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Verse Equalization

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It's really not though, as the match is a stomp either way.

Thing is, not every ability has to be "fair". Should Ahzek Ahrima lose his precog because he can stomp people with it? Should The Warpriest lose his immunities because he's too hard to damage? Should I be able to say that Nicol Bolas can't use most of his spells just because they make many matches unfair? This can be said about any sort of hax. Hell, should Arceus not be able to nullify abilities? Should Kairos Fateweaver be reduced to just another gigafoe 4-B? Why should the convenience of matchmaking take priority here when it doesn't anywhere else?
 
Sometimes, matches are stomps. The solution is not to gimp a character, whether its due to their biology or not, but instead to just move on, accept that that's not a balanced battle, and use someone else.
 
Also your Naruto example way above isn't really right. Not everybody has Chakra, everybody relevant has chakra. That is very different from humanity just being fundamentally different in the verse or something.
 
I mean, there is an issue here. I usually interpreted that they should be only similar things to, but it usually does not end up working that way.

Take Stands from Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Most people have it so that SBA would have character be able to hurt them, despite there being several other power systems in the verse such as Hamon, Spin, Vampirism/The Pillarmen, and various other things, yet we still assume that everyone fighting a stand should be able to hurt them when this fankly would not be the case.

Perhaps this is more the interpretation of SBA than SBA itself
 
Either way, thats not the point. Use someone else more to Ichigo's tier if not Saitama and its exactly the same result.

Very big false equivalancies for all of those characters, especially Arceus.

Precoginiton is a legit ability and isn't based on a natural mechanic of the verse itself (ghosts in bleach do not actively choose to remain undetectable to humans, its not even an ability for them.). And Precognition doesnt make it impossible for matches against other verses from happening.

Immunity? Unless its for Soul or Mind Manipulation via lacking a soul/mind, yes he should lose it because Immunities are NLFs. If resistances, then no they can stay. Like Precog, its a fair ability.

For the spells, you'll need to be much more specific for me to take this point seriously.

And for Arceus, Power Nullification is a legit power too.

The one thing your not understanding is that these haxes may be OP, but they do not prevent matches from ever being possible for them. Bleach's does, immensely. Because you can't fight against something that doesn't exist for you. Basically, the former only causes stomps for some characters. The latter prevents a battle from ever being possible whatsoever.
 
Wokistan said:
Also your Naruto example way above isn't really right. Not everybody has Chakra, everybody relevant has chakra. That is very different from humanity just being fundamentally different in the verse or something.
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Doesnt really change anything either way. Not all chakra users have Six Paths Chakra as the latter is a speicifc form of it for the strongest characters in the verse. Like KI and God KI in Dragon ball.

It's not the standard to be given in verse equalization.
 
Too bad for them then.

Ahzek's precog is insane, and causes most matches where he wins to be incredibly one sided. A Culexus Assassin's abilities are also due to the nature of their being. I can't restrict those things now can I?

Immunities, resistances, this is pedanticism. His really powerful resistances combined with invulnerability, along with legit soul immunity due to his soul not being in his body, mean that tons of characters can't do anything to him and he stomps a lot of people. They're also part of a natural mechanic of the verse, that being the Sword Logic (Sword Logic's explicitly stated to be a neutral thing so it can be equalized either way, however without having killed quadrillions of beings you're not gonna match up to Warpriest in this regard and you may as well not have any at all). I can't restrict every ability he has just because its due to him being very proficient with the mechanics of his verse.

This will take me far too long but Bolas has stuff like fatehax, noncorporeality, mid godly (though that one's kinda weird), etc that can make matches unwinnable. Can't restrict that.

You know what else are legit powers? Invisibility and intangibility

Except many of them do, and in many cases, cause more stomps than bleach dudes would have by default. Pretty sure more people can hit intangibles and bypass invis or have some sort of verse magic or whatever tha nthere are characters that can get past the 1-A immortality possessed by Horus Lupercal. Darth Nihilus's passive means he stomps a lot of people. That doesn't get restricted, he just has a lot of stomps. I don't see why we should restrict one type of ability for causing stomps when we don't do it to any other.
 
Doesnt really change anything either way. Not all chakra users have Six Paths Chakra as the latter is a speicifc form of it for the strongest characters in the verse. Like KI and God KI in Dragon ball.

It's not the standard to be given in verse equalization.


Actually, it does. The baseline for anyone in verse is not that of Chakra, the plot just doesn't focus on anyone without it. Therefore, power shall not be granted to the powerless because you want finding matches to be easier.
 
