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What Tier is Frost and Botamo going to be at?

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HokageMangaVox said:
KaenDragneel123 said:
Penguinkingpin said:
Uh...To put some perspective in this, in the most recent episodes, the only reason that Frost beat Goku and Piccolo, is that he had a concealed poisoned blade on his person and that he was evil much like Frieza, so he may end up at the same tier as Frieza.
Not really, even without poison
He was a challenge for both
No, he wans't Goku confirmed to Beerus that he went normal SSJ on him because he thought it was enough, and Piccolo almost defeated him with his intellect and strategy. Frost cheated.
Yes, and Vados said that Frost, wasn't exactly the nicest person, and that his personality was much like Frieza's and if that's the case, he wouldn't be above cheating.
 
Pikachu942 said:
We all agree though that Piccolo more or less is equal to Final Form Frost though, correct? Because that's where I see him as. He only lost cuz of the Poison Needle, it was clear he had Frost beat.
uh no Goku said Piccolo is weaker than frost iirc and the only reason Piccolo almost one was him charging his Special beam cannon for so long
 
Canis Latrans2 said:
Pikachu942 said:
We all agree though that Piccolo more or less is equal to Final Form Frost though, correct? Because that's where I see him as. He only lost cuz of the Poison Needle, it was clear he had Frost beat.
uh no Goku said Piccolo is weaker than frost iirc and the only reason Piccolo almost one was him charging his Special beam cannon for so long
Yeah, Frost even moved so fast Piccolo could barely react, while the top tiers could see it normally... Piccolo has gotten stronger (likely 4-B, maybe a bit higher), but his SPC ignores durability, that's why his attack was able to pierce the arena shield (which iirc was stated to adapt to the fighters' power, when Champa attacked it, it was adpated to Champa's level, but when Frost was fighting, it was adapted to his own power... and Piccolo pierced it, meaning that attack was powerful enough to kill Frost).
 
Alexcar3000 said:
Canis Latrans2 said:
Pikachu942 said:
We all agree though that Piccolo more or less is equal to Final Form Frost though, correct? Because that's where I see him as. He only lost cuz of the Poison Needle, it was clear he had Frost beat.
uh no Goku said Piccolo is weaker than frost iirc and the only reason Piccolo almost one was him charging his Special beam cannon for so long
Yeah, Frost even moved so fast Piccolo could barely react, while the top tiers could see it normally... Piccolo has gotten stronger (likely 4-B, maybe a bit higher), but his SPC ignores durability, that's why his attack was able to pierce the arena shield (which iirc was stated to adapt to the fighters' power, when Champa attacked it, it was adpated to Champa's level, but when Frost was fighting, it was adapted to his own power... and Piccolo pierced it, meaning that attack was powerful enough to kill Frost).
So, what tier are we going to consider Frost? IMO, 4-A.
 
Well thing is Frost still laid a beating on base Goku, who is remarked by krillin and gohan I believe to be more powerful than when he fought Beerus in the RoF arc when they sense his base forms power as he fights final form Frieza, and did punch out a large energy ball attack in base form that was Universal in the Beerus fight as well. Also it would make no sense for Goku's base form to not improve similarly when his MSSJ form did, it's not like he is using god ki in either form to change the boost.

So base form Goku is at least 3B tbh considering all that. The fact Frost not only beat base form down but took dozens of hits from MSSJ form and pierced his skin with a strike and needle like thing imo just shows he is at least 3B as well, especially considering the size of the tier. Goku could be 1000 times stronger and Frost would still be 3B.

As for Piccolo he can also take shots from Frost and dodge many of his attacks, even hold him in place with the strength of his arm, and Frost admits his charged SBC could have beaten him. As well Piccolo does pierce Vados barrier, which can stand up to punishment from Goku's attacks at least as a base and MSSJ form. So imo Piccolo would also be at least 3B, although I do see how it is a massive power jump, we get those sometimes and it is nothing new for DB.

Even Botamo could at least somewhat keep up with base Goku and was somewhat of a threat, so could at least hurt him and would be at least 3B to pull that off, even if at a lower level of it.

Just my two cents on the battles so far, I don't see how we could put guys that can take on Goku, even in base, as well as shots from MSSJ form as being only 4B or 4A.
 
