>F
 
That's just ignoring all the context behind the reasoning of Reality-Fiction Difference for 07th Expansion.

07th Expansion is not simply rated as 1-A because it "sees the lower world like a Book/Gameboard", but because the events of the lower world are perceived as a game where characters can enter by choosing their avatar similar to the way one chooses an character to play a videogame; characters from the Meta-World are both in verse and in interviews acknowledged to be like actors who play the role of the characters in the different stories they appear in (or writers/tricksters which make movements on the game the same way the player of a game does); the events of the game are rendered meaningless to the higher-level world, given they are just killing pieces whose state will be returned to life in the following game; and a huge etcetera.
 
Last edited:
Nekobako said:
I realized something that 1-A in Umineko is not literal R>F since it didn't describe the lower world as a fiction but as a book/gameboard/fragment


but we still have the statement about dimensionality structure of the human domain and ontological difference from "Restrictions" and "Transcendental language" so it's still Qualitative Superiority (maybe it's better to explain why they are ontology in the context or work the same as it in the future revision)
Click to expand...

😐
 
JustANormalPerson01 said:
That's just ignoring all the context behind the reasoning of Reality-Fiction Difference for 07th Expansion.

07th Expansion is not simply rated as 1-A because it "sees the lower world like a Book/Gameboard", but because the events of the lower world are perceived as a game where characters can enter by choosing their avatar similar to the way one chooses an character to play a videogame; characters from the Meta-World are both in verse and in interviews acknowledged to be like actors who play the role of the characters in the different stories they appear in (or writers/tricksters which make movements on the game the same way the player of a game does); the events of the game are rendered meaningless to the higher-level world, given they are just killing pieces whose state will be returned to life in the following game; and a huge etcetera.
Click to expand...
Higher-world is outside of the system of game/story of the lower world. Higher world with Ac4 have the similar explanation to this ig.
 
Nekobako said:
Higher-world is outside of the system of game/story of the lower world. Higher world with Ac4 have the similar explanation to this ig.
Click to expand...
In order to qualify they must view the world as a some actual form of 'fiction', i.e. to them what happens in the fiction is not real and of no physical consequence to their being and also otherwise is of no greater consequence to their being than an actual fictional character could reasonably be to a real life human.
Click to expand...
The events of the games/fragments are meaningless to beings in the Meta-World. They are nothing but movement of pieces from their perspective.
However, the medium in which they view the world as fiction generally does not matter, as it being fiction is enough for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence to be considered.
Click to expand...
In this case, the medium in 07th Expansion varies from games, books, gameboards, fragments...
Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.
Click to expand...
Basically what Kakera is. Kakeras and books are the containment of the stories on the higher-order worlds, they shape and form everything contained within it. And it may appear in the form of different media
However, bear in mind that simple visual portrayals of a character viewing the world within some such construct are not enough to qualify. And so, for example, a cosmic entity being depicted as seeing the universe as a computer game "because this is the only way human minds can comprehend it" would not suffice, and likewise, neither would cases where a Reality/Fiction metaphor is simply used as an analogy for higher dimensions. Broadly speaking, it ought to be reasonably clear that the higher world views the lower one as something insubstantial relative to itself, or in other words, that the Reality/Fiction relationship be meant as relatively literal.
Click to expand...
Additionally, we do know the Reality/Fiction relationship is not used to represent the difference between dimensions nor a metaphor, but a higher world with "a different set of dimensions". Not an N+1-D realm. Characters above are not higher-dimensional beings, but literal author/players/tricksters that construct, edit, read and manipulate the script from the world below.
In general, such cases can be relatively straightforward, as in cosmologies where conventional reality is portrayed as "not really real," and there are superior, "more real" worlds beyond it.
Click to expand...
Sums up what I've said so far.
If, on top of that, the higher world is depicted as being one that is inhabited by literal readers, authors and consumers of media, and not simply cosmic beings taking the metaphorical appearance of such (Take this article's image as reference),<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Reality-Fiction_Transcendence#cite_note-2"><span>[</span>note 2<span>]</span></a> then that is substantial evidence for a Reality-Fiction Transcendence, in particular if the higher plane demonstrably has its own set of dimensions, so that it is impossible for it and the lower world to be related to each other by dimensional differences.
Click to expand...
We do know that, from the perspective of the Meta-Worlds, characters are authors, actors, readers, writers, and office workers. It is when compared to the lower world that their existence is like that of an eldritch being.

