• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Warhammer Cosmology revisions (Part 2) Chaos God Revisions (1-A, possibly High 1-A)

Blackcurrant91 said:
The Skein being 1-A isn't 100% necessary for the purpose of the cosmology. What is it about the warp that would imply it's references to lacking georgraphy/it's geography being imposed by it's residents that makes it 1-A? just more statements then this to back it up?
Click to expand...
Largely that, yeah. At the very least, the Warp has actual statements of completely lacking dimensionality and being able to accomodate for structures of up to infinite dimensions at its surface. Meanwhile the Skein lacks that, and ontop of it seems to be defined as being below something that explicitly exists in higher dimensions.

Blackcurrant91 said:
Realms in Age of Sigmar are also described as 'layered'
Click to expand...
Realms being described as "layered" isn't really indicative of any relationship of superiority between them. The Warp's "layered infinities" I largely only accepted as valid levels of 1-A because, as far as I see, there is in fact a relationship of size among them (As seen with how its surface is described as containing dimensioned-spaces, while its depths have no dimensions whatsoever, and how the place itself is described as "a boundless sea within a sea within a sea"). This here just seems to be describing different planes existing side-by-side with each other.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
The Skein being 1-A isn't 100% necessary for the purpose of the cosmology. What is it about the warp that would imply it's references to lacking georgraphy/it's geography being imposed by it's residents that makes it 1-A? just more statements then this to back it up?
Click to expand...
The Skein seems to be a realm beyond albeit connected to the universe(s) for sure, where all probabilities, timelines, weaves of fate reside, in a complete flux and uncertain nature, not yet concrete, so it is much vaster than the a singular universe and can easily be regarded Low 1-C.

It being 1-A I guess depends on how it relates to the 1-B, High 1-B or potentially Low 1-A structures which is also beyond the regular 4th dimensional universe which you included at the beginning of the blog. I don't think a clear relationship was established with those structures, it seems to be mainly related to being beyond and containing uncountable infinities of space-time.

Also it depends on how it 1-A characters interact with it, isn't the Hive Mind essentially the God of the Tyranids? Like the Emperor (who essentially became the God of Humanity potentially rivalling the Chaos Gods) and Gork and Mork (who literally beat up the Chaos Gods manifestations), if we can say that the Hive Mind is a 1-A being (in its actual being itself) which resides in the Skein then that seems to bolster it being 1-A. I'm unsure what or which Hive Mind this is so I'm probably completely wrong here.

By the way, the part about Ka’Bandha seems too speculative, it might not be Tzeentch wanting to reach that more fundamental and hard to find part but just Tzeentch's daemons who love knowledge and would do a lot for that knowledge Ka'Bandha was able to find (great feat of comprehension from him by the way).
 
So it seems the Warp, Daemons and CGs will just become varying levels of 1-A instead of 1-A+ or High 1-A.
 
PsychoWarper said:
So it seems the Warp, Daemons and CGs will just become varying levels of 1-A instead of 1-A+ or High 1-A.
Click to expand...
Well, the Warp can still be potentially 1-A+ or maybe even High 1-A because the lowest layer which is the Great Ocean is a 1-B, High 1-B or 1-A+ structure, and the next layer which Magnus is able to access was a dimensionless void completely beyond the former structure, this is just a few layers of the unfathomable depths of the Warp. If the we compare the Warp to the ocean, as is done actually by the writers, the Great Ocean is the surface of the ocean, the ocean is in it's entirety is infinite and boundless. And remember, Ynnead is beyond even the Warp.
 
Okay im not sure where to go from here.

1. Does M-Theory imply that there is up to 11 Dimensions of physical reality? I guess this would make the Skein then 12D (which fits with the Great Dragons bulk wrapping around further higher dimensions)

2. There is also references to lower dimensions and even spaces lower then that called 'metarealities'



It seems to describe accessing these realities requires descriptions using 'Transreal maths'



3. I don't think the surface of the Warp is any different to the rest. It should be noted that the 'infinite dimensioned realm of thought' that the Sperenza created was just it's machine soul within a layer of the warp, it seems highly unlikely that it would be the only soul within the layer+that the layer would only scale to this feat, wouldnt it be a case of taking a cross section of a 1-A plane still being 1-A?
 
