Warhammer 40k Primarch Tiers

[RavenSupreme]

well you know how arguments like that end. people will have a look at the profile and go for the highest yield possible - if they then even have a source confirming their apparent solar system argument things get often very chaotic.

so i would appreciate a changing to: at least 5b (keep in mind we already have upgraded from moon level) likely far higher instead of giving a definite 4b

and as i said - khabanda was in later fights bested from being not the primarch, or at least stopped. does not mean we move random blood angel captains to solar system as well...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This is true, but the fanboying can always be shot down, while it is more tiresome to explain higher possibilities within each individual fight.

Yes, Ka'bandha was later bested by non-Primarchs (and to be fair, so was Daemon Angron...but like, by Grey Knights), but as I said before, we certainly won't be going the route of scaling from stuff like that. Cato Sicarius won't get tier 3 for beating a transcendent C'tan and Dante won't get tier 4 for beating Skarbrand. We can look at these things in context and see PIS, whereas things like Sanguinius making a last stand against Horus are important parts of the canon and have been for a long time.

 

[RavenSupreme]

the thing i am afraid of is: there are too many people outside without the in-depth knowledge off the warhammer verse who only go by sheer profiles to make their judgement, leading to inflated debates, since why should we come in and explain that things are not necessarily solar system level when we document it in the profiles? explaining it would take too much and the reputation will suffer

"at least 5b, likely far higher" is a thing we should settle on to avoid that kind of confusion

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Are you sure the same effect couldn't be achieved by simply adding a note with a minor explanation of the high and low ends attatched to each Primarch's profile? I feel that would mitigate most problems while still being able to show off both high and low ends.

 

[RavenSupreme]

but thats the problem. we base the high end off one feat in a massive lore with tons of feats contradicting it. can you find some still canonically correct lore where you get solar system level demons? not to mention the feat was performed by multiple demons, not a single one - so we do not know how much power is divided by them.


and 2 suns does not make up for solar system not to mention. so solar system is absolutely not appropriate in the first place...

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think I said this before, but the suns thing wasn't for tier 4 Primarchs. That was just another thing to add to the higher tiers. The tier 4 is mainly for stuff like Sanguinius fighting Horus, who immediately after went on the cripple the Emperor. Yes, the Emperor wasn't fighting back (because he was perfectly capable of killing Horus), but he was still on the defensive, and breaking through those defenses is a pretty solid feat.

 

[RavenSupreme]

well but when i look at the profile i see up to 4b for every primarch

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Mainly because everyone should at least to some degree scale to Sanguinius. Angron is arguably stronger (according to Corax) and Russ, the Lion, and Magnus should be in the same ballpark of strength.

 

[RavenSupreme]

which is the thing i disagree with. there is no base for that tier except one quote and the shaky horus-sanguinius fight of which we have no canonical intel - and the quote would be star level in the first place as well. performed by multiple demons. not one single demon

whereas we have multiple statements disproving the tier. i mean we have already agreed to use 5b and likely higher. the new quote should be used for people who question our rating, and not be used as reference for an even higher rating

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The problem is I really cannot see Sanguinius being able to one-shot the majority of his brothers no matter how hard I try. Yes, he was supposed to be one of the best fighters. Yes, he was one of the physically strongest. Yes, he was one of the most versatile. But he wasn't leagues above all others. Something which scales to him should, to at least some degree, scale to the others.

I also don't think we really have much "disproving" the higher end tiers of the primarchs. We simply have more lower showings than higher showings, but this does not completely invalidate the higher showings.

 

[RavenSupreme]

and because he would not one-shot his brothers there is little to argue for such a tier jump. the primarchs are meant to be on a level (minor tierdifferences but neglectible)

but the problem is, we do not have "higher showings" we only have that one feat (which is no solar system feat) performed by an unknown number of demons which destroy 2 suns in an unknown amount of time

and then we have sanguinius damaging horus armor - without intel on how it happened.

thats too little, dont you think so too?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Actually, that was part of the reason for the tier jump. If Sanguinius was able to at least cause superficial damage to Horus, logically at least most of the other Primarchs should have been able to, as well.

The higher showing is fighting against Horus and damaging his armor, which to be entirely fair, is better than pretty much everything all other non-daemon Primarchs (and Horus, obviously) have done. Regardless, causing even superficial damage to a character that much stronger than you should be impossible if you too are not of a certain level of power.

We do not know exactly how Sanguinius damaged Horus' armor, but we can be like...99% sure it was via raw power. The only durability negation Sanguinius has lets him vaporize people, and I don't think that would have left a ***** in the armor.

I don't think I'd find this feat as important as I do were it not an important moment in the climax of the Heresy, which to my knowledge, has been part of the lore for quite some time. This isn't a case of "Cato Sicarius beat a Transcendent C'tan therefore every named character of captain level or above should be 3-C". It's more deduction that, though Chaos Horus was easily the strongest Primarch, the it's unlikely the difference between he and his brothers was so much that they couldn't even scratch him.

