Warhammer 40k Primarch Tiers

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"Black and red entwined, a golden eye, slitted like a cats. Ivory pinions, a boom of air and a clash of swords. Halo and thorny crown clash, a beating of breasts. Luminous and wondrous rears above hard-edged plate and monstrous ambition. They are clawed and enraged. A stalemate of blows, a battle of wills fought in realms beyond the understanding of mortal senses.

It is martial perfection unmatched. Only one battle in the history of the galaxy will ever eclipse its fury, and it will be fought in the same place in a matter of moments. That one such battle should take place is remarkable. Two is unheard of. There are no forms he can see, only light and darkness, fleeting impressions of battling titans. These warriors are avatars, numinous and filled with the light of creation at the heart of the universe. Moulded into ideally-wrought mortal forms and unleashed upon the galaxy, they are brightly burning stars, all the brighter for their achingly short existence.Voices take shape, but Kai is relieved beyond imagining that he cannot understand them, for who would dare listen to the words of gods? These incredible beings come together once more, and though their language is unknown to him, meaning seeps into his consciousness.Gods may be beyond understanding, but they will be heard.Promises are made. Offers of power and servitude. Seductive bargains offered as promises. Angelic scorn is poured upon them. Hurt tears of rage and rejection. Bloody tears on golden features, a necessary death, the most infinitesimal crack in the most impenetrable armour. A life given willingly, a sacrifice on the altar of the future.A death for a death. One to provoke the other…Black and crimson collide one last time. An explosion of red light swamps Kai and time skips back and forth once again." The Outcast Dead Pgs.745-747

This is a description of the fight between Horus and Sanguinius. Horus' armor isn't treated like some cheap, slightly above average terminator armor, either. It, like he is, is blessed by the dark gods. Yes Sanguinius only cracks it, but that's still more than pretty much anything else can say. Also, by the description of the fight, it does indeed seem Sanguinius did this with physical blows.

This also shows that Horus didn't just roflstomp Sanguinius by like...casually slapping him, or something. They actually fought, which is why, as I said before, this should be viewed as legit. And unlike many accounts that just say something like "Horus killed him", this is a direct account of someone viewing the fight (via psychic powers, of course).

 

[RavenSupreme]

it was in another thread (i think it was the LN discussion thread) we argued about how to treat quotes when they are not backed up from the storyverse itself. this is one of those cases. not only is the "damage" sanguinius managed to inflict on horus armor described as being "infinitesimal" but also we have no information given on how that has happened

the events described are mere visions from an astropath named kai zulane - meaning if and how they will happen in the new lore is still unconfirmed

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whereas the current lore, makes the fight much more clear, namely in white dwarf 330

https://html1-f.scribdassets.com/5seyiryji84z2g40/images/70-3417797f58.jpg

where i already quoted the result as a victory with "contempteous ease" for horus

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another thing we have to keep in mind is our own credibility as a trustworthy source. when fans and debaters will see primarchs with a 4B tier which is based of a vision of an infinitesimal of an not yet happened incident in the current lore they will more than likely start to question how accurate our other profiles are. after all we do not necessarily create these profiles for our own purpose but for other people to have something to refer to when they use characters in a debate.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Kai's vision may not be 100% clear, but I trust it a lot more than a single sentence account of the battle which is simply talking about it in the past tense. Kai's vision is a multi-paragraph description of basically how the battle played out. The WD description is a single sentence which amounts to "Horus killed Sanguinius". I'm also fairly certain the Horus Heresy counts as current lore, possibly even moreso than a single mention in an issue of White Dwarf.

Also, you can inflict a single small amount of damage on someone and still die with "contemptuous ease". Not to mention that, once again, Chaos Horus can be hundreds of thousands of times stronger than Sanguinius (which while he was much, much, muuuuch stronger, Kai's vision indicates this is not the case) and Sanguinius would still be within 4-B. This seems much more fair than ignoring it just because "Horus is a lot stronger". I would never place a profile at a certain strength simply because I wanted it to be there for my own reasons. I believe we should acknowledge this because in my eyes, it is the right choice, and is acknowledging a very important event in the lore.

