We need to talk about Universal Energy Systems

[Antoniofer]

There's a misunderstanding, didn't suggest that supplies of the user relates to the potency of the attack, but rather, what I tried to point up is that a character performing two different attack casually does not mean that both attacks spells, as the nergy needed to execute both is negligible to how much supply the character have.

 

[KLOL506]

There's a misunderstanding, didn't suggest that supplies of the user relates to the potency of the attack, but rather, what I tried to point up is that a character performing two different attack casually does not mean that both attacks spells, as the nergy needed to execute both is negligible to how much supply the character have.

This could easily be covered under the character's attacks being more versatile in its uses, like Gilver said, now that I think about it.

 

[Antoniofer]

Well, to resume personal takes at this.

• I wouldn't scale a character's power to its other power just because they are supply by the same kind of energy, as the character may have different types of spells of techniques, with different costs, effects and damage, or even not having any harmful effect at all.
• I would scale one spell/technique in AP to other one if one all them require a greater cost of energy supply than the other and they are exclusive harmful/destructive spells/techniques, as my example from above, one spell may require a greater cost due additional effects like hax, speed, range, or any other one, even if that spell also have a damaging purpose.
• This other requeriment may be situation, but a character may specialize in one type of spell/technique, having higher AP with a group and lower other; let's say, a character that specialize in light magic but also have fire magic, if specialized in the first magic (for whatever reason) then you may expect damaging spells from light magic to be stronger from those of the fire magic, even if they consume the same amount of mana.

 

[KLOL506]

Well, to resume personal takes at this.

• I wouldn't scale a character's power to its other power just because they are supply by the same kind of energy, as the character may have different types of spells of techniques, with different costs, effects and damage, or even not having any harmful effect at all.

If they are implied to be so, I see no issue with it.

• I would scale one spell/technique in AP to other one if one all them require a greater cost of energy supply than the other and they are exclusive harmful/destructive spells/techniques, as my example from above, one spell may require a greater cost due additional effects like hax, speed, range, or any other one, even if that spell also have a damaging purpose.

Seems oddly hyper-specific to me honestly

• This other requeriment may be situation, but a character may specialize in one type of spell/technique, having higher AP with a group and lower other; let's say, a character that specialize in light magic but also have fire magic, if specialized in the first magic (for whatever reason) then you may expect damaging spells from light magic to be stronger from those of the fire magic, even if they consume the same amount of mana.

Again, it's oddly hyper-specific like the second example.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

@Mr._Bambu

More so that not it's not be default, but more like a character uses a different scroll or wand for each very specific spell, and each of those are capable of using a very different spell not linked in any way or form. I know it's a rare example to my knowledge, but I meant examples where it's absolutely exclusive to their object's power and not the character. And those are basically magic items anyone can pick up and use.

I actually meant to point out that your first criteria means a user cannot become more skilled- if you become more skilled at using the UES, and thus more powerful, it suddenly is not a UES. Though, rereading it, I think I misinterpreted what you said- you were trying to say that the usage of artifacts may imply that the user doesn't become more skilled/powerful, which would negate the UES thing.

If that is the case, I agree.

 

[KLOL506]

I actually meant to point out that your first criteria means a user cannot become more skilled- if you become more skilled at using the UES, and thus more powerful, it suddenly is not a UES. Though, rereading it, I think I misinterpreted what you said- you were trying to say that the usage of artifacts may imply that the user doesn't become more skilled/powerful, which would negate the UES thing.

If that is the case, I agree.

Yeah, in the case of magic wands they aren't necessarily connected by one singular power source like one would be with chakra or ki or the like.

 

[Antoniofer]

They are possibilities, as I said, few verses expand that much and limit simply to basic scaling rather than UES. Want to scale the the little energy blast to the city wiping sphere? Show proof beyond beyond both being created through; the guy the wiped the city with the a ki power enhanced its physical strength using ki as well? You have the proove that the enhancement boosted the character to city wiping levels instead of simply multiplying its strength by multiplied beyond both powers requiring ki. That would be the most simple.

 

[Urshani]

They are possibilities, as I said, few verses expand that much and limit simply to basic scaling rather than UES. Want to scale the the little energy blast to the city wiping sphere? Show proof beyond beyond both being created through; the guy the wiped the city with the a ki power enhanced its physical strength using ki as well? You have the proove that the enhancement boosted the character to city wiping levels instead of simply multiplying its strength by multiplied beyond both powers requiring ki. That would be the most simple.

