Warhammer Fantasy revision

[Blackcurrant91]

Guys this is devolving into an argument about the tiering system in general. Lets keep it focused.

This isn't just some one of statement about being 'beyond' space and time. The Realm of Chaos is explicitly stated to exist above and outside of the Mortal Realm. They look down on it as if its a game to them. Why does everyone keep implying that my only argument is 'beyond space and time'

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You can't exactly make such general statements in regards to something as broad as all of fiction, nevermind the fact that we still assume verses follow actual mathematics unless otherwise stated or implied. We do allow multiple infinite multiverses to be considered higher into 2-A if the verse deems it as so, yes, but that's an exception, not a rule.

Not really. We don't assume anything that is stated to be "infinitely stronger", goes by default to Low 1-C. Which is why "infinitely above baseline" exists. No verse states "we're still 2-A" when using an infinity statement, the ones that say "it's still 2-A" is us. So don't use the "it's an exception" argument, cus they're clearly not, we treat "infinitely above" and "infinitely bigger multiverses" as just above baseline 2-A all the time, because it is a default assumption unless proven otherwise.

We need proof that these series are following mathematics not the opposite. Especially for stuff like this. Because if we did say "follows mathematics" then pretty much all 2-A would be the same cus you can't be bigger than countable infinity without being uncountable infinite. So all the "above baseline 2-A" is bull to begin with, we still accept it.

If we were to say "let's assume a verse follows science perfectly unless proven otherwise" every verse and their grandmother would have KE calcs left and right unless outright proven they do not follow such rules.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Can we keep arguments about the tiering system for another thread please? this isn't the place to discuss this.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Well, dude, we can’t define what tier these guys are if there’s an argument on the tiers these arm guys are being proposed to actually being up to standards.

 

[Naito-desu]

I mean if there is a disagreement between interpretations of tiers then we might have bigger problems deciding what tier Chaos should be.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I mean if there is a disagreement between interpretations of tiers then we might have bigger problems deciding what tier Chaos should be.

This is my point exactly.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Not really. We don't assume anything that is stated to be "infinitely stronger", goes by default to Low 1-C. Which is why "infinitely above baseline" exists. No verse states "we're still 2-A" when using an infinity statement, the ones that say "it's still 2-A" is us. So don't use the "it's an exception" argument, cus they're clearly not, we treat "infinitely above" and "infinitely bigger multiverses" as just above baseline 2-A all the time, because it is a default assumption unless proven otherwise.

We need proof that these series are following mathematics not the opposite. Especially for stuff like this. Because if we did say "follows mathematics" then pretty much all 2-A would be the same cus you can't be bigger than countable infinity without being uncountable infinite. So all the "above baseline 2-A" is bull to begin with, we still accept it.

That's because "strength" is far vaguer and ill-defined as a concept than the size of an object, especially when dealing with tiers above High 3-A, where there is really no formal notion or unit of energy which allows us to keep track of things at this scale, and it is also far easier for it to contradict our standards than the latter, which you can see in any series where two Low 2-C or two 2-A characters have an established difference in power between them, but one that's clearly not infinite.

We already treat these two things as effectively disjoint, anyway, hence why basic powerscaling and chains of superiority are still valid at 2-A levels, even though feats like "Destroyed an infinite number of multiverses, each of which had infinite universes" are disregarded.

If we were to say "let's assume all follows science perfectly unless proven otherwise" every verse and their grandmother would have KE calcs left and right unless outright proven they do not follow such rules.

Of course, because those are well-known principles that fiction tends to openly reject, with enough frequency and clarity that we don't really need the verse to outright state that they don't follow science. You can probably observe this in any character who has Lightspeed feats, yet doesn't have anything remotely approaching High 3-A in terms of AP, or any character whose speed doesn't have destructive effects on their environment.

Meanwhile, I am talking about really abstract mathematical principles that are both impossible to practically depict for any verse, and obscure enough that they are rarely addressed with enough frequency to be contradicted, directly or indirectly, unlike what I've mentioned above.

Guys this is devolving into an argument about the tiering system in general. Lets keep it focused.