 

[RavenSupreme]

well but why should we take a vision which you state yourself is not 100 clear about an incident which has yet to actually happen in the ongoing novel series (which will make things hopefully a lot clearer) as granted and neglecting decades of fluff (including in the new rewritten horus heresy) which give us a much different picture?

especially when the way this vision describes the event is with hyperbolic words such as

filled with the light of creation at the heart of the universe.

they are brightly burning stars

making things just more iffy

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because as far as I'm aware, there isn't a first hand account from the Horus Heresy which just portrays Sanguinius as being completely murdered without being able to fight back. I could be mistaken on this, but I have not found any quotes.

Obviously, like almost all of 30/40k, the passage uses flowery language to get its point across. However, I highly doubt this invalidates the fact that it still portrays Sanguinius as being able to damage Horus' armor, albeit slightly.

As I said before, the fluff which supposedly invalidates this is just usually single sentences recalling the event which simply mention that Horus easily killed Sanguinius, and that's it. This is, while a bit blurry, a vision of the actual event, which I would put in much higher regard. If a first hand account of the fight is released that portrays Sanguinius as being unable to do anything and turns the damaged armor thing into a myth, then yes, of course this would be invalidated. Lore is subject to change. However, to my knowledge, this is not the case as of now, and thus I see no reason to write it off.

 

[RavenSupreme]

horus tried to persuade sanguinius to join his side, making the entire feat vulnerable to PIS as well (aside from it not have happened and just being a vision)

the entire feat is based off a vision of a human who states himself he can not see the forms of the combatants in his vision, with both sanguinius and horus exchanging words prior to sanguinius death and an undescribed infinitesimal damage - not at horus, but at horus armor.

these kinds of events are very common in many verses in fiction: a lot weaker character lands a blow to a ridicoulus stronger character because these two characters are having a relationship. leading to PIS cases all the time.

and in this specific case, the event is so blurry (since it has yet to happen in the novel) that we should stick to what we can verify with actual prove. and not what we think is reasonable base one quote while disregarding everything which speaks against it. you said yourself there are far more instances which actually disprove the feat afterall.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Did not Sanguinius also attempt to persuade Horus to just back down? To my knowledge, it wasn't a case of Horus talking while Sanguinius attempted to wail on him. Both first attempted to use their words.

PIS, as the name implies, tends to be strictly focused on things happening only for the sake of plot despite not making sense. The ***** in Horus' armor was never portrayed as for plot. Simply a side effect of the fight. The only way it could be written off as PIS is if you take the idea that the Emperor needed that hole to kill Horus literally, which itself is the part of the event usually written off as Imperial propoganda/Blood Angels wishful thinking.

Yes, the event is blurry, but as I said before, I trust a blurry event that depicts what happened more than a single line of text which just says that Horus easily killed Sanguinius. Besides, as I said, the two are far from mutually exclusive, as killing an enemy after they only inflict one wound on you can still be described as "contemptuous ease". I also never said there were more instances which disprove the feat. I said all instances which supposedly disprove the feat are lines of dialogue which simply refer to the fight in past tense without going into much detail.

Again, if the first hand account of the fight does end up showing Sanguinius getting totally bodied without inflicting that single cut in the armor, it should definitely be considered the most legitimate showing. However, that is not the case, and as of now, the closest to first hand account we have depicts an actual fight in which Horus' armor is in fact damaged.

 

[RavenSupreme]

actually the vision makes it look as if the damage actually is crucial for the plot, seeing how specific it was described

infinitesimal crack in the most impenetrable armour. A life given willingly, a sacrifice on the altar of the future.A death for a death. One to provoke the other

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meaning the second fight between the emperor and horus which is described to happen

Only one battle in the history of the galaxy will ever eclipse its fury, and it will be fought in the same place in a matter of moments

shortly after sanguinius death, resorts on that specific crack. making it a 100 per cent PIS moment. since sanguinius death and sacrifice lead to horus downfall. "a death for a death"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"A death for a death. One to provoke the other" is, I'm fairly sure, used to imply it's part of what pushed the Emperor to realize Horus had to be put down, because initially, he couldn't bring himself to hurt his favored son. It also specifically uses the word "provoke".

