Wario "tanks" the destruction of the universe... but not really

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, I think DRB hammered the nail in the thread here, the Universe was formed via the same negative energy he got and only got stronger throughout the whole game given Wario's Greed.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

So unanimous decision to pull down the durability "feat" but it seems that Black Jewel stays at it's current tier regardless.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

So unanimous decision to pull down the durability "feat" but it seems that Black Jewel stays at it's current tier regardless.

I’d say that’s a fair conclusion

 

[AKM sama]

It seems there is unanimous agreement to remove the durability justification. However, there is one thing I want cleared regarding the other issue.

From the Creation Feats page:

In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat.

Meaning,
1. Black Jewel's reality warping should be connected to his eye laser, for example. (Please don't say they are both done with his eye so they are connected. Almost every humanoid can warp reality and shoot energy from their hands, that doesn't mean they are connected. Connected here means that the universal energy system should be same. For example, there is ki in Dragon Ball, Chakra in Naruto, and the example in the quoted text, etc.)
So my question here is, what's the universal energy system being used here?

2. If they are coming from the same energy pool, then the level of energy being used for the eye laser should be comparable or greater than the level of energy being used for the reality warping. (This is not confirmed by any statement here, so all we have are visual cues.)
My issue here is the visual cue that implies the reality warping done at the start was visibly shown expending more energy than the eye laser that hardly takes any effort to shoot.

 

[SamanPatou]

On top of what AKM said, would the feat actually be Low 2-C? The website states that the Jewel turned Wario's basement into a parallel universe, but to me it seems a very weak reason to assume the Jewel created an entirely new space-time from scratch, instead of just warping said basement in a different way.

Then, this would be a 3-A warping is we assume the Jewel warped the place to have the size of an actual universe, which afaik we don't know for sure.
If we take a look at the game locations we could have a much more safer way to gauge the level and range of the Jewel's RW hax, which could be anywhere from tier 5 to tier 4 depending on stuff like the stars in the sky etc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I was one of the main people who assisted DontTalkDT in mentioning the Universal energy systems and what not, but the universal energy system isn't just limited to Ki or Chakra, but verses like Digimon uses "Data" as its universal energy source. And various Empathy based energy sources can also fall into the category. It can also consist of the verse or character treating them as subpowers of a much more universal power than.

The Universal power source here is Greed. He is empowered by Wario's greed to create the parallel universe and does so instantly; meaning it's a casual feat and thus contextually something that would scale to other powers that make use of this Negative energy called Greed. And his lasers are done when he's stronger than he's ever been and a highly concentrated laser meant to be dangerous; and considerably his most powerful attacks would upscale accordingly from the creation feat.

Also, Universe is often very loosely presented with variable meanings yeah, but a Parallel "Dimension" would imply it's a body of space; not an Observable Universe in a quilted multiverse. And Parallel Universe is a mirror universe meant to mimic the size and appearance in some aspects. And it's not a heaven or hell sort of thing, though it's loosely a pocket universe. Now that I think about it, it could be 3-A due to lack of full details. Though, parallel universes are usually Low 2-C outright if they're different bodies of space. But it could be more like what the Dark World is to Light World for another verse. Which for that, I thought At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C seemed reasonable for those.

 

[AKM sama]

Fair on the greed thing.

create the parallel universe and does so instantly; meaning it's a casual feat

Not necessarily. Universe creation is always instantaneous if it is to be treated as 3-A/Low 2-C. It being done in an instant doesn't mean it is casual, especially when the character could be using their max power for creation, but not for other attacks (which looks to be the case here).

And his lasers are done when he's stronger than he's ever been

I think we agreed to not assume he got stronger or weaker when there is no indication of it. The only thing we know is that he was chock-full of power in the very start of the game, due to Wario's greed. Since then, there seems to be no mention of him gaining energy from other people.

Saman brings up a valid point. From the description in the guidebook, he did not create an entirely new body of space and time. He just warped the existing space in Wario's basement to make it a parallel universe, which would mean he did not have to create a new body of time, since time already exists there.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

As Dino also mentioned above, creating a large body from a small body would still mean the end result takes full priority, if someone formed an entire planet by throwing a pebble, they'd still be considered planet level. And he also warps the same dimension many times throughout the series. Also, he didn't drain all his power when he created the parallel universe, meaning he'd still have more than enough. Actually, I recall Dino also stating that Wario's greed kept fueling him; and I doubt the Jewel would purposely drain all his power just to warp the final arena if it took that much out of him, and logically the attacks he would use to destroy his biggest enemy would be the stuff he puts more effort into. Having a lower area of effect isn't evidence that there's not as much energy put into it; it just means there's more precision put into it. Transforming a castle basement into a parallel universe is still just making his basement a portal but still creating the space to have all those starry skies and such. Most importantly, it still says Universe.