This isn't just some one of statement about being 'beyond' space and time. The Realm of Chaos is explicitly stated to exist above and outside of the Mortal Realm. They look down on it as if its a game to them. Why does everyone keep implying that my only argument is 'beyond space and time'

That does sound like it'd be some good supporting evidence, yeah.

 

[Naito-desu]

I mean I just agree that the evidence presented makes a good case for upgrading Chaos to low 1-C. But if it comes down to fundamentally defining the parameters of what should or shouldn't be 1-C, then it should, in my opinion, be taken to another thread, and potentially have any upscales to 1-C be frozen until such a discussion is concluded.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

even though feats like "Destroyed an infinite number of multiverses, each of which had infinite universes" are disregarded.

They are very much not disregarded. Destroying infinite 2-A multiverses is definitely a thing we treat as "infinitely bigger than baseline",

Of course, because those are well-known principles that fiction tends to openly reject, with enough frequency and clarity that we don't really need the verse to outright state that they don't follow science. You can probably observe this in any character who has Lightspeed feats, yet doesn't have anything remotely approaching High 3-A in terms of AP, or any character whose speed doesn't have destructive effects on their environment.

Meanwhile, I am talking about really abstract mathematical principles that are both impossible to practically depict for any verse, and obscure enough that they are rarely addressed with enough frequency to be contradicted, directly or indirectly, unlike what I've mentioned above.

<Beyond space and time
<Obscure mathematical principles
.....

Of course they are Ultima, of course they are. I honestly hope you're kidding here by saying that "they are more obscure than KE so they can be used", what's even the argument there? Applying arbitrary preferences on what we should and shouldn't take at face value when it comes to statements because it "sounds like it's somewhat obscure", even though it's clearly not.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

No1 has refuted any of my points and the only people disagreeing are doing so because they think my only point is 'beyond space and time' this is getting kinda silly.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

They are very much not disregarded. Destroying infinite 2-A multiverses is definitely a thing we treat as "infinitely bigger than baseline",

You seem to be a bit behind the times in that regard, then. The standards on that were revised a long while ago, my dude. It's written on the Tiering System page, even.

what's even the argument there?

My point is that these concepts are basically impossible to actually depict in any verse, and are contradicted very rarely by virtue of never being actually brought up, so we have no actual reason to assume they don't apply other than a principle that has no actual reason to be assumed, in this case.

Then again, this discussion is probably starting to derail the thread, as said above, so.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You seem to be a bit behind the times in that regard, then. The standards on that were revised a long while ago, my dude. It's in the Tiering System page, even.

Define a long time ago, hell can you link me the thread? Cus last time i remember that wasn't the case.

My point is that these concepts are basically impossible to actually depict in any verse, and are contradicted very rarely by virtue of never being actually brought up, so we have no actual reason to assume they don't apply other than a principle that has no actual reason to be assumed, in this case.

It's very much not impossible to actually depict in any verse. Here's a good depiction of a true "higher dimensional difference" it's not even that hard to depict. The "as drawings on paper" is the easiest way to depict it and it's so obviously higher dimensional that it's impossible to refute it. However the "transcending" not needing proof that that's what they mean seems rather ridiculous. This is a boost of 1 dimension, a boost of infinity. It should absolutely need more proof that the "transcending" is what they truly mean.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Define a long time ago, hell can you link me the thread? Cus last time i remember that wasn't the case.

"A long time ago" as in, during the Forum Move, if I remember it correctly, so it seems like the thread itself is lost, unfortunately. Though you can still go consult the Tiering System page, if you want to see it for yourself; it's the last note at the bottom.

However the "transcending" not needing proof that that's what they mean seems rather ridiculous. This is a boost of 1 dimension, a boost of infinity. It should absolutely need more proof that the "transcending" is what they truly mean.

Of course I believe that solely "transcending space and time" is too vague for a higher tier, I haven't fallen off the deep end (Yet.) The reason I believe it to be valid in this specific case is because the Realm of Chaos' other statements do seem to support it being outright superior to the time and space of the multiverse, what with it containing the whole physical world and being far more abstract and less definite than anything contained in it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

"A long time ago" as in, during the Forum Move, if I remember it correctly, so it seems like the thread itself is lost, unfortunately. Though you can still go consult the Tiering System page, if you want to see it for yourself; it's the last note at the bottom of the page.