^Because that's exactly what is going to happen to Uub, as that fight still takes place after the events of Super.

if Uub isn't getting scaled up to the 3s by hurting base Goku for a moment, neither should Frost.
 
SomeGuyIDunno said:
^Because that's exactly what is going to happen to Uub, as that fight still takes place after the events of Super.

if Uub isn't getting scaled up to the 3s by hurting base Goku for a moment, neither should Frost.
We have no idea how much power Goku used against Uub, he was only trying to draw out his power, not beat him, and we don't know how powerful Uub actually is either, it's not like Uub beat base Goku or forced MSSJ form from him indicating he was to much for base form. Goku wanted to beat Frost and thought he had to use MSSJ on him, and even then Frost was winning against base Goku, took hits from him in MSSJ and could at least somewhat fight against him. So I don't see the scenario as similar tbh.
 
TakatoBlue said:
Frost >= Base Goku >>>> Piccolo.
Piccolo will bet on Special Bean Cannon ...

Special Bean Cannon is like Kienzan = Almost ignores physical durability.

Also, Goku let Frost tired.

For now, I think Frost could be tier "at least 3-C".

Idk, but I think current Base Goku >= SSG Goku (BoG arc)
This makes the most sense to me since Special Beam Cannon is one of those moves that can damage higher level opponents like Raditz's superior durability stats, the only problem is it takes long to charge but it unleashes a much stronger attack which is how it broke through Vados' barrier and would've killed Frost
 
So Vegeta apparently just went SSJ and Oneshot Frost casually out of the ring....

yeah, definitely not 3 tier. Megetta( the robot) however is the whole damn show.
 
it really annoyies me that people dont understand, that even if frost was a million times weaker that BASE goku hed still be 3-B...

The 3-B category is just too large
 
3-C Botamo

3-B minimum or 3-A Frost

Base Goku is At least 3-B or 3-A on my opinion.

Why The last attack by Beerus and goku was universal. The energy formed was equivalent to the beam clash b/w SSG Goku and Beerus (which would've destroyed the universe). The attack also again illuminated the Kaioshin Realm, just like the previous attack. So yeah, Base Goku punched a universal+ attack. ´╗┐

Rewatch the episode. It wasn't stated explicitly, but the attack had similar properties to the beam clash b/w God Goku and Beerus. Oh, and Goku (SSG absorbed) was stronger than SSG, as seen by statements, and Beerus was putting out more power (holding back, but more power than before)
 
I would still say 3-C, maybe 3-B for Botamo & First Form Frost, 3-B for Assault Frost and Piccolo, and At Least 3-B for Final Form Frost.
 
Again, Goku and Vegeta only used their regular Super Saiyan forms against these characters. We do not know for certain how powerful they are in this state, just how powerful they are in Super Saiyan God states. Hence, the characters in question have to be placed at "Unknown" ratings.
 
Antvasima said:
Again, Goku and Vegeta only used their regular Super Saiyan forms against these characters. We do not know for certain how powerful they are in this state, just how powerful they are in Super Saiyan God states. Hence, the characters in question have to be placed at "Unknown" ratings.
I thought that's what it was they used regular super saiyain, not super saiyan with god ki.
 
Antvasima said:
Again, Goku and Vegeta only used their regular Super Saiyan forms against these characters. We do not know for certain how powerful they are in this state, just how powerful they are in Super Saiyan God states. Hence, the characters in question have to be placed at "Unknown" ratings.
Can't Frost be scaled from Piccolo? Also Monaka should be put at Unknown. This weeks chapter brought a lot of questions and a possibility that Monaka is a Joke character. As Whis stated and Beerus denied.
 
I thought that's what it was they used regular super saiyain, not super saiyan with god ki.

I agree. Everyone could feel their Ki in the tournament. Unless everyone there had Godly Ki? Am I missing something?
 
Antvasima said:
Again, Goku and Vegeta only used their regular Super Saiyan forms against these characters. We do not know for certain how powerful they are in this state, just how powerful they are in Super Saiyan God states. Hence, the characters in question have to be placed at "Unknown" ratings.
Ant we actually do know how powerful they are in super sayain it was stated in bog arc that when goku lost his super sayain god form and reverted back to a super sayain he took the power and made it his own as such he didnt get any weaker when he lost his super sayain god form. So super sayain=super sayain god that much is known.
 