But I'm fine with it being a 3-A feat as opposed to Low 2-C.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with a 3-A adjustment.

 

[AKM sama]

And he also warps the same dimension many times throughout the series. Also, he didn't drain all his power when he created the parallel universe, meaning he'd still have more than enough.

Yes, but it would still be reality warping. And no, I am not claiming that he drained all of his power.

Actually, I recall Dino also stating that Wario's greed kept fueling him

I'll wait for Dino to provide evidence on this first, and come back to this later if said evidence is provided.

and logically the attacks he would use to destroy his biggest enemy would be the stuff he puts more effort into

This is not something he is shown to be doing though. The reality warping done at the start was visibly shown expending more energy than the eye laser that hardly takes any effort to shoot. So he is either not doing that for some reason, or isn't capable of. Fiction doesn't follow logic most of the time, so we have to go with what's actually happening, instead of what logically should have happened.

 

[AKM sama]

This red sparkles stuff is purely headcanon as nothing indicates they're the source or indicator of it's power, as I've shown by Black Jewel warping the realm without those sparkles being present before you fight him, and the fact Wario gets thrown back shows it had physical force too.

I missed this earlier so I'll address this. Later when he warps the world, he isn't shown that he is destroying the entirety of the realm, as opposed to the first time when he is shown to create the entirety of it. In the video you linked, he only changes the color of the sky and destroys the nearby structures with his warping. That's not the reality warping equivalent of creating an entire universe.

And yeah, Wario gets thrown back. There is obviously some physical force involved since he ended up ruining the castle in his initial creation, but it isn't universal.

 

[AKM sama]

Also, Universe is often very loosely yeah, but a Parallel "Dimension" would imply it's a body of space; not an Observable Universe in a quilted multiverse.

Also, this caught my eye just now. Can you get into more detail regarding what you mean by "universe" being used loosely. It's a European website, so I am not sure how authentic the information is. But if it is simply a dimension as opposed to an observable universe, then it should be rated by what we can see in it. I can at least see stars and sun, I think.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Loosely variable with different meanings between Observable Universe, Dimensional Universe, and the Timeline. Ultima brings stuff like that all the time when he's available.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I don't mind it being 3-A either but if the reason is mainly due to the belief that the Black Jewel only warped Wario's basement into the universe, it's definitely not the case, otherwise Wario wouldn't be so upset that his castle was gone in the first place. We even seen him on the top floor while the Black Jewel is at the bottom. I believe what they meant is the feat happened within the basement.

 

[AKM sama]

Quite true, Dino. We can see in the game that the entire castle was destroyed and he did not only warp the basement. And even after the game, the Spritelings only mentioned that the castle was destroyed and not anything else. So the way I see it, there is contradictory information present in that European website (which I think doesn't even exist anymore to fact check it), and its use should be dismissed according to the canon rules. We most definitely cannot use a statement that is obviously false and doesn't get its facts right, just because it has the word "parallel universe" in it, when we can't even find it anymore.

There seems to be a better source available. This is a manual of the game which is consistent with the game and tells us only what is in it, without adding any extra questionable tidbit.

It clearly states that it was Wario's world that was warped to create Black Jewel's kingdom. "Wario's world" is a loose term because he is greedy and his world to him seems to be his lovely beloved castle that he just finished, implied by him going on and on about how lovely everything in his beloved castle is.

Apart from the Spritelings who were only concerned with the ruined castle and not anything else, even Wario here states that his castle is being affected and we get no mention of anything else.

Another bigger issue is that the warped world created by Black Jewel is not a real world, as it doesn't quite follow the standards of creation.

This sky has night and day at the same time, evidencing that this sky is not real, and just a cool background. Which puts a question mark on the entire feat. When the sky, stars, sun, etc. are not real, we can't assume it is an entire real life-like universe.

