Wario "tanks" the destruction of the universe... but not really

[AKM sama]

I was going through Wario's and Black Jewel's profiles and I noticed a little problem.

1. Black Jewel's AP section claims that he created a universe. The evidence comes from Nintendo's European website which states:

While Wario rests, the Jewel begins to morph his treasure trove into a melee of monsters, transforming the basement of Wario's castle into a bizarre parallel universe.

Such feats of morphing something into monsters and transforming a room into a parallel universe fall under reality warping. Although it is creation using reality warping, I see no reason for it to scale to his normal AP.

2. It was argued in a previous thread that Black Jewel's attacks should scale to his creation. Although, for a reality warping feat to scale to energy attacks or physicals, we need some kind of proof, which I can't find anywhere. He also stated that he was filled with power to the level where it was overflowing. We also see red sparkles coming out of him all the while until he transforms Wario's basement into a universe. It seems that this reality warping needs him to be at his absolute max, and we don't see any such visual effects during his other energy or physical attacks where he simply shoots a fire laser from his eye.

With none of the feats coming close to match the level of creation shown using reality warping, and with the reality warping needing him to be chock-full of power when that visual effect and method has not been repeated in his normal attacks, we can't simply assume they scale, just because. None of this in-depth explanation was necessary though, since our usual standards are to not scale such reality warping feats to AP unless there is some good evidence present.

3. Wario's durability states that he tanked the collapse of the parallel universe. Although, if you look at the video, as soon as Wario wins, Black Jewel explodes while his universe is still intact and the screen fades to white in a transition state. When we get back, we see Wario with white background all around. There is no collapse/explosion/destruction of the parallel universe shown in the video linked, so there was nothing to tank. It stands to reason to say that the parallel universe simply disappeared or vanished upon Black Jewel's defeat. So the unfounded assumption that the destruction of a universe was tanked by Wario should be removed from the profile.

 

[Seol404]

Definitely agree, especially on the last point, the parallel universe just vanishes, it doesn't explode or collapse at all.

 

[Armorchompy]

As usual, this seems good.

 

[TMaakkonen]

Agree, this makes more sense for this already weird feat.

 

[Damage3245]

If there is no kind of proof, then I agree that this shouldn't be applied to his normal AP.

 

[Starter_Pack]

I argued about this on Discord, I will say it again here.

Wario didn't tank the universe collapsing. The universe didn't even get destroyed. Everything within? Maybe. But then where would Wario even be? It makes no sense, and I happily agree with the OP and especially the last point.

 

[Ogbunabali]

These screen transition "feats" need to stop. Agreed 100%.

 

[SamanPatou]

I agree with the OP and the others.

Also, I'm not knowledgeable on this Wario game, but I heard multiple times that some explicitly weak creatures (whose combined strength is needed to create an house or something) were together with Wario, and they also "tanked the screen transition", which wouldn't make sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Yeah, the Spritelings are weak creatures and it requires a lot of them to simply build a castle. It's clear that the reality warping simply wore off.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Lol just waiting until you go through every feat in the verse now

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do agree that the durability part of "Wario allegedly tanking the destruction of the parallel universe" is vague. And normally, warping a universe and stabilizing it would not scale to physical stats unless universal energy systems or power sources are explained, but his eye laser isn't really a physical attack either. It's powered by the same power source as the power used for the universal stuff.

There should definitely be details either removed or reworded, but at best, the laser being the same amount power source as the universal feats that Wario tanks said lasers are the only real thing that could. If the lasers aren't considered any less casually efforted than the universal stuff, then maybe; if not, so be it.

 

[DragonLord]

I do agree that the durability part of "Wario allegedly tanking the destruction of the parallel universe" is vague. And normally, warping a universe and stabilizing it would not scale to physical stats unless universal energy systems or power sources are explained, but his eye laser isn't really a physical attack either. It's powered by the same power source as the power used for the universal stuff.

There should definitely be details either removed or reworded, but at best, the laser being the same amount power source as the universal feats that Wario tanks said lasers are the only real thing that could. If the lasers aren't considered any less casually efforted than the universal stuff, then maybe; if not, so be it.

I think the issue is, even if we consider the Laser the same energy source, it seems implied in the story the Black Jewel wasn’t at full power fighting against Wario anyway due to reasons in the thread’s OP

 

[Starsprite53]

I think the issue is, even if we consider the Laser the same energy source, it seems implied in the story the Black Jewel wasn’t at full power fighting against Wario anyway due to reasons in the thread’s OP

Nothing implies that black jewel wasn't at full power, it doesn't even make sense, it would be silly for him to hold back against Wario when he's getting hurt and closer and closer to death with each hit, and red sparkles have nothing to do when he was even shinning before he do anything and releasing himself

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The only thing to suggest Black Jewel getting nerfed is the power nerfing abilities of the Spritelings, but even if Wario hasn't freed a single Spritling, he can still tank hits from Black Jewel; he only ever attacks while not weakened.

