VS Battle Rules Loophole: Eternal Moment Paradox

[NeoSuperior]

So I noticed an issue about Medaka's ability to "erase her own time": It can cause a problematic situation that the current rules are not accounting for. I dubbed it the "Eternal Moment Paradox".

Appearently Medaka can use her ability "All Fiction" to "erase her own time" which according to knowledgable members of Medakaverse seems to amp her speed up to infinite and by-pass the speed equalization restriction, since it's a speed-amp and it's not really timestop either since it appearently only affects herself and not others. Actually, since some knowledgeable members also claim that it works "retroactively" and is therefore faster than any "instantanous" actions, it might possibly even be considered a speed amp that increases speed to immeasurable. Also it can be activated via thought. And since Medaka's stamina is infinite and no limits where given for the ability, it can supposedly be active forever.

Whether such a thing is even allowed or not is beside the point. What's notable here is the following scenario:

Suppose Medaka, in a form that can use the speed amp, has a match with someone else who, as it turns out during the match, doesn't get affected by any of Medaka's actions no matter how long she tries to beat him, let's call that enemy "Opponent X". This scenario also requires that both participants are bloodlusted, speed is equalized and that Opponent X's own speed is less than Infinite and also got no speed amps that can raise him to that speed.

Now here is the problem: Unless Opponent X can somehow win the match in the first thought and somehow by-pass the speed-amp that can be upheld with no limits, appearently, then we arrive at the bizarre scenario that Medaka keeps up her speed amp and never releases it, keeping the current moment active forever, since releasing it would be akin to CIS or PIS. But since it's explicitly stated not to affect the enemy and only herself, it cannot be considered that the enemy is incapped, BFRed or sealed, instead it's just Medaka moving with a speed that in a single moment she can take infinite actions before Opponent X can even do a single thing.

So what would the result of this be? I don't think it can just be deemed inconclusive, since the opponent is in no way restricted and Medaka cannot do anything to Opponent X whatsoever. What would the result be? There don't seem to be any rules concerning how to deal with such a situation.

Also what about Medaka "winning" that way? For anyone who got less speed than infinite, the only way to win would be to somehow kill her before she can use it, but according to knowledgable members even that would likely fail most of the time due to the "retroactive nature" of the speed-amp making it "faster than any instantanous actions", so it's basically a speed-blitz. Yet the knowledgable members also claim that this should still be counted as a full-fledged non-stomp win because she's supposedly "only using a speed amp" and that it supposedly doesn't affect any victory conditions that the opponents might have.

Basically the only ones who can actually score an outright win against that are:

• Those whose speed are already on the level that Medaka's speed amp rises it to, making the amp meaningless due to speed equalization to the speed of the faster individual
• Those who got a first-thought instant-kill attack with immeasurable speed that works against yet undetected targets 4km away
• Those with some sort of automatic attack reflection ability that cause direct damage to the attacker

I'd like to know what the staff and the members of this wiki think about these things. I mean having bloodlusted Medaka being broken beyond belief certainly wouldn't make her all that "special", considering how characters like Reinhard or God Emperor are left as they are, but I think the Eternal Moment Paradox at least should warrant a discussion, the whole win-conditions and speed-blitzing aside.

Not explicitly asking for content revision here, only want to see the opinions of staff and wiki members, which is why this was posted in General Discussion instead of Content Revision.

 

[Antvasima]

From what I remember, Medaka and Kumagawa don't really enhance their own speeds in that manner, they can simply erase the time that they did something so it appears like they did it instantly.

For example, they could have a 2 hours long fist-fight with somebody, and then finally prevail, but after the fight was done, they could erase the time that the fight took place in, to make it appear like they won instantly to any onlookers.

 

[NeoSuperior]

So it would be Memory Erasure via Time Manipulation and/or Causality Manipulation rather than a speed amp?

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Can't any character with immeasurable speed ignore incapacitation, as, once the seal is broken, they can go back to before the time limit was up?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

@Ant That would make the ones who partook in the combat know what happened. We already know that's not the case as Aki Jakago didn't notice anything.

