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Wario "tanks" the destruction of the universe... but not really

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Since you reopened the thread, I am assuming you had some new evidence to show?
 
Black Jewel should have Transmutation for turning Wario's castle into a dimension, not just Reality Warping.
 
I’ll make sure Transmutation is added.

Anyway, Cal should’ve immediately presented his new evidence/arguments upon reopening this thread instead of just saying “creating a universe is universal” as if that would nullify all the arguments and analysis done here.

Edited: Added Transmutation
 
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One Black Jewel becoming a freak ton weaker because he’s not overflowing with energy isn’t how we do things. Two, since when is turning something into a literal universe solely a hax feat? Three, if the dimension didn’t collapse, how did Wario escape a dimension with no exits?
 
Oh dear.

Please tell me this group is just being ironic and we're not gonna get a "Mario should be downgraded to Tier 7" thread like haven't we been over this enough?

Anyways, I do think the thread was closed pretty abruptly.

I don't understand how one can literally be told the only references we have as to the size of these worlds is "universe" and think "well I don't believe it because look at all these weird properties of this suppoed universe" like??? That doesn't debunk it being a universe? If I made a parallel dimension of our reality where everything was made of candy it's still a uni feat regardless of how much logical sense the world makes. Nothing contradicts it being a universe. Nothing.

I don't see how it's only hax that doesn't scale to AP when Wario was physically effected by everything Black Jewel did, even the passive warping and destabilization of the world in the end and it's powered by the same energy source for everything with no proof it got weaker.

Literally why was this closed in the first place nothing of value was debunked and it continued to be arguments of incredulity being proposed when it got locked.

How about prove that "universe" can't be relied on or that it's contradictory? No, weird world physics and logic don't prove anything??? The site saying the basement was warped is technically still true. It is describing the events we see of the gamw where Black Jewel rises up in the basement and begins the creation there.

You still have yet to prove it's only hax not scalable to AP.

There is nothing of substance here so I do question why the hell it got locked in the first place.
 
I also want to point out "Changing Wario's World into a strange place" is noteworthy because in context you would think "Oh, maybe it's talking about the planet," but we see that there are stars in this new world Black Jewel created. Given the contextual evidence that this new world is made from Wario's World, we can then infer the stars are actually real and that Black Jewel's influence can indeed reach that far. With this in mind I highly doubt "Wario's World" is referring to only the nebula they're in, and more so backs up the universe claim as aside from the planet, which it couldn't be, "world" typically is used to refer to the universe after that.
 
@The_real_cal_howard Please read the entire thread, not just the OP, before opening a concluded thread. All the questions you have asked are already discussed and addressed.

@liluzivert Your only contribution here has been to derail the thread with out of context jokes and shitposts that you just randomly grabbed without knowing the context. If you (or anybody) have any questions regarding that, please message me and I'll be sure to respond and clear all doubts. Don't derail the thread. This is your last warning and if you continue I'll have to ban you from the thread. The fact that an admin gave you permission to do it in the first place is disappointing.

I will be deleting the derailing posts. And I don't intend this thread to end up being stonewalled by rehashing the same arguments again and again when there is already enough agreement regarding the conclusion.
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
I don't understand how one can literally be told the only references we have as to the size of these worlds is "universe" and think "well I don't believe it because look at all these weird properties of this suppoed universe" like??? That doesn't debunk it being a universe?
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This was already answered. The "universe" stuff comes from an European website which didn't even get its facts straight in the same sentence (stating that Black Jewel only warped the basement, when it warped the entire castle). If the information is wrong, we dismiss such secondary sources. The primary sources (game and manual) don't have any mention of any universe.

Plus the game literally contradicts there being one consistent "universe" as every stage has it's own different kind of background, meaning a different little world. And again, for claiming that the sky is real despite it being clearly a firmament type of thing, needs much more evidence to prove.

I have already gone in detail how this is against the canon and creation feats standards. And there was enough of an agreement. That's why this thread was applied and closed.

I understand that Cal had questions so he reopened the thread, but he should have done some reading before rehashing the same arguments.
 
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Cal clearly didn't read the whole thread, fully replying to the incomplete things he said would do the job he's expected to do by making him a summary.
liluzivert said:
And btw, I got permission from Cal to post this. So you can try and delete this again if you want, though I wouldn't advice it.
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That comment sincerely expresses a bad state of mind.

Why quote something unrelated and reply sarcastically? That's not constructively replying to something you disagree with, just being mean and aiming to ridicule, as it's added in the middle of what you quoted and what you replied something that's not even in this thread. That editting recipe would do well in some youtube video hilariously making fun of a character or plot, not a place where one debates.