However, such a feat may indeed qualify as stronger if the verse itself treats it as such.

Ehhhhh

what with it containing the whole physical world and being far more abstract and less definite than anything contained in it.

Why does being more abstract lead to proof for transcendence though? I don't believe being more metaphysical is supporting proof for dimensional difference.

As for the "containing the whole physical world", i assume that comes from the "containing all things", but that seems to be contradicted when they say "If the Aethyr is not just a place and has no permanent physical dimension and no comprehensible position within our universe". It seems to imply moreso that the Aethyr is less a "higher dimension" (since it states no physical dimension) and more a metaphysical place as supported when they say:

"If one were to step through that rupture it wouldn't lead to a place at all but instead it would retreat to one's own mind".

and

"The Aethyr has no definite, existing, physical reality of it's own"

It seems to be a lot against the idea that it is a place at all, let alone it being a place outside of the universe and containing it.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Firephoenixearl. They are just theorising on the nature of the Realm of Chaos. Humanity cannot truly grasp the nature of the Aethyr as it is a contradiction in of itself.

Those statements are in world scholars trying to make sense of the incomprehensible.

Here is a scan going into more detail about how the Aethyr is a contradiction. The statements about being outside of and beyond the Space Time of the multiverse are third party narators.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Ok it's a contradiction, an uncertainty, but how does that prove that it is an actual place? It just cannot be defined, the fact that it's an uncertainty just means that even if there was a statement that could say it's an actual place, that statement can be disregarded because by it's very nature the Aethyr cannot be comprehended so all their statements are just shots in the dark with nothing to back up their credibility.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

It has no dimension/space until it's given space. The Chaos Gods give the Realm of Chaos at least a loose set of spaces in their personal realms. Without their influence it would just be a sea of formless energy. It's an actual place because characters literally go there

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It has no dimension/space until it's given space.

That just disproves it being a higher dimension though.

The Chaos Gods give the Realm of Chaos cohesion and space. Without their influence it would just be a sea of formless energy

Again, the fact that it's just a sea of energy disproves it being a space containing all the worlds.

It's an actual place because characters literally go there.

Im not so sure on that one, so i'll be referring back to that contradiction thing.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

That just disproves it being a higher dimension though.

I mean it kind of doesn't. Tzeentch can explicitly already create higher dimensional spaces where his power is significantly diminished.

Again, the fact that it's just a sea of energy disproves it being a space containing all the worlds.

It doesn't actually because the interaction between the sea and the physical realm is what causes the creation of said universes in the first place. It is the catalyst and substance used to form the Multiverse. Think of it like Sethir in Blazblue (I know bad example given how that thread is going)

Im not so sure on that one, so i'll be referring back to that contradiction thing.

I posted a scan of Archaon literally going to the ROC. Plenty of other characters have and come back to the physical ream as well.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

this is kind of madness tbh. I have more support then detractors at this stage so I dont know why I am still arguing lol.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Black, that's an ad populum. Just because the majority of people agree on something, that doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Of course, but im arguing against god damn Earl now and Efficiente wasn't making a lick of sense before. It's just really tiring.

 

[ItalianGuy1234]

Hey, it's their job to dispute new arguments if they aren't convincing, no need to get heated

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Fair call. My apologies in that case.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Ehhhhh

Yes, and as said, those are exceptions, not rules. In any case, all of what I outlined above is very much complying with the current standards, so if you have an issue with those, you should probably take that to a separate thread.

As for the "containing the whole physical world", i assume that comes from the "containing all things", but that seems to be contradicted when they say "If the Aethyr is not just a place and has no permanent physical dimension and no comprehensible position within our universe". It seems to imply moreso that the Aethyr is less a "higher dimension" (since it states no physical dimension) and more a metaphysical place as supported when they say:

"If one were to step through that rupture it wouldn't lead to a place at all but instead it would retreat to one's own mind".

and

"The Aethyr has no definite, existing, physical reality of it's own"

It seems to be a lot against the idea that it is a place at all, let alone it being a place outside of the universe and containing it.