Based on all of this information, to determine how big the warped world of Black Jewel is, we should only go by what we know, which appears to be this:

 

[Ogbunabali]

Another bigger issue is that the warped world created by Black Jewel is not a real world, as it doesn't quite follow the standards of creation.

This sky has night and day at the same time, evidencing that this sky is not real, and just a cool background. Which puts a question mark on the entire feat. When the sky, stars, sun, etc. are not real, we can't assume it is an entire real life-like universe.

Almost impossible to argue against this. The sky is literally shown to be a firmament type of thing and not the vastness of space. Unless there is some extremely specific quote/feat of them traveling to a star in the distance or something, this isn't a universal or even a 4-A creation.

 

[LuckyEmile]

information present in that European website (which I think doesn't even exist anymore to fact check it)

The website is still available, here is the link: https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Games/Nintendo-GameCube/Wario-World-269336.html
(even if the plan was to disregard it, I guess it's useful to at least know if does still exist)

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

First of all, nothing is implied the world is fake nor the celestial bodies are. Using the sky isn't valid as the reason it was like that to begin with is due to being twilight or, more likely, the Black Jewel warped Wario's World, giving it abnormal properties hence why both sources described it to be "weird" and "bizarre", not fake. I looked up the requirements of creation feats, nothing is stated that the stars or sun can not co-exists. The only contradiction to both sources is the fact they said the warped the basement, which isn't even a major one since the point is that the Black Jewel reality warped the entire world into a universe unnatural to the one that Wario's resides in.

Second, if you read the manual carefully, there are TWO perspectives of the story written on the manual. One from Wario's and one from the narration. The information about Wario's World being altered was from the narration perspective, which is direct, straightforward, and reliable compared to Wario's statements. So it's clearly not hyperbolic. Just because Wario only cares about his castle, doesn't mean we should ignore other story details, especially the ones not provided by him.

 

[AKM sama]

The first obvious requirement is that it must be certain that an actual creation feat took place. If, for example, stars appear to have been created it must be certain that those aren't just minor light sources looking similar.

There isn't supposed to be a reason to imply they are fake. There is supposed to be a reason to imply they are real. The reason that implies they are real doesn't exist. And no, even in twilight the sky doesn't look like half night sky and half day sky and both sun and stars are not present together like that. So this is good reason to dismiss it. Now for your claim to hold ground, we need to prove that they're all real in spite of being all weird magical heavenly bodies in a bizarre sky background.

 

[Starter_Pack]

First of all, nothing is implied the world is fake nor the celestial bodies are. Using the sky isn't valid as the reason it was like that to begin with is because either it's twilight or, more likely, due to the Black Jewel warped Wario's World, giving it abnormal properties hence why both sources described it to be "strange" and "bizarre", not fake.

Nothing implies they're real, either. Like AKM said, this can easily just be an oddball sky that was created by the Black Jewel. There's no confirmation that those are even real stars if the validity of the sky itself is thrown into question.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

We are already given a reason for that. The Black Jewel just warped Wario's World into a bizarre universe. The "oddball" sky was simply meant to reflect that as all the levels Wario travels into throughout the game lacked this atheistic, debunking the fact it's a fake sky since the concept of separate nights and days does indeed exist in this world.

 

[AKM sama]

The Black Jewel just warped Wario's World into a bizarre universe.

As said above, the universe part comes from a technically incorrect statement from a Europen website, and since it isn't mentioned anywhere else, we can dismiss it. Game and manual take precedence here.

The "oddball" sky was simply meant to reflect that

You are admitting that the warped world is bizarre (even if it is a universe as you claim, it is a bizarre one, not an actual one), yet you are saying the stars and everything that is bizarre is real too. That's a contradiction. If it's bizarre, we have all the more reason to assume they are not real, hence bizarre.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that AKM makes sense here, especially with those new scans up above.

 

[Eficiente]

Late to say it but the feat would go on the potency of his transmutation, without necessarily going into other things.

I also find that the Creation Feats page saying that "Creation has to be connected to their other abilities" to scale to AP is kinda vague and too easily to be abused. Any creation feat on its own doesn't go as AP but then if it happens because of "magic/ki/spiritual energy/whatever thing with a name gives characters a certain set of super powers" then that alone does it to scale everyone's durability & every offensive attack to the Creation feat. Yeah they're all "connected" and done via the same thing that gives powers but that doesn't remove the fact that Creation may still be a specific, harmless technique other powers may not scale to and how they may also not be able to concentrate as much power in smaller targets.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

The incorrect statement is centered around where the feat is taken place, not the feat itself. It's an entirely different story if otherwise. And bizarre means unusual, not that it's fake. Regardless how you choose to interpret that, we already seen throughout all the levels Wario travelled into, there are proper night and day cycles, which goes against this very argument.