 

[RavenSupreme]

the entire thing as a whole is not only just a vision instead of a 100 % happened event but the quote itself could be interpreted in many different ways, leading to just another reason as of why we should leave the fingers from it until we get the actual description in the new lore

especially that in other sources a terminator brother is depicted as the "trigger" which causes the emperor to kill his son. not sanguinius.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Many quotes can be interpreted in different ways, but I don't believe that means we should ignore them, entirely.

Though it would probably be good to get more opinions on the new info we both posted.

 

[RavenSupreme]

yeha. the quote itself was never up to discussion up until now

if the quotes and feat contradict each other - we can not take them for sure either tho.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Should we ask other staff for some input or just wait?

 

[Promestein]

I still support the changes. As with Azathoth, I trust the vision - vague or not - more than a single sentence from White Dwarf, and previous points still stand.

 

[Antvasima]

I am starting to lean more towards Raven's interpretation now. If this was just a vision, newer lore contradicts it, and it likely happened due to faulty power-scaling and Plot Induced Stupidity (which, as Raven says, are extremely common within fiction), we should probably stick to "At least 5-B. Possibly higher" to be on the safe side.

Our site isn't particularly reliable in lots of cases due to that the staff do not know enough about all franchises, or have the time to check them, but we should at least try our best to be rational and unbiased.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If this was just a vision, newer lore contradicts it, and it likely happened due to faulty power-scaling and Plot Induced Stupidity (which, as Raven says, are extremely common within fiction)

That's the thing, though. Newer lore doesn't contradict it. This is the closest thing that we currently have to a first hand look at the fight, and it doesn't portray Sanguinius getting completely bodied in a nanosecond. All the newer lore (which isn't from the Horus Heresy novels like this is, btw) says is that "Horus easily killed Sanguinius", which as I've already pointed out, is entirely compatible with the vision (again, closest thing we have to actually seeing the fight). I'm pretty sure only being able to superficially damage the guy who then proceeds to kill you still falls under the "contemptuous ease" category.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if this is the only feat that portrays Sanguinius and comparable characters on this level, it may very well be a plot-induced outlier to make the story more interesting.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I don't really know if you can call it PIS or an outlier when the lowest other showing Sanguinius has is being beaten by one of the most powerful Bloodthirsters in existence after being ambushed (who he later beat in a fair fight, anyway). It's also not like Sanguinius won, or really did anything of any major importance here except become a martyr, which he very well could have done without putting up a fight. Yet when we see the vision, he's clearly fighting back, albeit doing very little.

I feel this is similar to something like the battle against Commander Dante and the daemon Skarbrand. The only account of the fight given is second hand, and all it amounts to is "Dante won". Because of this, we don't know exactly how the fight went and can't really get anything from it other than that Dante ended up winning.

However, in this case, we have a second hand account that just amounts to "Horus easily won and Sanguinius could only cut his armor". That is far from a first hand account, and thus a lot of assumptions could be made. Unlike the other fight, we actually get a vision of this one, and said vision backs up EXACTLY what the second hand accounts said. Horus and Sanguinius fight, Horus overpowers him after Sanguinius makes only a single bit of damage to his armor, Horus kills him. Simply because Sanguinius actually puts up a fight against Horus is not included in sentences which amount to "Horus killed Sanguinius" does not make it untrue, especially since, as I said, this is currently the closest depiction of the actual fight we have, which makes disregarding it for single sentences in codecies and magazines which don't even contradict it...incredibly odd.