The Aethyr being metaphysical in nature doesn't actually contradict it containing the physical multiverse, and it having no position within the world doesn't clash with this either. A realm that exists beyond time and space would obviously reside at no point in the spacetime continuum. Besides, one of the scans already states that all possibilities as to what it is are simultaneously correct and grasp only a small part of the truth, so arguing all of that seems like an exercise in futility.

That just disproves it being a higher dimension though.

Whether or not the Realm of Chaos is a higher-dimensional space is completely irrelevant. Tier 1 focuses on qualitative differences in size, and it doesn't really matter if an individual verse chooses to portray those as higher dimensions or esoteric planes of existence.

Again, the fact that it's just a sea of energy disproves it being a space containing all the worlds.

Would you mind explaining how that is the case?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

It doesn't actually because the interaction between the sea and the physical realm is what causes the creation of said universes in the first place. It is the catalyst and substance used to form the Multiverse.

Doesn't mean it contains them though, it contains the energy which ends up being used to create those, rather than the places themselves.

The Aethyr being metaphysical in nature doesn't actually contradict it containing the physical multiverse

How does it not, they say "it is not a place at all" and "has no existing reality of its own"? How can you say that it's not a place nor a reality on it's own but it's a qualitatively superior plane. It being metaphysical implies more the "does not contain physical stuff" and less "it's metaphysical but it contains the physical" (whatever that would be), which is why people cannot go there in the literal sense.

Besides, one of the scans already states that all possibilities as to what it is are simultaneously correct and grasp only a small part of the truth, so arguing all of that seems like an exercise in futility.

Ok, but they are similarly correct and contradictory along with it basically being based on belief apparently. Some people believe that, some people believe it is just an uncertainty. So again it feels a lot more like people are just theorizing rather than actually knowing what the hell they're talking about.

Tier 1 focuses on qualitative differences in size, and it doesn't really matter if an individual verse chooses to portray those as higher dimensions or esoteric planes of existence.

I would have to ask how a place that similarly can lack dimensions entirely is "bigger" than something that does. How do you compare 2 places if one of them lacks ways to measure it in the first place?

Would you mind explaining how that is the case?

Do i need to explain how if a world is stated to be "a sea of apples" to some extent disproves "it containing all the pears"?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Doesn't mean it contains them though, it contains the energy which ends up being used to create those, rather than the places themselves.

I mean does it 'containing' it matter when it's completely beyond and above it's space time? It is stated to contain all things. I don't see how both the fact the interaction between the two realms is what causes all change in the multiverse and that it contains all the possibilities of said change as well are contradictory.

How does it not, they say "it is not a place at all" and "has no existing reality of its own"? How can you say that it's not a place nor a reality on it's own but it's a qualitatively superior plane. It being metaphysical implies more the "does not contain physical stuff" and less "it's metaphysical but it contains the physical" (whatever that would be), which is why people cannot go there in the literal sense.

The ROC is a realm of mind is all it's trying to say. It's plane of reality outside of the Multiverse. I dont see why it having regions with dimensionless voids means it's not another plane.

Ok, but they are similarly correct and contradictory along with it basically being based on belief apparently. Some people believe that, some people believe it is just an uncertainty. So again it feels a lot more like people are just theorizing rather than actually knowing what the hell they're talking about.

Yes that is correct, it's only corroborating evidence. It's like quoting a scientist

I would have to ask how a place that similarly can lack dimensions entirely is "bigger" than something that does. How do you compare 2 places if one of them lacks ways to measure it in the first place?

It lacks dimensions except for those created by the Chaos Gods. Outside of that there is endless sea's nested within each other. Inside what is created by the Chaos Gods there is 'endless planes of existance'

Do i need to explain how if a world is stated to be "a sea of apples" to some extent disproves "it containing all the pears"?

Like clearly no one actually has taken the time to read my blog because I am just rehashing and repeating the same things over and over.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I mean does it 'containing' it matter when it's completely beyond and above it's space time?

That's the main reason Ultima agrees no?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

That's the main reason Ultima agrees no?

I mean you clearly stopped reading there lol.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes, i did.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Yes, i did.

Please read the rest of the post. I mean we are arguing about literally nothing but yeah.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I dont see why it having regions with dimensionless voids means it's not another plane.

I don't think it says it's just "certain regions" though.