>Too bad for them then

Not too bad actually. We can't restrict an immense number of fights to give one verse an unfair advantage.

>Insane Precog

Which is again, no more unfair than Yhwach's Omniprecog and his NLFish power nulling. What exactly are even the mechanics of this Precog?

>Immunities, resistances, this is pedanticism

Not here it is. We treat them separately. Hell Immunity isnt even a legit thing here outside lacking a soul or mind.

Anyway, this still isnt the same as Bleach's mechanic. If he stomps a lot of peope with his hax, then he stomps a lot of people. That doesnt mean his abilities make an immense number of matches impossible to happen whatsoever like Bleach's mechanic would. Because unlike bleach, resistances can be bypassed/insufficient and his invulnerability only does so much like Invulnerability in general.

>What else are legit powers? Invisibility and Intangibility

Yes and the means of using and having those powers for Bleach are 100% unfair for literally more than half of fiction. Or any verse thats even remotely in the same tier as them. Plus, like I said, this isnt even an ability for Bleach Characters, its a disability for the fodder in their own verse.

Because those "stomps" don't apply to literally every single verse and their mother ever. A lot of stomps are one thing. Allowing an ability that will blatently disregard battles being possible for almost everyone ever are another thing. Unless tier 5 and below suddenly have countless verses of people being able to see and contact Bleach characters, its again being incredibly restricitve of matches ever being able to be done for Bleach.

>The plot just doesnt focus on anyone without it

Which means its not the standard. People with chakra are as thats the focus for Naruto. Ninjas using chakra for battling purposes. Not random everyday fodder.
 
Going to sleep, will respond to all of this tomorrow
 
Is the literal main argument here "a lot of matches would be stomps now"? We had this debate back then with Type 8/9 immortalities. It doesn't matter. We're not giving these verses any advantages, we're just giving the advantages we took away back. We're not doing this just to give them an "unfair advantage", we're doing this so fights are actually accurate and not artificially twisted just to have more matches. Accuracy > ability to make matches.

This is no different from the entire Yume Nikki verse now having access to OP Type 8, making matches with them nearly impossible. Or SMT with its High-Godly and Type 8. Like Woki said, too bad if it this causes stomp.
 
So then what about verse-related type abilities like for example Bleach characters being viewable by everyone to make matches actually possible to happen?

Because thats how we've always done this and thats whats still being done to my knowledge. Should we make Bleach characters non-exstent to those without spiritual abilities now?
 
So Bleach pretty much loses any possiblity of having matches here is what im seeing. That, or any verse with their energy = Reiatsu, which is pretty much all of them, should be able to see them as they'd gain Reiryoku automatically. Its either one or the other.

Also, I disagree with "accuracy>matches" since we pretty much twist stuff to make use of a characters abilities here even before this thread came into question. Unless Naruto characters for instance should lose their genjutsu hax since no one outside the verse has chakra or a chakra network to have Genjutsu work on them.
 
Again just complaining about "but what about the matches".

That's just part of the whole Verse Equalization thing that we're in the process of revising right now, so it's not really relevant to your argument.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
This is literally just complaining about OP powers + appeal to tradition. Something being OP and hard to counter =/= we should ban it. Again, this is not different at all from the Type 8/9 immortality.
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It's not that its hard to counter tho. It's impossible to counter it since its a verse mechanic involving people in their own verse.

So either we disregard it or we allow any verse that has energy that = Reiatsu to be able to see Bleach Characters.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Again just complaining about "but what about the matches".
That's just part of the whole Verse Equalization thing that we're in the process of revising right now, so it's not really relevant to your argument.
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What process? I don't recall a thread ever being made on to revise this unless you don't mind linking it here please.
 
So as I understand it, the argument is Accuracy vs Matches Would Be Difficult.

Well for starters, we're an indexing wiki that strives for accuracy, matches aren't as important. Just make matches that align better and not remove an ability for the sake of wanting matches.
 
It's not exactly that. It's about making sure that matches can have an even playing field. Do you think that everyone who will fight a Jojo character ever will be unable to fight back because "Only stands can hurt stands?" That's the type of verse specific thing that gets ignored.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
So as I understand it, the argument is Accuracy vs Matches Would Be Difficult.
Well for starters, we're an indexing wiki that strives for accuracy, matches aren't as important. Just make matches that align better and not remove an ability for the sake of wanting matches.
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Yes but the problem is, unless Verse Equalization allows the verse you want to fight against to allign with the said ability, it makes it nigh-impossible for any match at all happen. Period.

And the "indexing wiki" reasoning IIRC has nothing to do with vs matches, only for the pages. We're only talking about the matches aspect.
 
