Urahara vs Itachi

[Saitamax]

what i mean to say is..like, to break genjutsu the biju has to release their power direct inside the users body to disrupt chakra flow

from wat i recal, while they talk with them and give them power to use, there has never been any instance were a zanpakutou was able to manifest reiatsu by itself while the user was unconscious , asleep, etc. and in Urahara case i don't recall him even talking with his. though i may be forgetting...they depend on the user to do anything.

to disrupt genjutsu the zanpakuto spirit would need to release reiatsu within the user body (in reality, not their inner mental world), while the user is unconscious in real life. just talking wont do anything. also need to know to do this, becaus it is known genjutsu breaking method in naruto, but in bleach there isn't anything like it.

Lastly theres the issue that to cause disruption the chakra has to be different. (bijuus are wholly diferent beings). Zanpakuto spirit from what i remember are considered reflections of the user soul and their reiatsu is the same as their user's. (though they do have their own..its identical)

 

[Sora'sOther]

So all I'm hearing is more NFL genjutsu stuff right?

 

[Sora'sOther]

And looking at urahara's page, itachi is under his Notable Victories .....so why is this open again?

 

[Hiei312]

NFL? football?


you mean NLF? lol


the request to add urahara's victory was made when the topic had like 10 posts and almost no arguments...i already made a request to revoke it, or add it to inconclusive, as a lot of arguments have appeared since then and even in terms of votes it now should be very close.


the zanpakuto argument is good actually, and might work. i actually do believe Zanpakuto should be able to release reiatsu to break it. the problem being urahara has never shown a lot of interaction with his Zanpakuto spirit, just it being there doesn't guarantee it'll be able (or even aware of it) to help him immediately. the kyuubi never helped Naruto with genjutsu. even in bee's case where the hachibi is ALWAYS there talking with him literally 24/7, he was still rendered unconscious by sasuke's genjutsu for a good few seconds..he fell right by sasuke totally defenseless...if Sasuke was fighting to kill he could have sliced him on his way to the ground. (he had to capture bee alive in that scenario)

so the notion that a Zanpakuto (that is totally unfamiliar with genjutsu) would quickly think to do such a thing faster than the few seconds it'd take for itachi to kill him is a still very unlikely. (while in character, standard VS rules always assume that the characters are fighting to kill.)

and then there's another issue if Itachi uses Tsukuyomi rather than regular genjutsu (which there is a chance...he used tsukuyomi immediately on kakashi). Tsukuyomi happens instantly...so by the time they've broken out they would already have went through the entire thing.

 

[Sora'sOther]

Blame autocorrect not me, and I fail to see what's so funny... Anyway I'll continue this later I'm quite busy now

 

[Hiei312]

sorry, i didn't mean to sound insulting or anything


it was just funny to me because NFL is a football league.

 

[Nisemono96]

Either way Genjutsu wouldn't work.

Genjutsu is created when a Ninja controls the chakra flow of a target's cerebral nervous system, thereby affecting their five senses. See that is how it explicitly presented on how Genjutsu works.

After he and his brother defeated their mother, Hagoromo spread the gift of chakra amongst the populace of the Elemental Nations, even if they cannot mold it like Ninja can, most of all people in the E.N have at least a modicum of chakra and possess the pathways for it... Kisuke however, does not.

He doesn't possess the chakra pathways that Ninja have, he doesn't use chakra, and he certainly doesn't have any in his brain to be manipulated for the sake of Genjutsu. Like I mentioned before, Genjutsu has a certain defined parameters that must be met for to work, and anybody outside of the Naruto verse simply doesn't meet those parameters and are therefore immune to Genjutsu, which seems to be one of the largest arguments for the Naruto verse.

 

[Hiei312]

Your agument is correct, and that has already been brought up countless times in other topics

However Genjutsu is accepted to work as part of verse equalization rules. its simply treated as a telepathic power.

otherwise no one would even be able to perceive or interact with Bleach shinigamis as they are technically spirits. Flash wouldn't be able to use speed steal against non DC characters, etc. if we don't equalize verses it brings too many issues

 

[Nisemono96]

However Shinigami don't exist within and mess with peoples brains, as the Genjutsu necessary chakra does.

You say verse equalization but it seem like nlf, despite Genjutsu's clear defined limtation. Because now Genjustu merely works like Telepathy, see that is an upgrade that pushes into a difficult to counter position.

It wouldn't be so bad if it actually worked that, way but it doesn't. Genjutsu = Telepathy, means the latter has been upgraded for sheer convieniance.

 

[Hiei312]

uh..well..all i can do is bring up the rules...