 

[AKM sama]

The incorrect statement is centered around where the feat is taken place, not the feat itself

Where the feat takes place is still information about the feat, and if that statement is incorrect, we have no reason to assume that statement is correct for the other thing, especially when nothing of the sort is mentioned anywhere else. This is a clear cut case where we dismiss these secondary material, and Mario is not going to be an exception here.

there are proper night and day cycles, which goes against this very argument

That only means the background changes. That doesn't at all refute that we see the night sky and day sky on the screen split in half which is more than enough visual evidence to conclude that it's not real. Especially when nothing points to it being real. This is again, according to the creation feats rule, easily dismissed. Very similar case like King Boo's dimension in the previous thread.

Accepting this would be a blatant violation of our rules. And since this seems to be going in circles at this point, I'll wait a bit to see if anything new comes up. For something as direct as this, which only needs an understanding of the site rules to evaluate, I'll say there is enough support already.

 

[Eficiente]

If there are proper night and day cycles then either

• the weird mix between the 2 still exists somewhere
• or the whole visible space got warped into being a proper night and day, which does sound like something a real universe like ours wouldn't have. There's little reason to believe that this visible world, sun and stars playfully crafted would be only part of the rest of the universe. What would the rest of the universe even be like?; More of the same for no one to see? Or like in our universe for no reason when what Wario saw wasn't like it?

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Except King Boo's is confirmed to be fake because it's was outright called an illusion and not any reality warping/creation power. The Black Jewel's feat does not because according to the rules of creation to be accepted:

1. The actual feat has to be taken place. (We've seen it happened in the intro. We seen again before the final battle and it disappeared with the Black Jewel.)

2. The objects must be physical in nature. (Unlike King Boo's realm, which is confirmed to be illusion, this isn't as it was properly elaborate to be a world created by the Black Jewel.)

3. Applying the character's capacity to harm the character (We learned that the reason the Black Jewel could do this is the first place is because of the negative energy gained selfish desires. In Wario's case, greed. This was the very reason he is able to do this to begin with. If it weren't for this and he just so happens to be a being with a reality warping feat, this argument would have been far more understandable. But with this, it complete debunks the fact he's using any other power beyond the aforementioned negative energy.)

4. Timeframe (All the aforementioned feats did occur in a very short frame)

Both statements and visual feats are all accounted for and straightforward and using the sky of the hubworld to refute everything the Black Jewel's world and calling it fake when we've been to other sections of the world having proper properties of the sky and dismiss it as being a background change, despite it taken place in the same world to begin with which debunks the fact it isn't a proper sky, is just denying a feat that properly follow the rules. This is a clear cut hard retraction and contradiction, rather than a violation.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If you really wanna be slick the Japanese names for the levels call them "worlds" and you enter them the same say you entered the World Black Jewel created, showing they are their own worlds far grander than the map makes it appear and may be separate.

 

[Seol404]

If you really wanna be slick the Japanese names for the levels call them "worlds" and you enter them the same say you entered the World Black Jewel created, showing they are their own worlds far grander than the map makes it appear and may be separate.

"Worlds" in Mario games can be smaller than a kingdom to bigger than a cluster of galaxies, being called worlds provides no evidence as to their size.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, I was on the thread when it was being discussed. Based on points brought up by Ultima Reality, Myself, Andy, and DontTalkDT, it is the logical assumption that a pocket reality or parallel universe that the stars in the sky are real stars in the sky. The "Prove they're real stars" refers more so to someone having a thrown room that looks like outerspace; which would most likely be wall painting in that case. Or a character can just wave their hand and a starry sky appears in the back ground; the logical assumption is illusions or teleports to space as opposed to creating a dimension.

But if it's confirmed body of space, everything logically resembles what they were in the real world. And if it literally says "Parallel Universe" than that alone answers everything about the stars being real or not. Also, I find it weird how something that's allegedly considered castle size contains multiple kingdoms, mountains, a big ocean, let alone all the cosmic stuff.