 

[RavenSupreme]

without knowledge how it happened we cant use an assumption to justify solar system damage output when everything else in the entire lore speaks against it

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, but my point was there really is no other way it could have happened. If it had been like...Magnus or someone else who frequently fought with Warp-based powers, we could assume he had used some sort of durability negating psychic ability to do so. However, for Sanguinius, who doesn't really do stuff like that, and whose only form of durability negation causes vaporization of organic matter, I'm not really seeing another way.

Keep in mind this is also just for AP, which would not take into account AoE. It's unlikely Horus could whip out solar system level AoE like the Emperor could, but he certainly brought the AP to bear in their fight.

 

[RavenSupreme]

but that is not enough. we as well have to keep in mind that armor is not necessarily comparable with durability. space marine armor is put under fire and receives dents, scratches and other kind of damage. this does not make every laser shot a large building laser shot

it might be that sanguinius just damaged the armor the same way

there are too many ifs and doubts for a feat we know nothing about. using that to justify 4b is the wrong approach.

the warhammer verse received many good and reasonable upgrade in the last time which i supported since they were based of clear quotes, reasonable scaling and feats

this upgrade is not. no clear quote. no reasonable scaling. and a feat we base of assumptions

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Oh of course, though it does need to receive a significant amount of damage, first. Only Sanguinius would be dealing that damage, in this case. Not a barrage of attacks from multiple foes.

I agree that it is a not a quote and it is not 100% clear, which is why I didn't insist on just straight up upgrading everyone directly to tier 4. That said, it is a feat which legitimately happened, and something I feel can be a justifiable high end as long as the reasons for it (and that this is the maximum possible rating based on the best showings) are made abundantly clear.

 

[RavenSupreme]

are you alright with reverting the changes as long as this matter is not settled?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I would be, though since we both seem to pretty clearly stand on different points, perhaps we should get some input from others before making final decisions?

 

[RavenSupreme]

i think so too, yeha. maybe we should summarize our points for people to quickly look over them and judging instead of having them to read for hundreds of posts?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's probably a good idea. Would you like to list yours, first?

 

[RavenSupreme]

you can go first, no problem. i still have to re-read the points to get my list. i will go second

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Alright. So to summarize for anyone who arrives late, Raven and I are basically debating if the Primarchs should be listed as "At least 5-B, likely far higher" or "At least 5-B, likely up to 4-B". I am in support of the latter, and some of my reasons why are as follows.

• The "likely up to 4-B" comes from an event during the Horus Heresy in which Sanguinius fights against a Chaos-empowered Horus and manages to hold him off for a little bit as well as put a ***** in his armor.

• This is not a random event which has been retconned over the years. Sanguinius' last stand has been a pretty important moment of the Horus Heresy since its conception.

• While this damage is superficial, immediately afterwards, Horus goes on to fight the Emperor and beat him to near death.

• Yes, the Emperor was trying not to harm Horus at first, but he was still on the defensive, and Horus managed to bust through those defenses and absolutely cripple his father.

• In order to do this, Chaos Horus would need to be "4-B" at least.

• Sanguinius being only 5-B and managing to slice through Horus' armor doesn't make sense.

• Sanguinius' only form of durability negation involves vaporization of organic matter, so he would have had to have done this by brute force.

• Yes armor can be worn down, but this was a one-on-one fight. All damage would have to have been inflicted by Sanguinius.

• While Sanguinius was one of the strongest Primarchs, he was by no means completely out of anyone's league, and certainly could not have one-shot all of his brothers. Thus, this feat would scale to the other Primarchs, as well.

• Keep in mind that since this is an isolated incident, I am not arguing for the Primarchs to just all be straight up 4-B. Simply that their high end of "likely up to 4-B" should be noted.

• I feel that simply putting "likely far higher" will not only not draw attention to what I feel is a legit feat, but also means people are likely to simply gloss over it and treat the Primarchs as "just" 5-B, which I have seen happen with other characters, before.

• Raven brought up a good point about people attempting to state that all Primarchs are 100% 4-B despite that not being written on the profile, but I believe this issue can be mitigated by a simple note on the Primarch pages, which would also allow us to not completely dismiss what I believe to be a legitimate feat.

I think that's about it.

 

[Aparajita]

Also Remember that Horus' armor had also been empowered by the Chaos Gods, as he shrugged off autocannon fire from the Imperial Fists Terminators and such without much of an issue.

Horus' Terminator Armor was, arguably, even stronger than the Emperor's Armor.

Before the comment of "why doesn't Chaos just destroy all the Stars and be done with it?" Because Chaos feeds off the emotions of mortals, no mortals = no food = starving Chaos Gods.

I support the upgrade.