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen. For example, characters from other verses will be assumed to be capable of perceiving spiritual creatures such as Shinigamis from Bleach.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses


you might think this is a bit unfair, but it would be even more unfair to completely remove one of the three major types of attack in naruto.it's not "just" for convenience...

Characters like Itachi whose almost entire fighting style relies on genjutsu would pretty much cease to exist..an Itachi without genjutsu isn't Itachi anymore. (as far as fighting goes)

 

[Nisemono96]

I know the rules, and it is a matter of convienience, for the sake of verse battles however it has defined functions.

A Shinigami is in effect all spiritual matter and energy, so if you equalize Reiryoku = Chakra in such a way there is no end to the manipulations a Genjutsu user could have on a Bleach figure who is pretty much composed of said energy.

And as a form of Telepathy that can now function of "equalized energies", they wouldn't need eye contact, at least not with Shinigami or other Spiritual beings since just any Gnejutsu user could screw their sense seven ways to sunday, over and over.

Genjutsu is a form of Yin Energy Manipulation, which is what a Ninja manipulates in a brain, and Yin is the Spiritual Aspect of Chakra energy. Shinigami are half composed of the stuff.

It hardly seems fair.

 

[Hiei312]

well..it isn't fair

but you have to agree it'd also be horribly unfair to remove genjutsu from mr genjutsu. it'd be like removing the healing factor from wolverine.

...maybe just ban high level genjutsu users like Itachi from fighting bleach characters? or at least just Itachi himself since others like Sasuke and Madara don't use it often enough for it to be "in character" in the start of the fight....


i'm not really sure. i don't think there's a great solution either way.

 

[Nisemono96]

To clarify my point, Chakra is a hybrid energy. Composed of two energies blended together to create the effects of various Jutsus. Genjutsu is different from normal Jutsu in that it doesn't generally create tangible effects like a normal Jutsu, which is because a Genjutsu is all mental. It is used solely with the Yin Energy component of Chakra.

Yin Energy is mental/spiritual enerhy to Yang's energies more physical forceful nature.

If you equalize Chakra to Reiryoku, you are in effect equalizing two energies to one energy for the purpose of "equal effectiveness". However since Shinigami only have the one energy, Reiryoku, they are equally effected by both normal Jutsu and Genjutsu and due to how Genjutsu works (controling the chakra flow of a target's cerebral nervous system), that would mean now that the Yin component of Chakra has been equalized to it, all Spiritual powers and being are now vulnerable to the Yin Manipulations of Chakra because those manipulations will be as real as other Jutsu.

Does that make sense? This equalization has in theory turned the illusory nature of Genjutsu into reality, since their is nothing to differentiate the affects of Jutsu from Genjutus any more since Chakra and it's base components have both been equalized to Reiryoku for affect.

 

[Hiei312]

i think ther are also rules to prevent that from going too out of control though

like, if Itachi has been shown to require eye contact to use genjutsu, he'll still need eye contact even if the equalization would otherwise make his genjutsu more effective. and the upper limits of his manipulation will still be dictated by whatever his best feats were in naruto.

similarly, genjutsu can't have physical effects in naruto, so it also shouldn't be able to even if the equalization would say so.


but yeah i get your point. we're transforming Yin into Reiryoku...and then we're also trnaforming yang into reiryoku...so we're turning 2 fundamental energies into one.

but as i said, i can't really think of a better solution,..if you just ban genjutsu from being used it'd be extremely unfair to Naruto characters (and Itachi especially)

 

[Nisemono96]

I suppose so but if Genjutsu is really their only strong point, there really isn't much point is there? They just aren't capable of putting up a fight if they cannot utlize their brain games and if they mindscrew their way to victory then it wouldn't have even been what one could call a "battle".

 

[Raito_Utopia]

urahara can use gigai when start of the battle to trick itachi , then he use bakudō #61: Rikujōkōrō to prevent the action of itachi , I suspect itachi cannot use susanoo and he is sealed by urahara's kido easy

 

[Hiei312]

sure, he could do all of that but its all out of character (esp the gigai thing..why would he even think to do that?).

as uninteresting as it is, based on what we've seen, the most likely outcome is that hes gonna start the fight trying to gauge Itachi at close range. and he's gonna look at his face because he has no reason not to (its just natural for everyone to look at their opponent's faces to see what they look like)..then he's gonna fall in genjutsu and get killed.