I agree with you. I don't think it would make any sense to scale every attack to the strongest attack just because they have the same power system

 

[KLOL506]

I agree with you. I don't think it would make any sense to scale every attack to the strongest attack just because they have the same power system

Obviously you wouldn't scale all your base attacks to the strongest attack you have in your arsenal even with the existence of the same power system. It'd be like saying Goku's base scales to his SSB KKx20 Super Spirit Bomb at all times.

The main argument is that it would scale if the feats are done uber-casually with little to no exhaustion and it's not shown to be a trump-card move.

 

[Urshani]

Obviously you wouldn't scale all your base attacks to the strongest attack you have in your arsenal even with the existence of the same power system. It'd be like saying Goku's base scales to his SSB KKx20 Super Spirit Bomb at all times.

The main argument is that it would scale if the feats are done uber-casually with little to no exhaustion and it's not shown to be a trump-card move.

oh ok, but they should downscale by a bit

 

[KLOL506]

oh ok, but they should downscale by a bit

If the feat is done uber-casually and it's not an ultimate trump-card attack that leaves the character winded out/near death, I see no reason why they should downscale instead of scaling to the full value. If anything, the ultimate trump-card attack would be left as a separate statistic. Much like Kaguya's ETSB.

 

[Antoniofer]

A character attacking casually does not mean they are equally strong, a charatcer that is ftl can move at subsonic speed as casually moving at supersonic speed, being casually is not a key from where character scales it just means the character is not throwing all its might. So even if the light blast and the fire annihilation spells from the other examples are thwon casually, it does not really means anything beyond that both spells cost a negiglible effort or energy to execute.

 

[KLOL506]

A character attacking casually does not mean they are equally strong, a charatcer that is ftl can move at subsonic speed as casually moving at supersonic speed, being casually is not a key from where character scales it just means the character is not throwing all its might. So even if the light blast and the fire annihilation spells from the other examples are thwon casually, it does not really means anything beyond that both spells cost a negiglible effort or energy to execute.

character breathes/muscle-flexes universe into existence

character then is shown to exert more effort into physical attacks

No.

Also, light blasts and fireballs again? This is just being hyper-specific for the sake of being hyper-specific. Maybe leave that for a verse that actually has this "light-based attack and fire-based attack" concept you're talking about?

 

[Antoniofer]

Was specific enough, but I was refering scaling between the casual attacks, not attacks that are obviosly stronger.

 

[KLOL506]

Was specific enough, but I was refering scaling between the casual attacks, not attacks that are obviosly stronger.

I honestly fail to fathom a situation where you can't scale to blowing up a sun by casually snapping/blowing it out of existence. It'd be absurd to assume that their punch wouldn't use the same amount of energy as the snap/blowing air even with a power source.

 

[Antoniofer]

To be more clear, casual light blast does not scale to casual fire annihilation, as casual character is not a key that can be scaled.

 

[KLOL506]

To be more clear, casual light blast does not scale to casual fire annihilation, as casual character is not a key that can be scaled.

Again, light blast and fire annihilation being in the same sentence like this is just being too overtly-specific. Maybe bring it up in a verse where it is actually a thing instead of generalizing it as a whole?

 

[Antoniofer]

The entire point of this thread is expanding the rules about UES, no use of talking about a specific verse, as no all verse work under the same principles. And is not that specific, really, one attack has showed to be far more destructive than other, if you want to scale one to the other, you would need proof beyond simply both powwer being magic/ki based, neither both attacks being executed casually is valid proof.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm more inclined to agree with KLOL here

 

[KLOL506]

The entire point of this thread is expanding the rules about UES, no use of talking about a specific verse, as no all verse work under the same principles. And is not that specific, really, one attack has showed to be far more destructive than other, if you want to scale one to the other, you would need proof beyond simply both powwer being magic/ki based, neither both attacks being executed casually is valid proof.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with the last part I'm afraid.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The entire point of this thread is expanding the rules about UES, no use of talking about a specific verse, as no all verse work under the same principles. And is not that specific, really, one attack has showed to be far more destructive than other, if you want to scale one to the other, you would need proof beyond simply both powwer being magic/ki based, neither both attacks being executed casually is valid proof.

We don't go around rating each and every kick, punch, fireball and light blast just because they'd be different.

Or no user would remain on this site if we are so overly skeptical.