 

[RavenSupreme]

thanks for the summary of your points there - so for everyone joining in and not being sure what to pick, here are the points which speak against an upgrade for the primarchs up to solar system level

• The Warhammer Lore is massive. We have specific magazines with backround informations, entire bookseries, games, rules and codexes around the verse. The informations go on for decades: -> but in all these decades, in no book, no codes, no magazine or any other form of media have the primarchs been something else than depicted as a planetary thread at best.
• There exists no quote or feat of a Primarch ever doing something on the cosmic scale
• Up until now it was never made clear how Horus received the damage in his armor. Keep in mind: Sanguinius never damaged Horus itself. Horus durability was never to the test - it was the mere armor who "somehow" got damaged, without further explaination
• Space Marine armor gets damaged constantly from laser fire, scratches and other forms of damage - meaning a damaged armor does not transfer to the attack potency of the attacker
• Khabanda is a demon who managed to give Sanguinius, the primarch the discussion circles around a good fight, even defeating him at one instance - the likes of Khabanda are depicted to be at Moon level
• While Kabanda surely has surpassed that level, he is on later occasions bested multiple times - not from primarchs but regular blood angels and the exemplar of the host, making Sanguinius tier even more questionable
• We have no quote, no feat and no reasonable scaling in the entire verse over the entire time of its existence which supports an upgrade above "5b, likely much higher" - aside from Sanguinius questionable achievement which was up to now never explained
• We have however clear quotes from Primarchs fighting which is described with "mountain shattering" and "earth crumbling" which leaves us on a seizmic scale and fits the lore

so yeha. higher than 5b? much likely. but a straight jump to 4b over one questionable feat and neglecting every other feat and quote from decades ? thats not justifiable

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bumping this now that we've both written our points down.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am very busy and distracted, so I cannot spend much energy on this, and I do not know the property well, but if Sanguinius is depicted at wildly different levels at different times, it seems like he was either extremely boosted by the Chaos gods during the Empoeror fight, or that the franchise in question is mostly uninterested in scale and consistency. Alternately, the characters are largely glass cannons that can be damaged by far less powerful beings if they do not actively use their powers for offensive purposes.

Given this, the tiering seems uncertain. Perhaps we could do a mixture of your suggestions, and use "At least 5-B. Possibly much higher" combined with explanatory footnotes?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Well, I am very busy and distracted, so I cannot spend much energy on this, and I do not know the property well, but if Sanguinius is depicted at wildly different levels at different times, it seems like he was either extremely boosted by the Chaos gods during the Empoeror fight, or that the franchise in question is mostly uninterested in scale and consistency.

Sanguinius was the one fighting for the Emperor. Horus was the one who had been boosted by the Chaos Gods.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, like I said, I am not in a good state of mind right now.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Don't worry about it.

 

[Promestein]

I've been really out of it all day, so excuse me if this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I agree with Azathoth. It makes no sense for the Primarchs to be so far behind one another - even Horus, as strong as he is - and besides, this isn't a definite rating either, it's just 'likely up to'. 'Possibly as high as' might be better, with all the uncertainty there seems to be about this, though.

Besides. I felt like it was obvious before that the "likely much higher" for the Primarchs was ultimately suggesting "likely up to 4-B". As long as some sort of note is included regarding inconsistencies and such, I'm fine with it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

'Possibly as high as' might be better, with all the uncertainty there seems to be about this, though.

That does actually sound like a good way of phrasing it.

 

[Antvasima]

So, if I understand this correctly, Horus took down a defensive Emperor, and Sanguinius managed to harm his armor, but on another occasion Sanguinius only managed to stand up to a Moon level character.

Well, what I mentioned earlier about inconsistency and glass cannons may still apply. As Raven mentioned, it may also just have been intended as a scratch in the armor, not a testament of comparable power.

You might wish to ask more staff members for input though. I am definitely not in a good state of mind.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So, if I understand this correctly, Horus took down a defensive Emperor, and Sanguinius managed to harm his armour, but on another occasion Sanguinius only managed to stand up to a Moon level character.

Normal Bloodthirsters are moon level. Ka'bandha is supposed to be one of the most powerful bloodthirsters to ever live, and another Bloodthirster referred to as "one of the strongest Bloodthirsters" is supposed to be on par with Angro after his ascension.

Ka'bandha is almost certainly way, waaaaay above moon level. You could argue that he was later defeated by regular marines, but that was by:

a. Two chapters, combined

b. A chapter specifically trained to fight daemons

c. A weapon which was basically kryptonite, to him.

It's also unlikely any of the Primarchs can be treated as glass cannons, especially since they're all supposed to be of relatively comparative power and many have battled against and tanked hits from each other.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[CrossverseCrisis]

Hmm. To summerize this whole thing, I would lean towards more onto Azathoth's than Raven's if i had to choose. It would just look way outta place for a Moon/ or Planet level character to not be 4-B after at least putting a nick on a guy's armor as that of the....Emperors?

Anyways, i'm in for the "Likely up to 4-B" so long as their is a note regarding around it...

 

[RavenSupreme]

• bumping*

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if I have to choose, I think that Azathoth seems to make a bit more sense.

 

[RavenSupreme]

its beyond my understanding how to be honest

---

i mean: can anyone maybe link me even the whole damaged-armor quote or so?

 

[RavenSupreme]

because all i know is that...

While he was alone, he chanced upon Horus and immediately attacked the Warmaster. But Sanguinius was no match for Horus at the height of his Daemon-gifted power and was slain with contemptuous ease.

which, alongside with all the other sources depicting no primarch to ever have lived on that level, and no quote to actually gain some intel on tells a complete different story.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. Alright, I redraw my previous conclusion until we get this sorted out. I am not in a good mental state to make judgements anyway.