Verse Equalization

[Wokistan]

On the thread concerning Non-Physical Interaction in Bleach and Intangibilities for Souls, the discussion seems to have somehow shifted to this topic, where ProfessorKukui4Life argues that under Verse Equalization as a guideline, spiritual characteristics (in this case specifically the Reiryoku of Bleach) are instantly given to the opponent of such a character, regardless of their own characteristics in this regard. I disagree with this, and feel that Verse Equalization actually refers to similar mechanics being equated rather than any mechanic just being given to anybody, and it'd be nice to have a conclusive answer here.

Under Kukui's interpretation, an opponent of a Bleach character would be considered to have Reiryoku no matter what. Under my interpretation, while people like Dragon Ball Ki users, 40k Psykers, Naruto Chi users, etc would be eligible for this sort of equalization, it would not apply to people with no equivalent power to equalize in the first place, such as characters from Hotline Miami. Reading some of the stuff typed near the bottom of that thread may be helpful, discuss below, and stay civil.

Edit: If it's not clear, in the case of the former being our standard, I'll argue for the latter.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

One thing before I get to the topic.

Why did you tag and reference me in your OP? You didn't have to do that.

 

[Agnaa]

I thought rules like this, and stuff like "Anyone can see stands even if they're not a stand user" is because some versus have absolutely broken fodder, because they have a verse-specific mechanic which gives invisibility/invincibility.

I'm not familiar with Bleach at all, but isn't that the case there?

 

[Wokistan]

Nebulously saying "some people" is kinda sketchy. By putting you there, people can make sure I'm not trying to make you look bad or misinterpret you or whatever. I also refer to myself, as you can see.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Bleach characters can be touched under SBA and characters under SBA have Chakra if theyre not from naruto

 

[Wokistan]

If you want me to remove references to you I can just do that, but personally I'd much rather actually be mentioned if OP is gonna talk about stuff I said.

 

[Wokistan]

Bleach characters can be touched under SBA and characters under SBA have Chakra if theyre not from naruto

In general, or if they have some sort of equivalent energy/spirit/magic/whatever? If the former, why?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

In general, because otherwise they'd be impossible to have fights outside their own verse due to using a lot of verse-specific mechanics

 

[Yobo_Blue]

That sort of thing isn't valid reasoning if the summoner revisions were any indication.

 

[Wokistan]

Why not equate energies that are actually similar though, rather than just this blanket bestowal of powers? Generic spiritual energy/magic/whatever is common enough to not neuter the majority of matches, and if it's a legitimate advantage conferred by that that happens to give them a domineering boon against "muggles", why should that be taken away from them? Notice how we've been restricting fewer and fewer abilities over time, including stuff like 1-A immortalities. Why would that be any different?

Also, how do you reconcile this with Jojo, where numerous threads operate under the opponent not being able to see or directly interact with the stand?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Bleach characters can be touched under SBA and characters under SBA have Chakra if theyre not from naruto

And what of 6 paths Madara? are we going to randomly give people 6 paths chakra so they see and touch his Limbo clones?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Sigurd Dunno, maybe? I dont do naruto threads much so i dont know if thats a thing or not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And what of 6 paths Madara? are we going to randomly give people 6 paths chakra so they see and touch his Limbo clones?

False equivalancy and i'll explain why in a bit.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Weekly

It's not a thing,because then it wouldn't be Limbo anymore.The same for JoJo Stands as well if I remember.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

@Kukui How is that a false equivalency if you need specific powers to interact with the clones just like in Bleach or JoJo.

 

[AstralKing7]

why Is Naruto always being brought up ƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

 

[WeeklyBattles]

because there are a lot of powers in Naruto that dont work on non-chakra users

 

[Wokistan]

So why exactly should we get rid of their established weakness of needing the opponent to be powered? Can I just say that a Culexus Assassi's powers always work at max (they're more potent the stronger magically their opponent is), and as such they utterly obliterate the minds of "muggles" as opposed to how they're canonically only really really unpleasant to be around when you're not a psyker?

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Because Limbo is something that fits if you read the OP? lol

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Okay so for me, this is the reason why I stand for Verse Equalization to be what the OP lists and because Bleach was the prime topic, i'll be using it for my example.

Now obviously, im not saying that just because the verses are equalized, it means specific abilities from characters in that universe apply to every other verse. I agree it doesn't.

But when it comes to the case of Reiryoku, that is a different story. Why? Because unlike speicifc ablilities in Bleach that you have to train to use, like Kido, Hado, etc., Reiryoku is a generic universal concept with Bleach's energy source, Reiatsu. It's not something special that only speciifc characters have, nor is it something you have to train to specifically use. It's literally something that every single being in the Bleach universe has. Even the everyday humans and their mother have it. The only thing, that actually separates the fodders from the top dogs, is the level of their Reiryoku. Like humans not being able to see spirits because of their crap level spiritual capability and humans and up who can because they are spiritually talented. The level is the only difference. That doesnt change the fact that every single being in Bleach's universe has it and whenever Reiatsu is released, so is Reiryoku.

So my question is why would Reiryoku not apply to any other verses with characters who can manipulate their universe's spiritual energy? Like Chakra or KI. Like I said, Reiryoku is released when you release Reiatsu, it's that plain and simple. Reiatsu equals all other energies from all other verses because of our verse equalization. So if Reiatsu = lets say KI, and Dragon Ball Characters can release that KI, then there's no reason why they wouldnt be able to release Reiryoku's equivalent as they have the requirements of energy manipulation. And when I say characters, I mean characters who can actually use KI. Not Bulma, Chi-Chi or random fodders. If you can manipulate KI, your manipulating Reiatsu's equivalant, which means your using Reiryoku's equivalant.