It is generally accepted that Medaka and Kumagawa erase their "personal time". As in they erase the time they need to complete actions. So if the action is "Given 3 days i can move from A to B" if All Fiction erases 3 days requirement it becomes "I move from A to B in 0 time". So their actions would not require any time to perform/can be performed in 0 seconds or instantly. That's the explanation the majority of the medaka box supporters agreed upon.

 

[Antvasima]

No, the people who took part in the combat would also have their time erased, and as such not remember anything that took place. Please do not try to overcomplicate a rather straightforward ability,

 

[NeoSuperior]

So would that be Time Manipulation or Causality Manipulation? Or would resistance toward either be enough to defend against it? Or is it something else entirely? What about range?

Also in what interval can it be used and can it be stopped even without resistance if Medaka gets killed before she can erase the passed time?

 

[Ogbunabali]

No, the people who took part in the combat would also have heir time erased, and as such not remember anything that took place. Please do not try to overcomplicate a rather straightforward ability,

If this is true Kumagawa would need a lot of his matches to be removed.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No, the people who took part in the combat would also have heir time erased, and as such not remember anything that took place. Please do not try to overcomplicate a rather straightforward ability,

Wouldn't that allow characters to react to him though? He completely blitzed Aki's crew.

 

[NeoSuperior]

The problem here is that the whole "retroactive" part can't just be dismissed as "not affecting others". For example if the activation of the ability also erases the short moment you needed to think of activating it, but were observed during that moment, then according to what I read here, it would "undo" that moment of observation and affect the observer in the sense that he/she forgets that moment of observation.

In other words, the ability definitly affects others and can therefore be resisted.

Moreover it's only an ablity to "erase" things, not to move backwards in time (i.e. it's not immeasurable speed), it's very far reaching to claim that this is only affecting the user of the ability if it can make others forget things.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Who ever said it can move backwards in time?

 

[Antvasima]

Wouldn't that allow characters to react to him though? He completely blitzed Aki's crew.

Yes, but he couldn't blitz the hammerspace weapons expert after he trained to get stronger.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes, but he couldn't blitz the hammerspace weapons expert after he trained to get stronger.

Im sorry but i don't understand which part you're talking about. Could you be a lil more specific? Im having trouble realizing which case you're talking about.

 

[Antvasima]

Munakata Kei

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Yes but that was when he didn't have All Fiction. He was fighting purely with screws that's why him dying in that fight was such a big deal. Or more like he didn't know he had all fiction.

That just goes to prove my point. If Misogi 2 months before joining the academy could blitz 4 people, but later on fights head on against Munakata, it just proves that "All Fiction on time" makes him faster, rather than just erase the event after it had happened.

 

[TriforcePower1]

He only had his weakened All-Fiction at the time. It's most likely that, given he cannot erase stuff people care about with the weakened All-Fiction, he couldn't erase his own time as he technically cares about it.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He only had his weakened All-Fiction at the time. It's most likely that, given he cannot erase stuff people care about with the weakened All-Fiction, he couldn't erase his own time as he technically cares about it.

During the fight with Munakata no one knew he had All Fiction at all (him included). It was after the fight that they realized he had a weakened All Fiction.

 

[TriforcePower1]

He actually got it back at the end of the fight, didn't he?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He actually got it back at the end of the fight, didn't he?

Yep, as the fight ends, he resurrects and Munakata leaves.

 

[Elizhaa]

There was a staff thread discussion thread toward this topic. We discuss if the speed/time power lead to a speed stomp that it was restricted from the rule, I believe

• Speed Blitzing and Time Manipulation

 

[NeoSuperior]

Who ever said it can move backwards in time?

You did. Well not directly, but you said something along the lines of it "activating faster than instant" in a speed equalized match. Speed equalized means that the time the characters need to activate an "instant-effect" ability should be exactly equal. However disregarding the speed-equalized time a character takes to activate an ability and only focusing on the ability's own inherent activation time being "instant" (= 0 seconds). Then you'd realize that anything "faster than instant" would need to move backwards in time, since you can't get lower than 0 without moving into the negative numbers.