I agree with Nisemono that it is unfair, and i agree its not much of a battle.Itachi does tend to produce some really crappy fights..."opponent starts fight looking at Itachi's face and loses" isn't exactly a thrilling argument...but it's still true very often...so i still have to use it. >_>

 

[Raito_Utopia]

it is not all out of character , he did anything same did with aizen lol , ura do not make eyes with itachi immediately , he always covered his eyes with his hat and kido attack is not attack at close range , ura is faster , he use kido seal him very quickly

 

[Kawaru_Shotomata]

I don't know why this topic continues , it is be concluded

 

[Hiei312]

Aizen is someone Urahara had every reason to absolutely hate even then after his first attack he sepnt 6 or 7 pages talking to him while looking directly at him.

same with his recent fight against Askin...lot of talking.

he mostly fights at close range. even while attacking eye contact could just happen at random. for example, bee got caught in genjutsu literally in the middle of a jumping attack, because he wasn't making an effort to actively avoid Itachi's gaze. Itachi had to tell him "don't look at my eyes". Deidara got caught before the fight had even started because he was talking to him and Itachi had cheaply already placed genjutsu on him while they were talking.

Urahara also doesn't know Itachi is immortal. even if his initial attack hits, it's not gonna kill..then he's literally touching itachi and eye contact is very very likely to just happen naturally. his first attack isn't gonna be a sealing Kido. why would he do that? he thinks Itachi is just a guy who can die like any other.

 

[KazarianFahs]

I suppose so but if Genjutsu is really their only strong point, there really isn't much point is there? They just aren't capable of putting up a fight if they cannot utlize their brain games and if they mindscrew their way to victory then it wouldn't have even been what one could call a "battle".

A battle is a battle,mental,physical,or spiritual,there are many verses,whose characters won't do jack without their verse specific powers.Genjutsu,affects chakra,Yin-yang are creation forces,Chakra is eseentially the life force of a person(in naruto),ninjas can produce more than an average person's body would normally produce and realease it out of their chakra points,unless you are a direct descandant of the progenitor of chakra,you don't have access of Yin-Yang(separately) which are primordial forces,Chakra on the other hand is a combination of both.Hence,Genjustu,will work.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

you are completely put itachi out of character , itachi never use genjutsu with a rival meeting for the first time that he had no information yet and ura do not make eyes with itachi immediately , and genjutsu has been proven to be effective against a person faster than he ? ura still can use gigai same he did with yammy and aizen , why not ? then ura blitzs him and recognize him immortal and gg ... true , ura wins this so many different ways

 

[KazarianFahs]

you are completely put itachi out of character , itachi never use genjutsu with a rival meeting for the first time that he had no information yet and ura do not make eyes with itachi immediately , and genjutsu has been proven to be effective against a person faster than he ? ura still can use gigai same he did with yammy and aizen , why not ? then ura blitzs him and recognize him immortal and gg ... true , ura wins this so many different ways

Itachi "ALWAYS" uses genjutsu in a fight,as soon as the fight starts,itachi is constantly throwing genjustsu's around,that's his way of fighting,again,genjustu doesn't depend on the physical reaction speed of Itachi,it depends on his mind and how fast he can think,and the speed difference here isn't massive enough to warrant a blitz before itachi can think,unless urahara was sub relativistic.Again,in character urahara wouldn't blitz full speed,but in character will genjustu off the bat.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

itachi never use genjutsu with a rival meeting for the first time that he had no information yet and ura do not make eyes with itachi immediately

 

[KazarianFahs]

itachi never use genjutsu with a rival meeting for the first time that he had no information yet and ura do not make eyes with itachi immediately

That's a very bad argument,that's like saying Urahara doesn't use his shinigami powers on anyone he has no idea about? so you are saying Urahara wouldn't use any shinigami abilites? Again,every "fight" itachi has been in,Itachi always throws around genjustu off the bat,in every cannon naruto story since itachi's ANBU days to his death,any fight he's been In,he always genjustsu's first,his first encounter against orochimaru,he genjustued him.Urahara won't look at itachi's face? itachi can cast genjustu with his Face,or he can just kotoamatsukami and control Urahara off the bat,without Urahara knowing or looking at his face or body

 

[Hiei312]

eye contact is something that just happens naturally. no one is gonna avoid it , unless they know beforehand that it is dangerous. you really think Urahara is not gonna look at his opponent's face when the fight starts? he will want to see what the opponent looks like..it's natural, everyone does.

Itachi is almost always passively casting genjutsu while fighting. its why deidara fell in genjutsu in the middle of a conversation, bee got caught while attacking,orochimaru when he was walking towards him, Naruto when they met in the forest and he gave him the crow...this is also why Kabuto went out of his way to fight the ENTIRE BATTLE with his eyes sealed. he recognizes that looking at Itachi's face at any given point in the fight could mean defeat. (some of those were first time Itachi met them..)

this is not even mentioning the other ways he can use genjutsu...what if he points his finger at urahara? the natural reaction for anyone will be to look at it, since it indicates an attack..he will pay attention to it to try and avoid a possible attack coming from his finger..and he'll fall in genjutsu.