Also, we are talking about a tier so wide that each Primarch could be a thousand times stronger or weaker than another and still all fit into the tier.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, okay, I am obviously not well informed (in fact, I do not like the franchise in the first place), and your second point may be true, but regarding the first: Do we have any other indications of Sanguinius or other characters of his level reaching star-level power, or have they strictly been displayed as planetary threats?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The Primarchs (surprisingly) actually have very few impressive battle feats which don't involve scaling. That said, most of them have very few low showings, either. I think the best display of raw power would be a wounded Magnus and Russ exchanging blows which began to tear apart Prospero or the Lion and Luther's fight causing their planet to be destroyed. Most of them lack AoE and focus more in AP. In fact, IIRC, Horus has very, very few non-scaling feats, but is always regarded as the strongest, and Chaos Horus beat the Emperor to near death. Most good tier 4 AoE feats come from the Emperor or C'Tan shards.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. This is turning quite troublesome to evaluate properly. Either we can scale Sanguinius and his ilk, or we cannot due to Plot Induced Stupidity and improper in-story power-scaling. Perhaps the neutral option of "At least 5-B. Possibly up to 4-B" with explanatory footnotes is the best option after all?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hmm. This is turning quite troublesome to evaluate properly. Either we can scale Sanguinius and his ilk, or we cannot due to Plot Induced Stupidity and improper in-story power-scaling. Perhaps the neutral option of "At least 5-B. Possibly up to 4-B" with explanatory footnotes is the best option after all?

I do think that option is most fair, actually.

I also had forgotten there is one instance where Ferrus Manus (one of the Primarchs) supposedly defeats what seems to be a C'tan shard (look at the first key for this guy), but I'm more inclined to believe that to be either PIS or just a really weakened shard, as they get severely weaker with hunger.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Also, would it be alright for me to move the characters from "Likely up to 4-B" to "Possibly up to 4-B" along with adding the note?

 

[Antvasima]

That seems acceptable, yes.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have done so, as well as added this note to the Primarchs' pages.

"Due to the varying levels of power the Primarchs have been displayed at and the inconsistency among showings and versions of lore, this profile accounts for both this Primarch's lower and higher ends."

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

No problem.

 

[RavenSupreme]

somehow all the changes on the profiles are made whenever i am not online lol

firstly, we dont have the term "possibly" in our current attack potency chart. also the description of sanguinius fighting horus for a lenghty period of time is not accurat since we dont know for how long they fought. it could be just some clashes -> exchange of words -> death (aside from just happening in a vision of an astropath, which is not the best source of credible information friendly spoken)

secondly: it is as aza has said - regardless if old lore or new lore - the primarchs have never been more than a planetary thread in every description. if we now add a note regarding inconsistencies we have to keep in mind that the sole purpose of that note is to justify one single instance which is dangerously close to a PIS moment

i dont know about you but when every feat, quote, statement and description points in one direction and only one thing points in one direction we take that usually as outlier, hyperbole and PIS (remember muten roshi blowing up the moon. it was both: PIS and outlier - PIS for goku to transform back, and outlier since we havent seen similar things until years later in the story)

and here it is the same. PIS for the common brothers-duel in fiction. and outlier since never before in the entire verses lore was a similar level of power output displayed by any of the primarchs. in fact: it might even be that the wound was inflicted with his durability bypassing attack since we get - yet again - no clear description of how it happened

i have to stick to my initial objection

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm fairly certain we have a good number of pages which still use "possibly" instead of "probably" simply for convenience's sake, even if it's not part of the current AP chart.

I could have sworn I changed that to just "fought Horus", but I will change that, now. EDIT: Ah, I see I missed it in the durability section.

The note isn't to justify a single instance. It's to justify both the potential high and potential lower ends. I still cannot see how said moment would be PIS when the only real importance of it was the death of Sanguinius, which would have happened had he done a lot of damage or only the smallest amount.

Roshi's feat is considered an outlier because later, a stronger character struggles to reach city level at his full power. That is not the case, here. IIRC, Sanguinius was only ever really defeated aside from this time by Ka'bandha, who not only got the drop on him, but is also described as one of Khorne's most powerful servants. Not to mention that unlike the future Grey Knights, Sanguinius didn't have anti-daemon powers or a sharpened spear of a Brother Captain's bones/daemon kryptonite. He just kind of beat him up and broke his spine.

Again, I only ever recall mention of a single technique of Sanguinius' which can be taken as durability negating, and it specifically had to do with the vaporization of organic matter.