Granted, you were also refering to something you supposedly heard from somewhere else, so that could have just been wrong.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You can be practically faster than "instant" even without being immesurable. I will give you a simpler example.

Think of what would happen if a character with infinite speed were to race against a character who is omnipresent on a 3D scale (so he is everywhere in the physical universe). Who would be faster? While logically the Infinite Speed character wouldn't need "more time" (0 seconds) than the omnipresent character to reach anywhere, the omnipresent would still be faster as he would have already been at the destination before the infinite speed character.

Retroactive abilities work similarly. They are not necessarily faster than instant, but they work as if they were. Now back to medaka.

All Fiction can erase something or someone from the entire timeline. So if All Fiction erases someone it will be as though they never were there in the first place or never existed. Now let's say Medaka fights someone with death manipulation that's instant and thought based.

If Medaka and Him think and activate at the same time, even though their abilities activate at the same time, All Fiction would triumph because if All Fiction erases the guy, it will be as if he never were there, consequently as if he never activated his ability in the first place. In this case erasing him, means erasing everything he has done, including him activating his ability. So once Medaka thinks "something that has never been there" will logically precede "something that just got there". That is the idea of "retroactive". It is not immesurable it's just "reaching it in 0 time" versus "always having been there".

I hope you find it easier to understand now. Medaka is just an example btw, there are tons of other characters who can affect the present by messing with the past, such chain reactions are treated as Retroactive and faster than Instant.

 

[NeoSuperior]

That interpretation only amplifies the fact that this retroactivity affects the senses of an observer. What happens to the observer who literally "witnessed" Medaka activating the ability, a scene which was afterwards "undone" to never have existed? There are two possible versions of the observer now: The one who saw the "deleted" ability-activating Medaka and the one who did not see her because it was erased. At that point you can no longer claim that it "doesn't affect others".

You need to resolve this contradiction if you want to keep claiming that it's a speed amp, or amend the whole retroactivity issue.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Erasing someone obviously affects others though. I am arguing in a sense of if Medaka instantly erases someone vs Someone tried to do something to Medaka. From a time flow kind of perspective who would be faster. And the answer is Medaka.

 

[NeoSuperior]

Then it's not just a speed amp anymore though and can be resisted. I thought the whole idea was "it's a speed amp because it only affects Medaka herself"? This is becoming quite contradictory.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Dude im not talking about speed amp.

All Fiction can:

1) Speed Amp

2) Instantly erase people from the timeline.

Both erasures have the same qualities of being retroactive. I gave you the example with erasing people because it's easier to understand. Im not talking about the speed amp.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I was talking about the speed amp, because I doubt that the erasure of someone unknown 4km away without any sort of farsight ability or ESP is even possible in the first place, or do you mean if Medaka got handed a bounty sheet of some space pirate on the other side of the universe with only general direction mentioned, that she could just erase them too?

That aside, in the first place this thread is about the possible logical contradiction caused by the speed amp being enternally active while (bloodlusted) Medaka faces someone who IS NOT AFFECTED BY HER CAUSALITY MANIPULATION, nor her sealing, nor any other ability, in case that wasn't evident enough from my OP. What happens then?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Again the speed amp "has the same retroactive effect". It was just easier to explain with erasure. If medaka erases time, time logically never was there and will therefore kick in faster than something which was just activated. This is law of causality btw, not how it looks to outsiders.

 

[NeoSuperior]

Seems iffy to me. If "Opponent X", who resist Medaka's causality manipulation, got some passive ESP that enables the observation, before either Opponent X or Medaka were able to make any moves, and then Medaka's "scene" of activating All Fiction is retroactively removed... what would happen? Does it get erased but Opponent X can still "remember" it alongside the "new" version where Medaka was already away from there retroactively? Or would the very fact that this scene was observed, and the observer being able to resist the erasure that would normally make Opponent X lose their memories of this observation, cause the effect of All Fiction not to activate in the first place? Or would Opponent X be dragged into the deleted time by observing it and gain the same speed amp?