 

[DragonLord]

red sparkles have nothing to do when he was even shinning before he do anything and releasing himself

I don’t see how that proves it has nothing to do with his power, he was filled with Power while he was bound and lost the red sparkles when he comes out and transforms the world

 

[Starsprite53]

So what implies that the sparkles are black jewel's full power? Jewels shining aren't something new in fiction
In fact the box itself has red sparkles come out from him

 

[DragonLord]

So what implies that the sparkles are black jewel's full power? Jewels shining aren't something new in fiction
In fact the box itself has red sparkles come out from him

The scene says the Black Jewel is Chock-Full of Power, Chock-Full means he was overflowing with it, he then used that power to transform the castle, the Red Sparkles likely represent this Overflowing state

note the intro also says the Black Jewel turns people desires into Power, so he uses and gains power as a natural thing

 

[KingTempest]

This OP makes sense

 

[DragonLord]

Note that the Spritelings also say

“Wario! Hi! I've been waiting for you! I'm one of the Spritelings of the forest! I have really bad news. That evil black jewel you stole is sucking up all of the negative greed energy swirling around in your castle, and terrible things are starting to happen! Honest!”

If the Black Jewel was, by his own words, overflowing with power and supposedly kept it, why would it be sucking up more?, it can’t really take anymore

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That would imply he's only been getting stronger throughout the course of the game until Wario fights him if anything if "Gaining Power through people's desires". No one's really greedier than Wario, so Wario would be amping the Black Jewel if anything.

 

[DragonLord]

That would imply he's only been getting stronger throughout the course of the game until Wario fights him if anything if "Gaining Power through people's desires". No one's really greedier than Wario, so Wario would be amping the Black Jewel if anything.

His own words was that he was Chock filled with Energy at the very start of the game, Chock Filled means “filled to overflowing.”, he was already at his energy limit at the start of the game, if he kept that power; there’d be no need to suck up more unless he used it before, as he loses the red sparkles from the intro, it’s likely he did lose it

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

I'm going to have to disagree with the first two part of the OP. If it's true that Black Jewel is powered by the negative energy of desires like the first Spriteling said, then the Black Jewel should indeed be full power through out the game as we even get to see him destroy all the levels Wario has been into and casually altered the world again before the final battle, as well as, the entire world disappears as soon as the Black Jewel does, showing it's not a one-time feat limited to a single situation beyond its control. On top of that, the negative energy is undoubtedly fueled by Wario, who is easily one of the most greediest characters in the franchise, meaning he's making him stronger or endlessly supplying him as the game progress, which also debunks that he has become much weaker after the feat or not at full power in any point after that. He's basically using all the power he gain through selfish desires against Wario and using the "chock-full" statement isn't enough to take that away from it. It's too drastic with the other factors against it.

The durability feat, however, I agree with a heartbeat. I'm really getting tired how this is becoming a thing in the franchise. There was no explosion or indication of a powerful blast. The world is simply gone as soon as Wario defeated the character. On top of that, the Spritelings were there too. They are clearly weaker than Wario and could only seal the Black Jewel to stop it prior to the events of the game, an ability that's often seen as a form of hax due to how many times a character has to be sealed to stop it due to his/her/its power rather than outright killing them in fiction, while there needs to be a large amount of them to get Wario's castle back. There's too many things working against this feat and it's not even a valid one. No statements to support this either. It should be removed at once.

 

[AKM sama]

meaning he's making him stronger or endlessly supplying him as the game progress

Proof of this? Is there a statement that implies Black Jewel is constantly getting powerful?

Even if he's not powered down, the reality warping feat was still performed when he was visually giving off an entirely different aura, and it shouldn't scale to his normal attacks unless there is good evidence for it.

but his eye laser isn't really a physical attack either. It's powered by the same power source as the power used for the universal stuff.

Reality Warping =/= energy attack. Former is a magic/hax ability that is being done in a visually different manner and the latter is the energy he can use to attack. I don't see how the two of them correlate here. Somebody magically poofing a universe in existence through reality warping is nowhere near enough to assume all their attacks are universal, especially when they are lacking in any such implications and feats.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

We've already gotten an explanation of his source of power: selfish desires aka Wario and it's the very reason he was able to do this in the first place. Even if it doesn't imply he'll get stronger, it also does not imply he has gotten weaker due to previously stated feats, as well as, the fact Wario still has selfish thoughts. Unless it's stated, nothing implies he isn't using any other source of power for his other abilities and using the color of the aura isn't really a good argument.

 

[AKM sama]

Like I said, even is he didn't get weaker, we still have no reason to assume his reality warping scales to his normal attacks. A magical hax ability =/= energy projection and we don't assume it is, unless there is a good reason. The positive has to be proved.