 

[RavenSupreme]

but if sanguinius were possibly up to 4B he should have absolutely stomped khabanda, who is depicted as a moon / planet level character and hence about a million times (literally) weaker in terms of powerscaling. yet he got still beaten from him.

and khabanda was in later cases not only defeated from "grey knights" who slay demons on a regular base and are suited for it, but also from regular marines. making the whole cosmic level attack potency just a bit more unbelivable, since on the other hand when khabanda would be on par with 4b characters, regular marines should stand no chance at all (not even the exemplar)

not to mention, sanguinius fought khabanda twice. and even the second time was considered a hard fight. with such superior AP he should and could have one-shot him. especially seeing as it was the siege of terra, meaning the most important battle in the existence of the entire verse.

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as for the "possibly" matter..we should search them up and redo them then. i just took a look at the AP chart and was not aware that not all profiles are already updated

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Couldn't that problem just be solved by considering that Ka'bandha at that level? He's much, muuuch stronger than a normal Bloodthirster, and the lore seems to put him on a pedestal next to An'ggrath, meaning he should probably be on par with Daemon Prince Angron. Sanguinius is an immensely skilled fighter, and it's not unlike him to be capable of besting foes even if they have him slightly beat in strength.

Ka'bandha was, to my knowledge, beaten by Grey Knights one time, and the Sanguinor himself, another. I don't remember any no-name marines taking him down, but even so, is it not much more logical to write THAT off as PIS than something like Sanguinius fighting Horus? I mean, Cato Sicarius ganking a Transcendent C'tan doesn't make C'tan not powerful. It's just a moment of PIS heroism for Sicarius.

What's our new word for "possibly", again? "Probably"?

 

[RavenSupreme]

well grey knights struggle to defeat even regular greater demons, aside from being specially trained against them and no name greater demons being nothing more than moon level entities (see for reference the first grey knights novel)

the fact that they still manage to defeat khabanda is yet another indicator that he is not on such a level. after all the AP chart means how much potency he can unleash too level certain things in a single blow. neither sanguinius, grey knights, khabanda or regular marines are on a level to destroy an entire solar system with one blow. its simply not possible and has never happened. ever

the same way sicarius defeating a ctan is regarded PIS, the same way the fight between brother primarchs is PIS.

the more we dive into comparisons and cross-scaling we get more and more indications which speak even further against the solar system tier and confirm the moon/planet level tier

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yeha i think probably is the new term

 

[Antvasima]

RavenSupreme is correct that we use "At most", not "Possibly". Sorry about the confusion.

Anyway, the two of you will have to come to an agreement, since I am not well informed enough to be of much help.

 

[Lina_Shields]

So, why do you not consider the grey knights defeating Khabanda an outlier? Considering that you think that the description of Horus/Sanguinus fight was an outlier. Perhaps the grey knights feat is PIS as well.

 

[RavenSupreme]

khabanda got bested at kalagazaar and at baal after the heresy. always by regular marines and grey knights alongside the "exemplar"

what is more likely?

a moon level / planet level entity fighting twice against another moon / planet level entity and nearly killing each other (sanguinius lost the first fight and won the second) and then said moon / planet level demon returning on two different occasions to be defeated by trained soldiers who deal with moon / planet level threads

or a solar-system buster who fails to kill regular marines (yes, he fought regular blood angels too) but call everything "outlier"?

the khabanda incident does not help the case of solar-system primarchs at all, seeing his bad track record post-heresy when faced against lower tier foes.

 

[Antvasima]

And now I am starting to lean towards Raven's interpretation once more...

Again, the two of you will have to try to come to an agreement.

 

[RavenSupreme]

to be fair: all upgrade and changes which were made in this thread were made without me noticing. it was always when i was offline / to bed

seeing i am pretty much the only one who argued with aza over the topic it feels werid seeing the decisions being made over my head

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I have repeatedly stated, my sense of judgement is rather unreliable nowadays, unless it is a topic that I am well informed about.

 

[RavenSupreme]

What do you think should be the approach? i am contesting the made changes, especially since they were made when i could not give my input (ofc. not intentional)

should we reverse them until this topic is settled?

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it is up to Azathoth. I don't know which pages that need to be changed. Although changing the "Possibly" to "At most" seems appropriate.