That's a NLF though,this is about certain mechanics like invisibility which is being restricted to make Matches fair.Equalizing energies shouldn't give everyone abilities they never had.Last I check we don't remove abilities from characters or the match is invalid.
 
Sigurd Snake in The Eye said:
That's a NLF though,this is about certain mechanics like invisibility which is being restricted to make Matches fair.Equalizing energies shouldn't give everyone abilities they never had.Last I check we don't remove abilities from characters or the match is invalid.
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And thats why this thread was created in the 1st place if im still on track with this.

As long as its an ability that isn't required to need specialized training and knowledge to use, it should be included in versus equalization for other verses or else it becomes unfair.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
It's not exactly that. It's about making sure that matches can have an even playing field. Do you think that everyone who will fight a Jojo character ever will be unable to fight back because "Only stands can hurt stands?" That's the type of verse specific thing that gets ignored.
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Well, you actually can feasibly fight a stand user even without a stand yourself. You just need to go for the user, not the stand. Gyro Zeppeli and Wekapipo both defeat stand users without a stand of their own, with Gyro only getting the powers of one at the very end of the part. Stands aren't the only thing in Jojo that are used to fight

Also, I think that it should be equalised to similar powers. Psychics can equalise to stands, for one
 
ShadowWarrior1999 said:
"Only stands can hurt stands."
Yeah, that's huge NLF territory right there.
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It is a NLF fallacy, but just for context, the rule even applies as there are characters who can destroy universes, and use multiverses as a defense
 
I thought the Stand Rule was only Stand Users can see Stands. Which would be similar to the prompt about invisible Bleach characters. You can hurt either if you can tag them, you can't see them though given the mechanics.
 
@Kukui Matches being nigh impossible due to a character's specific mechanics shouldn't discourage accuracy. Blame the author for making it so.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
I thought the Stand Rule was only Stand Users can see Stands. Which would be similar to the prompt about invisible Bleach characters. You can hurt either if you can tag them, you can't see them though given the mechanics.
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No. If you look at the rules of stands, its that Non Stand Users cannot see stands, and non stands cannot effect stands. I'll grab the scan real quick.
 
The whole point of verse equalisation is allowing matchups matchups to be possible afaik so I can't really act like Kukui's argument of matchups being near impossible to find are irrelevant...

I don't really have a good idea on who's right between the two sides atm but i will try to say my piece in all this after i have considered all the arguments here.
 
Iapitus The Impaler said:
No. If you look at the rules of stands, its that Non Stand Users cannot see stands, and non stands cannot effect stands. I'll grab the scan real quick.
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I was talking the Wiki rule about stands in matches, my bad.
 
IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 said:
@Kukui
Matches being nigh impossible due to a character's specific mechanics shouldn't discourage accuracy. Blame the author for making it so.
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No, not just a character, an entire verse, which we can't abuse to give them an unfair advantage or disadvantage. Should we ban a lot of Naruto characters abilities since they only work on chakra users in their verse to be accurate? Of course not. So why should we allow Bleach to be non-existent to any other verse (im using Bleach mostly because thats how this started in the other thread) ? There's a difference between putting abilities on pages (which is fine because, again, indexing wikia) and allowing them to be used in matches.
 
@Andytrenom

Thing with Bleach is they're invisible to people that lack a certain level of spirutal awareness the weakest being able to slighly feel a presence or outright seeing them,with current verse equaliztion your removing a power of the verse essentially (invisibility) and giving the opposition powers they've never had before.I'm fine with equalizating it with verse with people that can already see and sense spirits,because it's something they can already do so Bleach isn't given a handicap just so others can fight them.
 
For those who are just joining this, i'll bring you up to speed on why this thread was made.

In the previous bleach thread, I mentioned that Invisibility for Bleach characters should, when added in to the characters pages, be specified to only work against those with low-spiritual capabilities since thats how it works in Bleach's universe and that it wouldnt matter for vs matches due to Verse Equalization.

Woki disagreed saying that their invisibility should be applied to other verses without spiritual capablities and I disagreed with that saying Verse Equalization would still allow other verses to see Bleach characters, which resulted in this thread.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Saying that you need Bleach Reiatsu to see / hit a Bleach character is like saying that if you don't have Naruto Chakra you can't resist ANY Genjutsu. It's why verse equalization exists. To not give unfair advantages that would apply to an entire verse.
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Were not saying this at all your twisting the argument,were saying you shouldn't give other verses powers they don't have simply to have a battle,this is essentialy restricting abilities.
 
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