Q: What is "qualitative superiority"?​

A: To put it simply: It is superiority over lesser things that involves no element of quantity, or amount, in any manner whatsoever. It, instead, hinges entirely on the nature of the character's existence and ontology. In general, all characters with such superiority over lesser things are 1-A.
Click to expand...
A character that holds a qualitative superiority over lesser things, however, represents a full discrete jump from everything that came before. They reside in a greater mode of existence entirely, being irreducible to anything that lies in the lower state of existence.

This inaccessibility possessed by qualitatively superior characters and realms can also be expressed in terms of sheer ontology, generally speaking. That is to say: They are fundamentally different from the nature of the lower reality, and this different nature is precisely the source of their superiority over it. Since their "otherness" is identical to their transcendence, no expansion or extension of the lower reality and anything in it can possibly attain to them, as long as it maintains its particular nature. Put it simply: They are as powerful as they are alien.
Click to expand...
We know that this happens in the Witch Domain. Characters from the Human Domain cannot reach it regardless what they do. Even Beatrice, whose endless magic let her expand anything infinitely, couldn't bypass the barrier that differenciates 'Human' from 'Witch'. Even Kotarou, whose Rewrite ability grants him endless evolution and who touched the concept of infinity while ascending through the existential ladder, found the difference as something he couldn't reach regardless how many times he used his ability to rewrite and ascend.

And even after Beatrice was granted the ability to reach the Witch Domain by Lambdadelta, were Lambdadelta to stop supporting her, she'd return to be a human and lose her status as a witch. Because regardless how vast her magical power is, she still needs a higher-order guardian to exist on that world given she hadn't reached that evolution by herself.

So, all in all, no. 07th Expansion's Reality-Fiction transcendence is not just "sees lower worlds as books/gameboards", nor just "beings with Acausality Type 4 and Plot Manipulation" (though they do indeed trascend the laws of causality that govern the fragments. As for one to ascend to the witch domain they need to sever the principle of causality that bounds them to the Human World), but a cumulative of proof of how the higher world is qualitatively greater than the lower one in all senses. If it weren't for the state of the verse, it should be one of the "Acceptable Examples" in Reality-Fiction Difference page given the sheer amount of information that supports the Meta-World being on a higher quality than the Human World.
 
Last edited:
JustANormalPerson01 said:
The events of the games/fragments are meaningless to beings in the Meta-World. They are nothing but movement of pieces from their perspective.

In this case, the medium in 07th Expansion varies from games, books, gameboards, fragments...

Basically what Kakera is. Kakeras and books are the containment of the stories on the higher-order worlds, they shape and form everything contained within it. And it may appear in the form of different media

Additionally, we do know the Reality/Fiction relationship is not used to represent the difference between dimensions nor a metaphor, but a higher world with "a different set of dimensions". Not an N+1-D realm. Characters above are not higher-dimensional beings, but literal author/players/tricksters that construct, edit, read and manipulate the script from the world below.

Sums up what I've said so far.

We do know that, from the perspective of the Meta-Worlds, characters are authors, actors, readers, writers, and office workers. It is when compared to the lower world that their existence is like that of an eldritch being.


We know that this happens in the Witch Domain. Characters from the Human Domain cannot reach it regardless what they do. Even Beatrice, whose endless magic let her expand anything infinitely, couldn't bypass the barrier that differenciates 'Human' from 'Witch'. Even Kotarou, whose Rewrite ability grants him endless evolution and who touched the concept of infinity while ascending through the existential ladder, found the difference as something he couldn't reach regardless how many times he used his ability to rewrite and ascend.

And even after Beatrice was granted the ability to reach the Witch Domain by Lambdadelta, were Lambdadelta to stop supporting her, she'd return to be a human and lose her status as a witch. Because regardless how vast her magical power is, she still needs a higher-order guardian to exist on that world given she hadn't reached that evolution by herself.