There are many ways to interpret it, but I don't think it can just be disregarded like that. It NEEDS to be addressed! Since depending on how you view it, it could be a scene that literally breaks causality. Like opening a Schroedinger's Catbox and finding both a living and a dead cat within at the same time even though only 1 cat was put inside.


That aside, I still want an answer from you on how you think the situation should be handled if we suppose that the speed amp works as you claim it does, but none of bloodlusted abilities work on Medaka's opponent, the main purpose of the thread: What I call the "Eternal Moment Paradox". Medaka tries for all eternity within this single moment to kill her opponent, but all her attacks get nullified every single time by her opponent's resistances. The speed amp never gets dispelled so the moment never ends. But that's not a win for her, even an incon would not be warrented, since that'd be favoring the subjective perspective of Medaka and ignore that of her opponent. So... what do you think should happen?

 

[Firephoenixearl]

No memory erasure is involved, it's just that if it never was there means it was there before instant. This is more of a rule so don't ask me about it.

Well not exactly. If medaka inf speed amps she doesn't win through incap, because that requires time to pass. During medakas speed amp time doesn't pass, it stays at 0. So no she cannot score an inconc if she can't do anything to her opponent.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I understand that it's confusing, but anyone who resist causality manipulation wouldn't give a damn about it "not happening", they'd observe the short "speed equalized thought unit" that Medaka takes to activate All Fiction, which THEN retroactively deletes the events that happen. It'd be fine if the opponent was someone who causality manipulation works on, but if they resist it...


As for the paradox scenario, yes that's what I was saying. Time doesn't pass. And? What happens? Bloodlust forbids Medaka to give up, so Medaka never "ends her turn" so to speak. It basically "breaks the game". I am asking you how you think this should be handled if such a situation comes up in a VS match.

 

[Elizhaa]

NeoSuperior, true any characters resisting abilties like causality manipulation should see what is happening. Also, I believe in a small part someone who resist TIme Stop should see what is happeing as welll.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

You can't resist what doesn't affect you.

Inconc would be possible, but a lot of characters with time stop can do that.

 

[NeoSuperior]

It does affect an observer's senses though. And said observer resists causality manipulation. So what happened to the "deleted" moment that this observer/enemy should have seen? You can't just say that he/she never gets to see it "because causality", because these senses definitly at one point captured the moment that All Fiction was used before that moment was deleted and the observer also happens to be someone who resists effects based on causality.

 

[Elizhaa]

It does affect an observer's sense though. And said observer resists causality manipulation. So what happened to the "deleted" moment that this observer/enemy should have seen? You can't say "because causality", because these senses belong to someone who resists effects based on causality.

Yes, this assessement is correct. Characters with Acauslity Type 4/5 or those with resistances like from Acausality Type 4/5 should resist it:

Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.

 

[NeoSuperior]

What about the other Acausality Types? What about those who resist Causality Manipulation?

 

[Elizhaa]

What about the other Acausality Types? What about those who resist Causality Manipulation?

Those who resist Causality Manipulation should resist it effect, also.

Acausality Type 1 and 3 depends on the characters' Time-related resistance.

Type 2 should resist Medaka's tiem effect in my view since they only exist in the present, paradoxically.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I don't think you're familiar with casualty manip of this type af you don't seem to be getting what I'm saying.

 

[NeoSuperior]

I know you want to say that it "only affects themselves" in the case of the time erasure, i.e. the supposed speed amp. However the whole "retroactive" nature of it means that it impacts the observed reality of an observer with Causality Manipulation Resistance. Because you literally cannot delete the moment of All Fiction's activation without "undoing" the observation beforehand as well. It's the huge elephant in the room that cannot just be ignored.

 

[Elizhaa]

Firephoenixearl and NeoSuperior, it definitely affect the observer hence why the application is speed boost from their perpective, if the observer doesn't have the proper resistances.