Yes that is correct, it's only corroborating evidence. It's like quoting a scientist

Ok but can everything they say be taken at face value in that case? It doesn't seem like they certain about anything. At least not certain enough to warrant Low 1-C.

It lacks dimensions except for those created by the Chaos Gods. Outside of that there is endless sea's nested within each other. Inside what is created by the Chaos Gods there is 'endless planes of existance'

Chaos Gods can create dimensions? Doesn't that mean that the Chaos Gods are 1-A? Idk what creating dimensions defaults to so maybe Ultima can correct me on that one.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I don't think it says it's just "certain regions" though.

No it doesn't but it doesn't refute the fact that the Chaos Gods create places in the Realm of Chaos all the time. They battle over said spaces which when won increases the size of the respective Chaos Gods territory in the Realm of Chaos.

Ok but can everything they say be taken at face value in that case? It doesn't seem like they certain about anything. At least not certain enough to warrant Low 1-C.

Some of it yes, it's like asking someone at Cern how blackholes work. Most of the text is written by Teclis who is the preeminent scholar in the setting.

Chaos Gods can create dimensions? Doesn't that mean that the Chaos Gods are 1-A? Idk what creating dimensions defaults to so maybe Ultima can correct me on that one.

Yes Tzeentch's power can be used to create 5 dimensional spaces in the Mortal Realm where his power is significantly diminished.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Some of it yes,

Why just some?

 

[Blackcurrant91]

Why just some?

We are arguing over in verse scholars. The reason I said 'some' is just because 'some' of it is just the human mind trying to comprehend the incomprehensible and put it into words, other things he says are more definite, and because there is other texts written by human mages but Teclis is the preeminent scholar of the setting, the Elves have the best understanding of reality behind the Slaan/Old ones.

Tzeentchs domain has 'countless fractal fillaments' that disperse through the territories of the other Chaos Gods and bind them all together.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

We are arguing over in verse scholars.

Those scholars seem to believe different things regarding that though, it seems to be based on what they think it is rather than something factual (at least that seems to be what the scan seems to be implying). Assuming those were all scholars in the 2nd scan.

 

[SomaKing13]

Those scholars seem to believe different things regarding that though, it seems to be based on what they think it is rather than something factual (at least that seems to be what the scan seems to be implying). Assuming those were all scholars in the 2nd scan.

Are you actually reading the entire reply he is giving? You seem to keep catching on one or two pieces per response and entirely focusing on those and ignoring the rest, no offense but shouldn't a discussion be a bit more than that? He's directly talking about how they are all scholars and mages, and the clear difference between how some are merely humans trying to comprehend the incomprehensible, and how others are from Teclis himself, one of the greatest minds of the Old World, with elves as a whole having some of the greatest understanding of all of reality by far outside of the Slaan and the Old Ones. Just like his analogy of Cern and a black hole, while it's just theory, they are still some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet in this regard on what is possibly going on. Which is then reinforced by the rest of the evidence provided, as these are just supporting points to the greater whole.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yeah and i would say it's safe to trust the elves, but who are the ones who are saying the things on the 2 scans he posted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I just wanted to get some things out of the way. The comment about "Ultima accepting things far too easily", while I know of a few examples, I think that comment was slightly harsh. Ulitma at least used to be more conservative and level headed, at least on other threads. He was reluctant to agree with Bravely 2nd characters being Tier 1 because, "Existing outside the multiverse and Transcending an infinite number of universes wasn't enough to Tier 1, but qualifies for At least 2-A". And then it was me mentioning that a character perceives entire 2-A sized multiverses as saved data files was his reason for approving Tier 1.

I know this had nothing to do with this thread. And Ultima being also does get extremely tired do to the hard work. But that really shouldn't be a reason to not consider him excellent. Anyway, after reading some BlackCurrent and Ultima posts, I'm pretty much in the more pro side and agreeing more with Glass. While I agree that, "Outside the multiverse" or a generic usage of "Transcend" doesn't mean uncountable infinitely superior. The whole, being a realm above and beyond the multiverse and containing it as a sub-dimension looks solid evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

I suppose that Ultima and Blackcurrant91 make sense here, yes.

Sorry if I was too harsh.