So, all in all, no. 07th Expansion's Reality-Fiction transcendence is not just "sees lower worlds as books/gameboards", nor just "beings with Acausality Type 4 and Plot Manipulation" (though they do indeed trascend the laws of causality that govern the fragments. As for one to ascend to the witch domain they need to break the principle of causality that bounds them to the Human World), but a cumulative of proof of how the higher world is qualitatively greater than the lower one in all senses. If it weren't for the state of the verse, it should be one of the "Acceptable Examples" in Reality-Fiction Difference page given the sheer amount of information that supports the Meta-World being on a higher quality than the Human World.
Click to expand...
Ok
I just want more clarification about R>F since viewing as a book alone isn't enough for R>F
 
Last edited:
Nekobako said:
Ok
I just want more clarification about R>F since viewing as a book alone isn't enough for R>F
Click to expand...
Umineko's cosmology literally works with R>F Transcendences; the idea of "seeing as a book" or "as a game of chess" in Umineko is precisely an R>F Transcendence. There are several examples of this, such as the Game-Masters existing on higher existential planes of the Meta-World, or Featherine transcending and seeing the entire Witch Domain as a game of chess.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Should I make a little Discord server for 07th discussions about future CRTs?

Maybe a group chat would be enough actually, lol.
 
MrKerf said:
But why? We have this entire thread for it XD
Click to expand...
I see Discord as much easier to use for discussions and such, and it's also much simpler to send scales and scans there. Anyway, I support the use of Discord because unfortunately I have to use this forum on my cell phone, since I don't have a PC. It's really difficult for me to participate in the discussions here because my cell phone "doesn't support" this forum properly for some reason, etc. In any case, you can just ignore this second part as it's more of a problem specific to me and not a general issue.
 
PristineWater said:
Anyone explained to me what is meta-meta qualitative is ??
I understand 1-A but beyond that its just weird
Like I understand High 1-A being basically being qualitative higher than 1-A (basically Featherine description)
Click to expand...
Basically: the idea is that "Meta-Qualities" are completely independent and transcendent hierarchies over lower hierarchies, but what "differentiates" them is that this transcendence is beyond any possible layers of the "framework" of lower hierarchies. For example: an infinite, uncountable number of layers in High 1-A is still a Meta-Qualitative, since all layers exist within the same framework. A Meta-Meta-Qualitative structure would completely transcend the framework of the lower hierarchy, so simply adding more qualitative layers to such a hierarchy is still insufficient to reach a higher hierarchy, precisely because of this difference between the frameworks of both. An example: a Meta-Meta-Quality transcends a Meta-Quality, so that such a meta-quality can have as many existential layers as there are aleph numbers or inaccessible cardinal numbers, and it will still be a meta-qualitative, never reaching the "Meta-Meta-Qualitative". This, of course, extends to meta-meta-meta-qualities, meta-meta-meta-meta-qualities, and so on. Sorry if this explanation seemed confusing; it's something extremely complex and difficult to understand at first.
Also, Featherine can be scaled to High 1-A in a extremely high Meta-Qualitative.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
PristineWater said:
Anyone explained to me what is meta-meta qualitative is ??
I understand 1-A but beyond that its just weird
Like I understand High 1-A being basically being qualitative higher than 1-A (basically Featherine description)
Click to expand...
1-A = Qualitative
High 1-A = Meta-qualitative

So High 1-A Meta-Meta-qualitative transcended High 1-A (Meta-Qualitative) the same way as how High 1-A transcended 1-A.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Ovy7
  • Locked
Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 2
2 3 4
Replies
120
Views
28K
Antvasima
Antvasima
ExcelsisBerny
  • Locked
Get Battler'ed Lmao | Deletion of 07th Expansion [Staff Votes: 5 - 0]
2 3
Replies
110
Views
12K
SomebodyData
SomebodyData
ExcelsisBerny
  • Locked
Revival of the Eternal Story [Phase 2] [Inferno (2 of 4)] | Many Worlds and Many Rules [Staff Votes: 3 - 0] [ACCEPTED]
Replies
30
Views
5K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
Ovy7
  • Locked
Umineko Tier Revision Remake - Part 1
Replies
31
Views
19K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Gonzalo
Beatrice minor addition
Replies
2
Views
2K
Gonzalo
Gonzalo
Back
Top