Isn’t their legitimate indications that theres differences within the Warp like where the CGs true forms are and the “deeper” warp thats beyond the CGs and such? Also the Infinite Dimension’d thing is simply contained within a part of the Warp its not referring to the Warp in its entirety or even a large chunk of it and we knew dimensions can just be done away with at a whim within the Warp.
 
Yeah we have multiple references to different layers and levels in the warp, and ofcourse even going beyond the warp in it's entirety with the Aethyric Void,
alongside this, we have sub-realms that are large enough to contain entire CGs and structures that can contain entire the bodies of beings even beyond the chaos gods in regards to Void entities, who completely dwarf even them/ and regard the Chaos Gods as children.

For References of places in the Mortal realms having layers that can possibly equate to superiority is their similar nature to the Realm of Chaos itself and references of higher and lower realms, like how Nagash's realm in Shyish is superior to all other of the infinitely spawning underworlds who are directly stated to be below it, and places in Azyr like " High Azyr" which is a distinctly different place within Azyr that the Seraphon reside in, and sub-realms in Ghyran like the hidden Grove, that even the Chaos Gods could not find or enter.

Add in with to support Black's recent post, the fact that they require Transreal Numerancy to work their machines to enter into lower dimensions, would require them going negatively infinite in scale to such a degree that they escape perception entirely, which is exactly what is described and reinforced with how transreal mathematics work, heck transreal numbers even encompass cardinal numbers and set theory. The fact that this is required to pass down ONE lower dimension and they are made aware of several there after makes it all the more crazy considering the same should exactly be made for going higher.
 
I also just wanted to say in regards to the Warp not having infinite layers.

if the Warp+reality are not 'literally' mirrored structures and more metaphorically mirrored this would kind of imply that there is an infinite amount of Gods within the structure of the warp (there literally has to be regardless), we know that powerful Daemons form 'Sub-realms' within the Fabric of the Warp and honestly to me this is the best representation of the actual 'layers' of the warp.

I really think that in the scan discussing the layers of the warp he is referring to 'regions' of a layered Sea as opposed to describing the differences between the layers themselves. He specifically talks about this in relation to the light of the Astronomicon defining 'regions' in the structure of the warp but these seem to be separate to the actual 'layers' themselves as indicated when he talks about 'greater arteries plunging deeper' and how he specifically mentions the lights go out in certain regions of it's structure.

The way I interpret this is that each God or Daemon that forms within the structure of the warp is assigned their own 'Sub-Realm' or basically a space they can enforce their subjective reality upon but again we are just taking slices of a 1-A space here so each 'Sub-Realm' should still be 1-A and there should essentially be infinite 'Sub-Realms' within the regions of the Warp, essentially explaining the notion of the Warp/Reality being reflected/mirrored in a metaphorical sense in that the believes of the beings contained within the structure of reality are reflected in the infinite Gods of the warp (note this is basically what Shysh is as well but less fundamental and we know there is already 'countless infinite' Gods in Shysh.

TLDR: I really think Infinite Sub-realms within a 1-A structure which are effectively 'layered' infinities is what we have here and that the reflection between the warp and reality is a metaphorical one in that the beliefs of humanity in their respective Gods and Daemons is reflected in it's layered structure.
 
Last edited:
So would everything baring void stuff be baseline 1-A and then Void stuff is one level above baseline 1-A?
 
PsychoWarper said:
So would everything baring void stuff be baseline 1-A and then Void stuff is one level above baseline 1-A?
Click to expand...
I still think that we have a case of there being infinite layers in the warp personally. Each God/powerful Daemon has their own realm which is described as a 'sub-realm' and we know there has to be infinite Gods/Daemons so it would follow that there is infinite sub-realms acting as layers of the warp
 
I feel like we have de-railed quite a bit.

So we need to sort out

A. How do higher dimensions work in the imperium. Isn't explicit reference to m-theory highly suggestive of their being higher dimensions of infinite superiority to each other? (there is references to up to 20-D statements up to countless D)

B. How do the layers of the warp work. @Ultima I think it's a case of where 'stratum' is referred to meaning a 'region of layers' as opposed to describing layers themselves, implying that said region stops where the light of the Astronomicon finishes not that it is a layer in of itself.