@HokageMangaVox not sure what the confusion is they are using regular super sayain but that super sayain is the same super sayain that after losing super sayain god in bog was felt by the z figthers on earth.Regular super sayain can be felt by mortals but beerus stated that goku made the god power his own and didnt get any weaker so ssj=ssg.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
Antvasima said:
Again, Goku and Vegeta only used their regular Super Saiyan forms against these characters. We do not know for certain how powerful they are in this state, just how powerful they are in Super Saiyan God states. Hence, the characters in question have to be placed at "Unknown" ratings.
Ant we actually do know how powerful they are in super sayain it was stated in bog arc that when goku lost his super sayain god form and reverted back to a super sayain he took the power and made it his own as such he didnt get any weaker when he lost his super sayain god form. So super sayain=super sayain god that much is know.
But according the narrator the Super Saiyan (post SSG) is more powerful than the SSG.

666
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
@HokageMangaVox not sure what the confusion is they are using regular super sayain but that super sayain is the same super sayain that after losing super sayain god in bog was felt by the z figthers on earth.Regular super sayain can be felt by mortals but beerus stated that goku made the god power his own and didnt get any weaker so ssj=ssg.

I agree with this. But how can the Universe 6 fighter have God Ki? When Cabba doesn't even know that SSJ exits!?
 
HokageMangaVox said:
Celestial Pegasus said:
@HokageMangaVox not sure what the confusion is they are using regular super sayain but that super sayain is the same super sayain that after losing super sayain god in bog was felt by the z figthers on earth.Regular super sayain can be felt by mortals but beerus stated that goku made the god power his own and didnt get any weaker so ssj=ssg.
I agree with this. But how can the Universe 6 fighter have God Ki? When Cabba doesn't even know that SSJ exits!?
They really dont really need it they just need to be ridiculously strong with their normal ki.Regular super sayain goku is at a god level without god ki but thats because he had exposure to god ki but since magetta can give ssj vegeta a good fight i really dont think god ki is that big a deal all it really does is give you a huge boost in stats and the whole not being sense by mortals thing. To beat a god ki user you just need to be ridiculously powerful with your normal key or have some sort of hax ability.
 
@AllFiction it really doesnt matter whether ssj=/>ssg, ssg we know is multi-galaxy+ and the difference between that and universe level is massive you could probably be a million times stronger than a ssg and still be multi-galaxy+.
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
@AllFiction it really doesnt matter whether ssj=/>ssg, ssg we know is multi-galaxy+ and the difference between that and universe level is massive you could probably be a million times stronger than a ssg and still be multi-galaxy+.
base Goku destroyed an amount of energy superior to an amount of energy that was going to destroy the universe with a single punch. :p

Goku is Universal
 
Nothing in Goku's and Vegeta's tournament fights remotely indicate that the are of multi-galactic scale in regular Supr Saiyan forms. Not does it make sense for Piccolo to have suddenly turned that powerful after limited training, and he almost mstched Frost. In addition, Monaca appears to be a joke character, and should get Unknown ratings as well.
 
Antvasima said:
Nothing in Goku's and Vegeta's tournament fights remotely indicate that the are of multi-galactic scale in regular Supr Saiyan forms. Not does it make sense for Piccolo to have suddenly turned that powerful after limited training, and he almost mstched Frost. In addition, Monaca appears to be a joke character, and should get Unknown ratings as well.
I feel the scaling is confusing as well but we cant just ignore statements that placed ssj goku at ssg tier.If we went by the logic that they dont have the feats to indicate they are on such a level then we could also have to say that golden frieza isnt multi-galaxy because he never showed any multi-galaxy feats but we know he is because he was stronger than ssgss goku who is stronger than ssg goku which is multi-galaxy.Same thing here ssj=ssg as to how exactly it scales to these characters is confusing.
 