Those pics from discord and talking about how things were conceived beforehand exposes what exactly? They're all free to believe some stats to be wrong, and to talk and organize things up with others, which is even good as it polishes arguments. There is no "Bullshit" in first going over some things at a time like this Wario feats, if anything doing so is better for everyone than throwing in all would-be changes at once, like we allowed the Mario upgrade to be. Believing that this is being done now that some user is gone is wrong for many reasons, it's drama for no reason, and it's on you to believe that BS and claim it for everyone to hear when as far as we know things would have gone the same with that user still in. "You aren't being honest" is delirious, given that you're the one using dishonest tactics while AKM sama did nothing wrong. The comment got deleted probably because all that pointless drama, false accusations and nonsense shouldn't be here, in this thread for this wiki. The "We see what you're doing" sounds to me like people jumping in a train with similar standards, so I advise them to be better.

The second pic from discord doesn't show something that's been claimed here, nor the context of why it itself was being claimed there, which I can already tell is "way too many AoE fallacies are used". Of that thing AKM sama didn't even claim to agree on you took pics of things from 3 pages to go over why that former thing is wrong, that is literally insane. The straw man fallacy doesn't just come by mistake, it kinda could be that you were aiming to ridicule and strongly disagree with what you could. Cal should be talked to for agreeing on that comment being here.

Everyone who agreed with that should rethink things out without ill passions clouding them, and not just "to get Mario & co. accurate stats". I'm dead serious.
 
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liluzivert said:
Seol, I've seen plenty of your comments on Mario and NONE of them look like they're trying to make the site more accurate at all and it seems like a massive vendetta against the series. And you've done this same thing with series like Earthbound. This is nothing new.

Also come on now. "You guys are just wanking hurr durr", I mean there's 1-A arguments for Mario and literally no one here argues those. But you know, gotta stop the wank.
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You've decided I have a vendetta against a series I've been playing since I was a child because I don't agree it's universal lmao. If you wanna debate me hit me up on Discord and we can.
 
I’m sorry but this is being blown vastly out of proportion, there is no conspiracy to downplay Mario by absurd degrees. Those staff members simply convened in private to discuss the feats. It’s no different from Verse supporters creating Discord servers to organize future upgrades, something that exists for even Mario supporters.

It’s time to conclude this thread, nothing productive can come from this fire.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
I’m sorry but this is being blown vastly out of proportion, there is no conspiracy to downplay Mario by absurd degrees. Those staff members simply convened in private to discuss the feats. It’s no different from Verse supporters creating Discord servers to organize future upgrades, something that exists for even Mario supporters.

It’s time to conclude this thread, nothing productive can come from this fire.
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Fully agreed. Warhammer Fantasy has a server even
 
First of all, I honestly do agree with Cal about the thread being closed prematurely, but would highly appreciate it if both sides calmed down. I'm glad Maverick for example has been one of the few people who has been trying to be fair to both sides. But anyway, the European Website is still a Nintendo published article on a website that is still up to date. And while I do agree that using Discord servers to upgrade or downgrade verses isn't particularly the best approach, it is by no means ban worthy or demotion worthy tactics. But please stop publicly copy/pasting the screenshots from Discord without consent, as that's kind of hurting both sides tbh.

However, I still think it would have been better to wait GyroNuts or Dino to respond for why it isn't. We honestly have no real consistent standards for secondary canon sources as of late it appears. They can be used if the main story has little to nothing to add, but if 2 or more secondary canon sources are equally reliable, that's where it gets complicated. They didn't even get a chance to give their thoughts on which source was more reliable or if they both were. But as for me, I do think the European website is valid at least compared to what has been generally accepted for other policies as of late.

Also, being called "Bizarre" as a reason for the sky not being real sounds like an awful argument. Bizarre just means really weird, or fluctuated, it doesn't mean fake. It still has statements of it being worlds or dimensions; which is spatial in nature. And I was one of the people who wrote the blue prints for DT's rules on pocket dimension feats, so excluding DontTalkDT himself, I'd be considered one of the go to people for acknowledging the policies. If it's a body of space or parallel dimension and especially universe, the logical assumption is the stars are real, and the stars moving unrealistically is just an example to show that the Black Jewel has strong reality warping powers, it does not discredit the size or scope of the dimension.
 
To all the questions, I will make this post to address them.