Analyzing how the feat is done is a very valid comparison to make. The story goes to show that both feats are being done when Black Jewel was visually under different effects. In one he was shown to be overflowing with red sparkles emanating from him, which goes to show that warping the reality is achieved through a different process than a normal eye laser that shows no such effect.

There are two things to note:
1. Unless there is clear evidence, our default decision has to be that reality warping does not scale to normal attacks. And I see clear lack of evidence as no attack comes close to the level of reality warping shown.
2. There is a clear cut difference portrayed in the methods of reality warping and doing a normal attack, further proving a difference.

 

[Cropfist]

Lol just waiting until you go through every feat in the verse now

It's long overdue.

 

[Dino_Ranger_Black]

Sorry but it's not that's not a valid comparison. Using aura as an argument to imply that there's a different source of power is not the case as we were given only one source to it's power, which is the very explanation of where it came from and how he did the feat in the first place. We can see the Black Jewel also glows red when it's about to attack with it's beam (very brief, though) and the beam itself is red, matching the color of the aura you brought up earlier. If this is not a good argument, then neither should the aura as it's being selective otherwise. And again, this is not a one-and done feat. We see the Black Jewel destroying the levels right after and warping then world again, which the disappears when he's defeated. The durability feat is undoubtedly invalid and I'm on board with this.

 

[GyroNutz]

I agree with DDM and DRB here. There's no good reason to assume that Black Jewel used only a fraction of its power against Wario compared to when it created a parallel universe, and more reasons to the contrary.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree with the fade to white being too vague to warrant Durability but I’ll have to do more research on its Creation to form an opinion on that

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yeah, a fade to white is too vague for a durability feat, but as said above the Black Jewel is indeed at full power, the only thing to be disputed is if that full power is 3-A or Low 2-C for Wario scaling.

 

[AKM sama]

@liluzivert this is the second time your post was deleted for derailment. Please stop.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'll see about doing my own research into this. Would Japanese scans help?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Would Japanese scans help?

Yes

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Alright hope the thread doesn't conclude before I can scour through the jap version

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with this.

I pointed out the same about Wario taking the universe being gone in the messy thread that upgraded the verse and only got not very good replies disagreeing with it, and between that, no staff replying with what I said, people disagreeing with that important thread being staff only, and me internally knowing that the staff who agreed with the thread didn't have what it took to look through the comments to find criticism, the whole thing hit me hard. That's not just to throw blame for the sake of it, we are doing something wrong and the first step to fix it is to be aware of it.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

I'm just curious.

If the "red sparkles" are apparently an indication of it's reality warping power then why does this show Wario not only being physically thrown back but the world warping and parts of it crumbling as a result of Black Jewel simply opening it's eye? Hopefully the link worked, but I see no red sparkles there.

In fact, I think this "red sparkles" thing is kind of silly. It's a jewel. They wanted to show it sparkling. In no way is there proof the sparkling showcases it's power??

I will say though that the Spriteling statement of it absorbing the greed or whatever is basically the same in the Japanese.

As for the losing power argument, nothing really implies such. The game has it passively absorbing greedy desires and we aren't told it needes to recharge at all from what I've seen. The japanese words say this. It says "power is full". Before anyone claims anything bold, I'd like to remind everyone the Black Jewel was asleep for like a thousand years thanks to the Spritelings and could likely be referring to it's physical state after being asleep for so long, like a "finally, my power has returned back to me" kind of thing. Full of power/power is full statements aren't really that reliable as nothing says they're at their limit and we've seen plenty of times in fiction how something operating with full power can still go farther. It'd be better if a more accurate translation from a reliable source could come around though. I have a feeling I'm getting the structure wrong.

Fact of the matter is, we have no direct and concrete proof Black Jewel miraculously got weaker via statements, only that it was at full power and then passively gained more, and even if he did, we can still grant a "possibly" for absorbing Wario's greed the entire time, and going off the scene before the final boss, he had apparently absorbed enough to warp this world he created and destroy many parts of it in the process, which I'd say is more proof that when Wario fought it it was in a similar range of power as when he created the place. This red sparkles stuff is purely headcanon as nothing indicates they're the source or indicator of it's power, as I've shown by Black Jewel warping the realm without those sparkles being present before you fight him, and the fact Wario gets thrown back shows it had physical force too. I don't think I need to explain how a person at full power can still get amped to allow them to go beyond such given how common it is in fiction.

 

[Seol404]

Lol just waiting until you go through every feat in the verse now

Honestly, with the amount of feats on these pages that are dubious at best, this should have been done a long time ago.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah, that is an issue.

To be honest I can think of quite a few feats that with context are worthy of considering a downgrade. Maybe I could make those threads if no one else gets to them.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Fairly certain Power Stars, Grand Stars, and the Void feats are legit tho

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah they should be.

Arguments against those will certainly not be new, but if a new one did come up it'd surprise me.