We already have examples on this CRT which work similarly in many ways.....they may have differences...but still similar.
You just seem to be vague....how are we supposed to visualise what you are explaining and whether its even relevant in first place.

 

[KLOL506]

We don't go around rating each and every kick, punch, fireball and light blast just because they'd be different.

Or no user would remain on this site if we are so overly skeptical.

We already have examples on this CRT which work similarly in many ways.....they may have differences...but still similar.
You just seem to be vague....how are we supposed to visualise what you are explaining and whether its even relevant in first place.

Once again, you hammer the nail on the head.

 

[Antoniofer]

...So from what I understand here, you would be confortable scaling, let's say, a 5 meter wide flamethrower attack to a light blast to engulf and destroy a city, with no further proof beyond both attacks being generated through magic/ki/whatever sources, casual or not, is that right?

 

[KLOL506]

...So from what I understand here, you would be confortable scaling, let's say, a 5 meter wide flamethrower attack to a light blast to engulf and destroy a city, with no further proof beyond both attacks being generated through magic/ki/whatever sources, casual or not, is that right?

Once again, horrible horrible analogy. We're talking about universes being poofed up into existence here by muscle-flexing and scaling that to one using similar or more effort to attack. And here you're talking about flamethrowers and cities. And light attacks.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I mean you might be treading on AoE fallcy?

AP could be same despite AOE....Dragonball comes to mind.
In GT for whatever reason Golden Ape can breathe fire, I bet Baby Vegeta would be just as threatened by it as much as ki blast capable of destroying planet by mere collateral.

..So from what I understand here, you would be confortable scaling, let's say, a 5 meter wide flamethrower attack to a light blast to engulf and destroy a city, with no further proof beyond both attacks being generated through magic/ki/whatever sources, casual or not, is that right?

 

[Stefano4444]

We don't go around rating each and every kick, punch, fireball and light blast just because they'd be different.

Exactly, it would be beyond absurd if we start to give the characters a tier for each attack/technique/ability.

 

[Antoniofer]

OP does not mention anything about universe destruction, so I had no reason to make an example about the subject. The examples I give can be any, instead of a 5 meters flamethrower it could be a mansion busting, and instead of a city boosting attack, it could be just an skyscraper, there's no difference. But if you want me to say that if someone snap his fingers and destroy the universe with magic, and then goes berserk an spam a bunch of destructive magical blast, I have reason to believe the blasts are stronger than the snap (of course, as long is consistent). But if a character casually snap the universe, and then casually perform other harmful attack, I have no reason both attacks should scale, as casual is not a key to be scaled.

Plus, aoe fallacy is another theme completely different from UES, as that is an scaling issue.

 

[RatherClueless]

Um, btw, I never said I wont comment here again. I'll just wait for a more or less final draft to give another opinion about it.

 

[KLOL506]

Um, btw, I never said I wont comment here again. I'll just wait for a more or less final draft to give another opinion about it.

Very well. We can accept that.

 

[KatBoi69]

Can someone summarize the sticking point we've hit?

 

[KLOL506]

OP does not mention anything about universe destruction, so I had no reason to make an example about the subject. The examples I give can be any, instead of a 5 meters flamethrower it could be a mansion busting, and instead of a city boosting attack, it could be just an skyscraper, there's no difference.

Kinda is a difference if you choose to be hyper-specific about it like this.

But if a character casually snap the universe, and then casually perform other harmful attack, I have no reason both attacks should scale, as casual is not a key to be scaled.

Yeah no, disagree with this. This is literally no different than the previous example where you mention that you'd be fine with a dude casually snapping a universe away and then unleashing destructive blasts, it'd be absurd to assume that the character would proceed to unleash harmful attacks any weaker than his casual universe snap. This is just delving into semantics and extreme nitpicking at this point.

 

[KLOL506]

Can someone summarize the sticking point we've hit?

Well, our UES guidelines draft is still in the works but me and Hellbeast were considering adding the "exhaustion" bit into the guidelines and removing it from the Creation Feats page but then that creates a situation where people may enter into confusion regarding scaling Creation feats in that manner.

Antoniofer seems to have issues with using "uber-casualness" as a valid reason to scale such feats to physicals, towards which I have expressed my disagreement.

 

[Damage3245]

Dang, this thread was only posted yesterday and it's four pages deep already.

 

[KLOL506]

Dang, this thread was only posted yesterday and it's four pages deep already.

Many mistakes were made along the way. This was bound to happen sooner or later.