First of all, literally every verse has their own discord servers. Not one, but multiple. Liluzivert is also a part of a Mario server that constantly shittalks the staff and anybody who disagree with them. I am literally a part of many such discord servers centered around verses. Dragon Ball, Bleach, Naruto, One Piece, DMC, Mario, you name it. Every notable verse has not one but multiple servers made by fans. And they are all dedicated to collecting feats for what they think is legit. People making private servers is not bad, and they do it to make it easier to collect feats.

As for the accusations of not contacting neutral admins, I'd want everyone to go through the list of staff members who commented here. I messaged many of them to give their input on this thread, and people like Damage, KingTempest, Starter Pack, Ogbun, Eficiente are all neutral staff members some of which don't even know much about Mario, and none of them are part of the discord server Maverick has created (the only purpose of which was to invite me there to provide me with context for feats because I was pestering him, Armor and Seol in DMs for information).

I am literally in continuous contact with DDM and Dino, and I make sure that I run my problems by them before I make any thread. So they are also in the know of what issues I have regarding which feats. And if I think my questions have been convincingly answered (like in case of when I talked to Dino about the void feat), I don't touch that topic.

I don't appreciate that the thread was reopened just to start this derailment. And with an accusation that this went under Cal's radar on purpose when I have been very open regarding my issues and the thread has been posted publicly for everyone to comment. I have made it clear to everyone I ask for context, that I don't care for Mario and it is not a verse I am invested in, neither do I have any plans of changing whatever tier he is. I just want the profiles to be accurate. And I decided to take a look only because there was heavy controversy going on about it. If anyone, I repeat anyone, has any questions regarding this, approach me and I'll answer all questions and address every doubt. But I will not entertain this behavior here on the thread and every post that is not related to the topic will be deleted and the member will be thread banned.

To all, please get enough information and context regarding things before getting influenced by someone else and blindly accusing people of bias based on a couple of out of context shitposting screencaps.
 
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Bobsican said:
That still doesn't explain why staff on a neutral point of view over the subject weren't contacted and this was suspiciously rushed to get the changes accepted and applied.
Click to expand...
If I wanted to prepare a 2-C Kirby upgrade with people I could call whoever the heck I feel like, not just to help but to be there, regardless of bias or skepticism, it wouldn't matter because at the end the real CRT would be shown to everyone and need to be accurate to be accepted. This is personal freedom, not scheming.

If I wanted people to disagree with me and argue back at them I could already be making the CRT, preparation be damned.

This is not even what happened here, but still not something you can be against.
 
This is completely irrelevant. Let's focus about the feats this thread is actually meant to address.
 
Right. So what somebody thinks regarding Mario's tier 7 feats isn't the matter of discussion here, and to avoid further derailing on that point, I'll delete the posts like I said.
 
Still don't see how saying "Wario's basement" still isn't technically true to the castle being turned into the world. Hell, even that's inconsistent as other offical sources says Black Jewel changed Wario's World into a new world.

So yeah I'm in agreement with DDM and DRB still.
 
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Foxthefox1000 said:
Still don't see how saying "Wario's basement" still isn't technically true to the castle being turned into the world. Hell, even that's inconsistent as other offical sources says Black Jewel changed Wario's World into a new world.
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It's a small contradiction, but when you are using something from a website as a fact, then these small contradictions matter because they tell you that the website is not written in a fact-based manner. And moreover, when the only mention of "universe" is coming from that questionable source, which is unfounded in the canon source and the manual, then that's not admissible. Moreover, the game goes to show that a single consistent universe doesn't exist. Every stage has its own different background and sky.

Secondly, even if you say he created a bizarre world, but you see, the world is bizarre (meaning different than ours). Is the sky bizarre? Yes. Do we have any proof to say that sky has actual celestial bodies? No. Can we assume that the energy used to create real life stars should be used to measure this feat even if the "stars" in said feat are bizarre, and most likely a background as can be seen? Absolutely no.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And I was one of the people who wrote the blue prints for DT's rules on pocket dimension feats, so excluding DontTalkDT himself, I'd be considered one of the go to people for acknowledging the policies.
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Medeus, this is not how it works. You do know that the standards had to be approved by several staff members, including me? So I know about them just as much as anyone. You can't claim to be an expert and expect other people to follow your word on it even if you're wrong, just because you wrote something that was approved by others.

And since you brought up DT a couple times here, I did contact him about this feat earlier (yes, I contacted a neutral staff member who doesn't really have the time available to help out with CRTs, because I wanted it to be fair) and he found it very iffy to scale Black Jewel's reality warping to his energy attacks.