This is especially glaring when the fact is the entire Bleach universe itself has Reiryoku. If we equalize Bleach with other universes, then every relevant fighter in those said universes have it too for this very reason.

@Sigurd mentioned Naruto's Six Paths chakra regarding Madara and I said i'd explain why its a false equivalancy to this.

Now unlike the case with Bleach's Reiryoku for example, the Six Paths chakra is not a universally generic energy source in Naruto.

Normal chakra is generic because every single person in the verse has it thanks to Hagoromo passing it onto them. However, Six Paths chakra is a specific special form of chakra that only the God-Tiers are able to possess (other than Boruto, Sarada and Himawari who only got maybe portions of it from their parents via birth). Six Paths Chakra is not something in the Naruto Universe that every Ninja has like the normal chakra, so when we equalize Naruto with that of other verses, Chakra would be considered equal to them but not Six Paths chakra. Just like how for DB, everyone here has KI but not God Ki (you could probably argue this for the verses who have deity-characters in them, but even that maybe a stretch since some characters don't have energy types that differ from their universe's normal people.)

 

[AstralKing7]

I mean in the case of limbo. It was even explained before if I remember correctly.

 

[Wokistan]

I'll respond to Kukui's post in a bit, but just remember this thread is not only to address bleach but the concept in general. While hashing out how we apply it to bleach is productive, it's probably best to start with a general guideline then go into exceptions.

 

[Antoniofer]

So, any example of what is being suggested exactly? I though that Bleach characters (I think Shinigamis, not sure, don't known about the verse) can be touched by normal people, but can only be see it by other spiritual beings. Is this thread trying to change something like that?

 

[Wokistan]

The OP near the bottom provides examples of two different views on this subject. The objective is to decide which one is the standard, as it is unclear.

 

[AstralKing7]

For example Saint Seiya characters like Hades who can null attacks that aren't Divine Cosmos

 

[Wokistan]

No, that is not really what the thread is about. It is whether verse equalization equates verse specific spiritual/whatever powers to everybody, or just those with a comparable spiritual whatever. I prefer the latter.

 

[Antoniofer]

Welp, your last example fit with the type of equalization that Anima has (Gnosis), so I think it could be better; I do not think it creates a massive not even moderate changes tho.

 

[AstralKing7]

Like Weekly said it's equalized with everyone cause it would be impossible to have a battle and for the sake of having a battle that's why we have SBA

 

[Wokistan]

It's really not impossible to have a battle though, given the abundance of stuff like this in fiction. This also creates really wonky scenarios with power absorbers and stuff, where they can absorb stuff that doesn't exist due to that. If we don't restrict stuff like 1-A immortality, I don't see why we should restrict the inherent benefits to being in one of these systems.

 

[AstralKing7]

How in the heck would someone like Saitama fight Ichigo?????

 

[Wokistan]

Planet busting

Or just don't use Saitama and use someone who has something you can equate

 

[AstralKing7]

That's not up to us tho. It's up to what the fans want to see and making it fair

 

[Wokistan]

No its very much up to us on our own site what matches we make.

Also with that specific one Ichigo doesn't really have any way to negate durability so its a stomp anyways.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Planet busting

For absolutely no reason? Not to mention Ichigo isnt strong enough to do that, nor is he willing to in character

>Or use someone who has something you can equate

Not how this works. Doing this would be uneblievebly restricitve toward characters Bleach can actually battle against here.

We're literally talking about a mechanic for characters that, in their verse, unless others have some spiritual capability you don't exist towards them. For fodders point of view in Bleach, spirits can't be seen, they can't be touched and cannot be sensed. Thats basically saying spirits don't exist to them as they cannot perceive them.

There's literally no way at all this mechanic is fair whatsoever in a vs match here.

 

[Wokistan]

Not Ichigo. Saitama can planet bust. A moon level could eventually break a planet though.

Nah. Spiritual/magical stuff is far more common then you'd think. You know what else is restrictive? 1-A immortalities and other amounts of excessive hax, yet we don't restrict that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Same thing really. Saitama especially.

And no, it doesn't matter if it's "more common than we think". It's still being incredibly restricitve on what matches are actually possible here and it's still a mechanic that is no way fair at all to make the battle possible in the first place.You can't pit someone against something that doesn't exist toward their point of view.

 

[Wokistan]

This isn't really relevant in the first place

Then don't. Pit them against someone they can actually fight just like you need to for any other match. I like some very haxxed verses, as you can tell from my profile, and that can make finding matches annoying. I can't just arbitrarily delete abilities of characters to find matches more easily, so why should that be the case here?

 

[Antoniofer]

I though that Bleach characters were invisible to the mortal eyes, not imperceptible, characters that do not rely in sight can still sense them; is no different that users with invisibility, although this is passive and can't be negated by conventional means.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Its a legit example to show why its wrong so yes its pretty relevant. Unless you seriously think randomly firing attacks around is considered a fair notable fight.

"Then don't" is, no offense, a lazy excuse to make use of an ability that is not only not fair, it's not even an ability really. I vehemently disagree with restricitng many fights just to give characters an unfair advantage to literally a majority of their battles. To keep it fair, we take the ability out and move on without it.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@Antoniofer

Not according to the previous thread. Bleach is getting Non-Physical Interaction and Invisibility for their spiritual characters since users consider bleach characters, like Hollows and Shinigami, to be intangible, invisible, and un-sensible to fodder.