The thing is, its really hard for a character of similar tier to beat itachi without intel, because the way Itachi fights is among the most unfair in any shonen anime ever.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

still urahara is 10 times faster than itachi hi blitz him and sealed him away.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

eye contact is something that just happens naturally. no one is gonna avoid it , unless they know beforehand that it is dangerous. you really think Urahara is not gonna look at his opponent's face when the fight starts? he will want to see what the opponent looks like..it's natural, everyone does.
Itachi is almost always passively casting genjutsu while fighting. its why deidara fell in genjutsu in the middle of a conversation, bee got caught while attacking,orochimaru when he was walking towards him, Naruto when they met in the forest and he gave him the crow...this is also why Kabuto went out of his way to fight the ENTIRE BATTLE with his eyes sealed. he recognizes that looking at Itachi's face at any given point in the fight could mean defeat. (some of those were first time Itachi met them..)

this is not even mentioning the other ways he can use genjutsu...what if he points his finger at urahara? the natural reaction for anyone will be to look at it, since it indicates an attack..he will pay attention to it to try and avoid a possible attack coming from his finger..and he'll fall in genjutsu.

The thing is, its really hard for a character of similar tier to beat itachi without intel, because the way Itachi fights is among the most unfair in any shonen anime ever.

what? even naruto at his base form can resist his genjutsu.

 

[KazarianFahs]

Physical stats have no effect on mental resistance,like how superman is planetary+ in most cases but since he has no specific resistance to magic,he can be hurt by pretty mid level magic attacks.Much likely if a character is vastly physically strong but has no resistance to mental attacks he will fall prey to the even most basic mental attacks.Not because they are suspectible to it,but rather have no form of defense against it,If itachi's TP works against chars that are trained to avoid genjustu,A guy that has no idea about it,is at a seere adavantage against who constantly casts genjustu off the bat.Again 10x speed difference isn't enough to blitz itachi before he can "think" since it's the amount of time he needs to cast genjustu.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

yeah because urahara that has to dealt with aizen all the time has no mental resistant attack, also blitz and sealed him away still work.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

Urahara always appear unexpectedly and distance help genjutsu = nothing , ura can prepared at that distance along with the plan that he had anticipated , blitz + appear unexpectedly + kido seal + plan = gg ,

 

[Primaris_Brian]

well..it isn't fair
but you have to agree it'd also be horribly unfair to remove genjutsu from mr genjutsu. it'd be like removing the healing factor from wolverine.

...maybe just ban high level genjutsu users like Itachi from fighting bleach characters? or at least just Itachi himself since others like Sasuke and Madara don't use it often enough for it to be "in character" in the start of the fight....


i'm not really sure. i don't think there's a great solution either way.

Dude, stop wanking him, itachi is not Yhwach, Ajimu Najimi or Iihiko Shishime..

 

[Primaris_Brian]

still if he even need to be careful to jiraiya and dont wanna to attack him directly then i don't think he can easily genjutsu urahara.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

Urahara is always the first surprise attack , itachi needs time to recover , in this time urahara can seal him quickly

 

[Primaris_Brian]

also instead of wanking him and say ahh no one in bleach can beat itachi, he too hax so let's banned him from battle then how about create a match where 2 of them have basic knowledge of their opponent ability? it's pretty easy and not involved wanking.

 

[LordAizenSama]

This thread sure is something.

 

[Raito_Utopia]

I guess this thread should be closed because wank :/

 

[Saitamax]

Itachi not need to "be careful" of jiraiya

Databook 3 states all of Itachi attempt at capturing naruto were fake. he was a good guy abd love the leaf...would never really harm Jiraiya or capture Naruto.

the artgument of Urahara being prepare and having plan involves prep time and knowledge. if he had those he would win yes

without it he will lose to genjutsu as most characters. i originally thot genjutsu was banned...but i change the vote to Itachi after realizing it isnt.

don't make sense for characters not look at each other when fight starts. everyone from every series does it. only way he not do it is if he know looking at itachi is dangerous before.

 

[Primaris_Brian]

Not as something as janemba win via speed and hax..

lol

 

[Saitamax]

it not really wank


everyone looks at opponent when fight start...right? Itachi simply take advantage of that.


Urahara is more pówerful and faster..i think everyone agree with that. the argument is that none of it matter because when fight start he will get caught in genjutsu. unless he has intel.