If there is infinite Gods/Daemons there should be infinite 'sub-realms' which I feel like is a strange term to use if it isn't explicitly referring to the layers of the warp.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
I still think that we have a case of there being infinite layers in the warp personally. Each God/powerful Daemon has their own realm which is described as a 'sub-realm' and we know there has to be infinite Gods/Daemons so it would follow that there is infinite sub-realms acting as layers of the warp
Click to expand...
Unless their is an hierarchy where each demon transcends the others. It wouldn't qualify as 1A+. Having infinite 1As doesn't make 1A +
 
I do not know the warp as you do,’ said Yesugei. ‘But I know is not that simple. Otherwise, no movement is possible at all.’ ‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways.

This is the region where the Astronomicon shines and you can use it to navigate these region. I really think 'Stratum' here is describing a 'region of layers' as opposed to a single layer.

There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper.

This is the largest region of the warp where the majority of the Realms of the Gods of Order and Daemons of Chaos would reside.

There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror.

Here there is no protection of the Astronomicon, all lights go out and the Realms of the Chaos Gods begin

How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’ ‘But you try to map it.’ ‘It could not be done.’ Veil shook his head with frustration. ‘He was wrong about that, at least. It is not a mirror. It moves like a living thing. It is a living thing. Touch it, and it trembles.’ He briefly lost his certainty. ‘I do not have the Eye, but still I have seen things. I have studied what they study. The complexity is… immortal.’ ‘Try to explain.’ Yesugei spoke softly. ‘I am fast learner.’ Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.

Here he goes into more detail about the Stratum obscurus or the region beyond the Cartomancers light.

I really think he is referring to regions of the warp as defined by the Astronomicon as opposed to describing the actual layers themselves which would also fit in the definiton of 'Stratum' as describing a 'region of layers' or a layer itself.
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
Does M-Theory imply that there is up to 11 Dimensions of physical reality?
Click to expand...
It does.

Extra dimensions - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

In physics, extra dimensions are proposed additional space or time dimensions beyond the (3 + 1) typical of observed spacetime

String theory has one notable feature that requires extra dimensions for mathematical consistency. Spacetime is 26-dimensional in bosonic string theory, 10-dimensional in superstring theory, and 11-dimensional in supergravity theory and M-theory.
 
Deagonx said:
It does.

Extra dimensions - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

In physics, extra dimensions are proposed additional space or time dimensions beyond the (3 + 1) typical of observed spacetime

String theory has one notable feature that requires extra dimensions for mathematical consistency. Spacetime is 26-dimensional in bosonic string theory, 10-dimensional in superstring theory, and 11-dimensional in supergravity theory and M-theory.
Click to expand...
Is that irreconcilable with statements of 20 dimensions up to countless?
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
Is that irreconcilable with statements of 20 dimensions up to countless?
Click to expand...
Yes. The concept of supergravity from which this 11 dimensions figure comes is a limit. This is contrasted against general relativity which doesn't have such a constraint.

M-theory - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

General relativity does not place any limits on the possible dimensions of spacetime. Although the theory is typically formulated in four dimensions, one can write down the same equations for the gravitational field in any number of dimensions. Supergravity is more restrictive because it places an upper limit on the number of dimensions
 
Deagonx said:
Yes. The concept of supergravity from which this 11 dimensions figure comes is a limit. This is contrasted against general relativity which doesn't have such a constraint.

M-theory - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

General relativity does not place any limits on the possible dimensions of spacetime. Although the theory is typically formulated in four dimensions, one can write down the same equations for the gravitational field in any number of dimensions. Supergravity is more restrictive because it places an upper limit on the number of dimensions
Click to expand...
Okay so we have Low 2-C spacetime, attached to an High 1-C Brane with a 12-D Skein on top, which would fit where the Hive Mind's bulk is described wrapping around further dimensions which would make sense as the Skein is seemingly unbound and separate from space-time/gravity.

Now to the layers of the Warp I guess.
 
Last edited:
Bump. I'm a little confused, were these newfound things like the meaning and use of m theory only now realized, or were they brought up with the people behind the revisions before now?
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
I do not know the warp as you do,’ said Yesugei. ‘But I know is not that simple. Otherwise, no movement is possible at all.’ ‘There are layers,’ said Veil, impatiently. ‘Yes, there is stratum aetheris, the shallow ways.

This is the region where the Astronomicon shines and you can use it to navigate these region. I really think 'Stratum' here is describing a 'region of layers' as opposed to a single layer.