Here is what i think piccolo shoudnt be upgraded as he fought a weakened frost,as for frost himself he was stronger than base goku but ssj goku was stronger than him so he isnt multi-galaxy level.How strong is base goku though i think gets confusing in the movies it made it seem base>ssg thats the whole sayain beyond god thing but in the series there was never any mention of that to my knowledge goku did destroy that energy ball with his and beerus energy in base form but i think that should be labelled as an inconsistency as it doesnt make sense for a base goku to destroy something created by beerus and his super sayain self.So i think base goku is at least stronger than buu saga characters.But thats still solar system level as base but super sayain is a 50x base increase in power and that wouldnt bring him to multi-galaxy level not even close.Hmm alright so either goku`s super sayain form boost got a massive boost because of the whole absorbing the god power thing or it doesnt make sense for his base to be that low and it has to be multi-galaxy level in which case, frost is multi-galaxy because he is stronger than base goku but piccolo would then also have to be upgrade.Frost was weakened from fighting goku but still the difference in power should have allowed him to one shot piccolo anyway.Either way i think the whole piccolo even being able to stand up to frost for a second is inconsistent as it doesnt match with his previous showings and he didnt do anything to get that powerful.
 
Antvasima said:
Nothing in Goku's and Vegeta's tournament fights remotely indicate that the are of multi-galactic scale in regular Supr Saiyan forms. Not does it make sense for Piccolo to have suddenly turned that powerful after limited training, and he almost mstched Frost. In addition, Monaca appears to be a joke character, and should get Unknown ratings as well.
Well, Goku's SSJ form is the same as his SSG form, as he absorbed the entire God ki as he saw in episode 14. However, SSJ Vegeta one shotted Frost and SSJ Goku was toying with Frost, so neither Frost and Piccolo can scale from current SSJ Goku. Current SSJ Goku is not the same as DBZ SSJ Goku. As for base Goku, we have no idea how strong he is. But SSG is a massive power up anyway

If you're wondering why their attacks aren't creating the devastating shockwave, it was explained in episode 13 that Goku and Beerus can control collateral damage while fighting, that explains why the planet isn't being destroyed in the tournament.


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and here comes the problems with the lack of DB's follow-up feats.. this one is particularly harder due to their new power in old forms being weaker than their previous top form.

I dunno what to do with them besides the unpopular decision of unknown, but I fear that we will still get no feats later on in typical Toriyama fashion
 
@Faisal yea pretty much what i was saying,i am gonna go off my first conclusion base goku>buu saga characters so base goku=solar system level.Ssj goku=ssg which is multi-galaxy,ssj goku=multi-galaxy. Frost is stronger than base goku got beat by ssj goku,frost=solar system level and piccolo remains large star level.
 
LordAizenSama said:
and here comes the problems with the lack of DB's follow-up feats.. this one is particularly harder due to their new power in old forms being weaker than their previous top form.
I dunno what to do with them besides the unpopular decision of unknown, but I fear that we will still get no feats later on in typical Toriyama fashion
The reason why many people dislike the powerscaling abuse in Dragon Ball. Plenty of characters get boosted to high levels without any feats. I understand the feel man
 
Celestial Pegasus said:
@Faisal yea pretty much what i was saying,i am gonna go off my first conclusion base goku>buu saga characters so base goku=solar system level.Ssj goku=ssg which is multi-galaxy,ssj goku=multi-galaxy. Frost is stronger than base goku got beat by ssj goku,frost=solar system level and piccolo remains large star level.
That could work I guess. Solar system tier is huge anyway
 
Another problem with the apparently unknown power of SSJ Goku and Vegeta is that there were fighting on an arena, the size and rules could limit there power and speed due that they should avoid leave the arena
 
Anyway, given the lack of feats I'm really not that interested into upgrading any character. However Monaka is fine, Beerus seemed legitimately scared of him last episode. Whether that's false alert can be found in later episodes. ATM, his hype is justified I think

As for other U6 fighters and Piccolo, I don't care much anymore. I would wait until we get proper galaxy level feats
 
Well, if we get confirmation later on that Goku's and Vegeta's regular Super Saiyan form is equal or nearly equal to Super Saiyan God state, we can use it, but for the moment Piccolo matched Frost, and Vegeta is shown in serious danger from the heat of lava. So until then we have to place the tournament opponents at Unknown.

Also, I am tired of constantly having to repeat this, so I would appreciate if people would please stop bringing it up. Thank you.
 
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