 

[KatBoi69]

Yeah no, disagree with this. This is literally no different than the previous example where you mention that you'd be fine with a dude casually snapping a universe away and then unleashing destructive blasts, it'd be absurd to assume that the character would proceed to unleash harmful attacks any weaker than his casual universe snap.

Yeah, if the two feats were against the same opponent in the same fight, I don't see a reason why you wouldn't assume the fire blast scales to the universe destruction if they were both moves made against the opponent.

On the other hand, if the feats happened vs. different enemies or maybe the universe snap was non-combat, I'd think the feats could give scaling for the caster to other characters, but the moves wouldn't necessarily scale to each other.

This seems like it would be an extremely rare sticking point and may just need to be something people sort out on their own in debate threads.

 

[Antoniofer]

Can someone summarize the sticking point we've hit?

In short I simply suggested to not scale spells/techniques to others merely cuz they are based in magic/ki, as several there can be several spells/techniques with diffent effects and costs; I agree with spells/techniques scaling to other assuming they have damaging/destructive effects if they consume the same or higher amount ofenergy to execute it, however, is also possible for a character to enhance thespell in other aspect except damage, like increasing speed, addinghax or any other,in which they do not necessary scale to each other. Also suggested to not scale spells/techniques if they are casually, as casually is not a "from/transfomartion" of a character,and not all casual feats are as fast/powerful just cuz they are casual.

 

[Damage3245]

We don't go around rating each and every kick, punch, fireball and light blast just because they'd be different.

Or no user would remain on this site if we are so overly skeptical.

Not every single attack is different or should be rated differently, but contextually some techniques are specified as more powerful than others; or visually can be a depicted to be quite different. If one attack vaporizes a tree for example but they use another attack that vaporizes a forest in the same fight.

In short I simply suggested to not scale spells/techniques to others merely cuz they are based in magic/ki, as several there can be several spells/techniques with diffent effects and costs; I agree with spells/techniques scaling to other assuming they have damaging/destructive effects if they consume the same or higher amount ofenergy to execute it, however, is also possible for a character to enhance thespell in other aspect except damage, like increasing speed, addinghax or any other,in which they do not necessary scale to each other. Also suggested to not scale spells/techniques if they are casually, as casually is not a "from/transfomartion" of a character,and not all casual feats are as fast/powerful just cuz they are casual.

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[Antoniofer]

Yeah no, disagree with this. This is literally no different than the previous example where you mention that you'd be fine with a dude casually snapping a universe away and then unleashing destructive blasts, it'd be absurd to assume that the character would proceed to unleash harmful attacks any weaker than his casual universe snap. This is just delving into semantics and extreme nitpicking at this point.

Consider the following, there's a god of magic, casually created the universe with a big bang through magic. One day decides to punish a city for their blasphemies and casually send a meteor through magic, destroying the city; and other day decide to punish a corrupt priest by casually using magic to summon a lightning. Can you prove that the lightning is as strong as the meteor, or the meteor as strong as the big bang created by the magic god?

 

[KLOL506]

In short I simply suggested to not scale spells/techniques to others merely cuz they are based in magic/ki, as several there can be several spells/techniques with diffent effects and costs; I agree with spells/techniques scaling to other assuming they have damaging/destructive effects if they consume the same or higher amount ofenergy to execute it,

Contradicting because you said you have no problem scaling people physically to universe-snapping if they shoot destructive magic blasts and then you say that you have a problem with doing the same for people who use it in their other attacks while assuming they'd hold back in that regard.

however, is also possible for a character to enhance the spell in other aspect except damage, like increasing speed, addinghax or any other,in which they do not necessary scale to each other.

Once again, this is entering "hyper-specific territory which would already be addressed in verse-specific CRTs.

Also suggested to not scale spells/techniques if they are casually, as casually is not a "from/transfomartion" of a character,and not all casual feats are as fast/powerful just cuz they are casual.

Once again, I disagree, because it would be asinine to assume that a character would have any reason to hold back on their attacks even with their already uber-casual creation feat that they just did.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Not every single attack is different or should be rated differently, but contextually some techniques are specified as more powerful than others; or visually can be a depicted to be quite different. If one attack vaporizes a tree for example but they use another attack that vaporizes a forest in the same fight.

You misunderstand.

Klol already explained in-depth that we already rate different attacks with different ratings if there are vast differences between them, or scale beyond physicals.

Like Kaguya's ETSB.

This point was never a contention.