There is stratum profundis, the greater arteries, plunging deeper.

This is the largest region of the warp where the majority of the Realms of the Gods of Order and Daemons of Chaos would reside.

There is stratum obscurus, the root of the terror.

Here there is no protection of the Astronomicon, all lights go out and the Realms of the Chaos Gods begin

How does this help you? No living man can navigate the deep ways. Even he could not.’ ‘But you try to map it.’ ‘It could not be done.’ Veil shook his head with frustration. ‘He was wrong about that, at least. It is not a mirror. It moves like a living thing. It is a living thing. Touch it, and it trembles.’ He briefly lost his certainty. ‘I do not have the Eye, but still I have seen things. I have studied what they study. The complexity is… immortal.’ ‘Try to explain.’ Yesugei spoke softly. ‘I am fast learner.’ Veil exhaled, his eyes widening. ‘The Seethe is an ocean. All know this – it has currents, it has depths, it has storms. Near the surface, you can see the Cartomancer’s light. You can follow it. You can use your Geller aegis, and you are kept barred from the Intelligences. But even then, you are just below the upper limits. Go deeper and the aegis shatters. The lights go out. The Eye is blinded. When men say that they traverse the warp, they boast, for no mortal does more than skim across eternity’s face, like stones thrown by a child. We do not belong there. It is poison for us, and the deeper in, the worse the poison.

Here he goes into more detail about the Stratum obscurus or the region beyond the Cartomancers light.

I really think he is referring to regions of the warp as defined by the Astronomicon as opposed to describing the actual layers themselves which would also fit in the definiton of 'Stratum' as describing a 'region of layers' or a layer itself.
Click to expand...
Bumping my last comment regarding the scan describing the warp layers.
 
Okay after much discussion in DM's with Ultima this is where we landed.

Low 2-C matereum inside of a High 1-C Brane < Skein is either Low 1-C or 1-B. < Stratus Aetheris (Low 1-A for transcending/encompassing a High 1-B structure in the Machine Soul of the Sperenza) < Stratus Profundis (1-A for transcending this) < Stratus Obscuris/the Heart of terror as they are the same thing (1-A) < Ghostwind/Aethyric Void< (1-A a singularity where all the concepts of higher realms are simultaneously nothing but also everything)

There is a lot to unpack here in terms of scaling because of how it's implied the Ctan in their non-physical form came from the Ghostwind.

This thread may be too messy to salvage however.
 
Last edited:
You're gay, your fantasy verse is gay, and so is this thread. Rejected.

But in all seriousness what Ultima's agreed to so far and what's on the profiles in their majority is fine. That being said, I'd like some elaboration on the bit about there being entities that see even the CGs as inferior.
 
Crabwhale said:
You're gay, your fantasy verse is gay, and so is this thread. Rejected.

But in all seriousness what Ultima's agreed to so far and what's on the profiles in their majority is fine. That being said, I'd like some elaboration on the bit about there being entities that see even the CGs as inferior.
Click to expand...
Do you mean the Void Entities in Age of Sigmar?
 
Blackcurrant91 said:
I still think that we have a case of there being infinite layers in the warp personally. Each God/powerful Daemon has their own realm which is described as a 'sub-realm' and we know there has to be infinite Gods/Daemons so it would follow that there is infinite sub-realms acting as layers of the warp
Click to expand...
There isn't much to suggest that each of those realms are aligned hierarchically, though, so that a higher realm infinitely dwarfed a lower one. That's largely my issue here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

DaReaperMan
Warhammer Fantasy: Souls and minds=Aethyr
Replies
18
Views
1K
Eseseso
Eseseso
Naito-desu
Warhammer Fantasy: Profile and Verse Page Revisions
Replies
19
Views
942
Naito-desu
Naito-desu
RM97
Vampire Hunter D: Cosmology Upgrade (1-A??????)
2
Replies
74
Views
11K
Setsuna_tenma
Setsuna_tenma
Blackcurrant91
Small Warhammer Fantasy downgrade.
Replies
8
Views
892
Blackcurrant91
Blackcurrant91
AbaddonTheDisappointment
Warhammer 40k Xenos God Revisions + Some Necron Reworks
Replies
27
Views
2K
AbaddonTheDisappointment
AbaddonTheDisappointment
Back
Top