So yeah, I'm still with Dino here.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Regardless of what Tier this feat is it should be moved to Wario’s Wario Land Series key.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Here is current vote tally.

EDIT:

Completely agree with OP: AKM sama, Seol404, Armorchompy, TMaakkonen, Starter_Pack, Ogbunabali, SamanPatou, KingTempest, Eficiente, Damage3245, Cropfist

Disagree with removing the Creation feat: Dino_Ranger_Black, DarkDragonMedeus, GyroNutz, Foxthefox1000, Starsprite53

 

[Cropfist]

I agree with the original post.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Looking through the comments made here, I think Dino_Ranger_Black and DarkDragonMedeus make good points about the size of the world and energy source. If the world is noted to be bizarre, especially in the Mario/Wario franchise, I think that expecting realism is a bit silly. I think good points were made to defend the validity of the creation feat, so I likewise disagree with removing it. Likewise, the idea of Black Jewel using his full power (if not greater, due to all the greed he's been absorbing from Wario) in the final battle sounds reasonable to me. Whilst I feel the destruction feat at the end could still be valid, I guess we're beyond the point of bargaining on that.

 

[TMaakkonen]

If the argument is that World is bizarre which means expecting realism is bad in this scenario, then why argue that the bizarre feat is even scientifically universal? Using realism to calc the feat, but ignoring any realism that the feat doesn't work properly doesn't seem right.

 

[AKM sama]

The arguments have gone circular so this will be my last post. With all due respect, I'll make one more effort so that the people in disagreement can see the clear issues present here.

When different source materials give different versions of the same feat, and by that they contradict each other in the depiction of the feat, the primary canon takes precedence over the secondary canon.

The sentence in the European website from where the "parallel universe" statement comes from, is technically false. It only mentions that the basement was warped into another universe, while in the game and manual, we see that the entire castle was warped and destroyed. We also see no mention of anything claiming "universe" in neither the game nor the manual, both of which take precedence over a questionable statement from a European website. According to the standards, we dismiss said statement.

But it's clear the castle was warped into a bizarre world. And feats of creation took place. The entire resulting staging area of the game is most definitely real. But to ascertain the entire size of the world created, we look at the celestial bodies

The first obvious requirement is that it must be certain that an actual creation feat took place. If, for example, stars appear to have been created it must be certain that those aren't just minor light sources looking similar.

There exists zero proof in the game that any celestial body we see is an actual celestial body. No we don't expect realism, and that is exactly why we do expect some kind of proof. To say that "they are real celestial bodies but Black Jewel warped them in such a way that they look unreal" is a much bigger assumption and requires a hell lot more evidence than "it could be possible". Claiming that something is real in something unreal doesn't work.

On the contrary, while we have zero reason to assume they are actual celestial bodies, we do have some reason to say that they are just minor light sources in a cool looking background. The sky is literally shown to be a firmament type that has no resemblance to actuality and thus, clearly debunks the unfounded claims that they are real.

I think there is already enough support to carry on the with the edits accordingly.

• The questionable scan from the website should be replaced with either the video of the feat or the consistent and accurate manual.
• The creation should be downgraded to what we know is real. And that is the entire staging area. The tier should be adjusted accordingly, or according to the already established scaling.
• Wario's AP and durability justification should be changed accordingly.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I’ve applied the changes in accordance to AKM’s analysis.

 

[SamanPatou]

I also want to address something more about the supposed validity of the celestial bodies. Other than what has already been addressed about them not working as they should if they were real, we can see how they change once the Black Jewel is released at the end of the game. The sun of the main area turns black, the rainbow has its colors inverted and what appeared to be stars also turn into a dark-red color, along with the entirety of the sky.

Moreover, all the stages of the game are disconnected from the main area and even from each other, as Wario enters them through a teleport/wormhole-like sequence, and the sky of all those areas is entirely different from that of the main one. We see starry skies, giant moons and simple colored backgrounds, and some times no sky at all, just clouds or various scenarios, making the whole structure much more inconsistent than it was supposed to be, with the cycle day/night not even being real.

 

[AKM sama]

Not surprising because Black Jewel can reality warp. This goes to show that every stage has its own different background and none of it is consistent with each other, hence there is no single universe. Throwing another big question mark on the assumption that it is all a real universe.

Since the changes have been done, I am closing this thread.