And I am sure if I contact him here now after more evidence has been presented, he will agree that assuming it to be a universe with real stars and outer space goes against the standards. In fact, since I see a few staff members themselves are confused as to what the standards entail and how they are supposed to work, I'll ask him to see if he can comment.
 
But it isn't a contradiction. The basement is part of the castle. The statement the basement was transformed into a new world is still true if the entire castle got transformed as well.

And again, even this evidence you use has other sources claiming it was Wario's World as a whole and not just his castle so you can't act like just the castle being transformed is consistent either.

Separate worlds doesn't mean it still can't be a universe also. Many dimensions/universes can have smaller separate structures within them (in fact I currently have a thread showing the Marioverse could indeed be one just like this).
 
Foxthefox1000 said:
And again, even this evidence you use has other sources claiming it was Wario's World as a whole
Click to expand...
Yes, and Wario's world can simply mean his castle, or planet, or anything. I have addressed this earlier. But this again shows that the information present in the website is not completely fact-based. Manual > Europen website of a Japanese game.

Foxthefox1000 said:
Separate worlds doesn't mean it still can't be a universe also.
Click to expand...
Very true. But the more worlds you claim, the more evidence you need. Something that isn't present here.

Foxthefox1000 said:
But it isn't a contradiction. The basement is part of the castle.
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Yes. But the statement implies that only the basement was transformed. If you claim a source to be accurate and fact-based enough that you are willing to use information from it, then you can't say "even if it is not accurate, it doesn't contradict anything". If I destroy the whole planet and a news website claims that I destroyed all of America, it isn't wrong. But it isn't accurate source of information that you can use to cite in your school project. A questionable claim coming from a source (European website of a Japanese game) that is unfounded in the canon source (game) and secondary canon source (official game manual), is not something we take at face value.
 
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“It says he warped the basement when in reality it was the castle”

Are we really using semantics to say that the official source is wrong? Seriously?
 
The official, tertiary source that doesn't even get basic details right shouldn't be used as the only evidence for a feat's tier.
 
Ah yes because getting everything right but the minor detail of what became the battle scene instead of getting the entire battle wrong is a massive problem. I ain’t gonna pull a whatsboutism as y’all know I like saying “by that logic” but how many verses would get ****** over because of a typo if scrutinized like y’all are doing.

Also tfw the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company with more branches than an oak tree gets its European branch called “tertiary”
 
*an american-made spinoff with middling sales of a spinoff series of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company gets a half-assed blurb from the european branch called "tertiary", yes

CORRECTION: It's apparently Japanese-made, but was delayed in Japan, shows how high-priority it was ig
 
It is tertiary because the video game of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company is the primary source, and the manual of the game of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company is the secondary source.

And yes, if you want to take a piece of information from a tertiary source as accurate, which btw is not even mentioned anywhere else in any source of the biggest video game franchise of the biggest video game company and is completely unfounded, you are expected to prove that the source in fact is accurate, which it is not.

Even then, to assume that an actual universe is created with actual sky and actual stars but they are warped into such a way that they look unreal requires olympic levels of mental gymnastics and reaching. Which would require a lot more proof than a questionable tertiary source. Occam's razor supports the simple conclusion that if it appears like a firmament type of thing, then it is one.
 
AKM sama said:
Moreover, the game goes to show that a single consistent universe doesn't exist. Every stage has its own different background and sky.
Click to expand...
In fairness, a universe can have many different skies and backgrounds. Each building in the hub could send you to a different planet or timezone to explain this; Naturally, the sky on Earth and the sky on Mars will look different, and the sky on a faraway planet even more so, yet they're still within one single consistent universe. (And different sky backgrounds in Mario is nothing new, such as how some worlds in SMB took place at night, and Super Mario 3D Land/World are even better examples of this).

Whilst I'm not saying these have to take place on different planets, at the very least it brings up the point it's just as reasonable a takeaway from these radically different skies as saying there are potentially numerous worlds/universes. Whilst admittedly the cutscene of Wario travelling to the worlds takes place in this white void, which is reminiscent of other scenes in the franchise that play when travelling to another universe, travelling down a Warp Pipe and jumping into a painting to go to another kingdom are given similar scenes despite these taking you to another place in the same universe. (Side note: Whilst the former is a clip from 3D Land that claims it takes you to a Special World, Luigi has been held captive there, so I don't think it's a different universe. Even if it was, 3D Land's director, Koichi Hayashida, has admitted to wondering what it's like for Mario going down a green pipe, so it's likely this cutscene was made to show what Warp Pipes are like in general).
 
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