Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist

[LordXcano]

@Ryu

"Irrelevant to what I am saying. What constitutes a low end outlier and consitent feat is case by case and varies based on context. My point is that you don't use an inconsistency to prove something is consistent. That kinda without saying."

So far there's 1 MHS feat, of which is questionable on its own and likely much lower than that. There are some 19-22 sub/supersonic feats. Which one is the inconsistency here?

"I know that. The problem is when you start using them struggling with lesser things on an absurd scale that makes the low end an outlier as well. Again, like using Goku getting hurt by a bullet to say him surviving Soul Zamasu is PIS. And why doesn't this logic work the other way then? If you can use low end outliers to disprove high end outliers, why can't one use high end outliers to disprove low end ones. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Is it perhaps that both the low end and the high end are equally ridiculous and shouldn't be argued with? Cause that's what I'd say."

This isn't like that though. This isn't:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

This is:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times

 

[Ryukama]

@Ryu
So far there's 1 MHS feat, of which is questionable on its own and likely much lower than that. There are some 19-22 sub/supersonic feats. Which one is the inconsistency here?

This isn't like that though. This isn't:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

This is:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times

So do you think Spiderman is Sub/Supersonic or not? Cause you kept claiming you don't think that, yet you're constantly bringing up these feats and indicating that between them and the MHS stuff they aren't the consistency.

If you think Sub/Supersonic Spiderman feats aren't outliers, then fine. But if you think they are outliers and that his profile shouldn't be made to them, then don't use them. Cause again, you don't use inconsistency to prove consistency.

This isn't like that though. This isn't:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he shook infinite planets

This is:

• Hulk losing to a gorilla is PIS because he's busted planets on 6 different occassions, shaken stars on 4 occassions, held open black holes 3 times, and shaken planets through shockwaves 6 other times

But when you're claiming that all those feats you listed are inconsistent or shouldn't be used for the profiles, then it's still using outliers to prove outliers.

 

[LordXcano]

"So do you think Spiderman is Sub/Supersonic or not?"

On average? Yes. But I think we could scale him to Black Panther as a low-end in lieu of better feats.

"But when you're claiming that all those feats you listed are inconsistent or shouldn't be used for the profiles, then it's still using outliers to prove outliers."

I think I understand your point now.

 

[Ryukama]

Alright.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xcano

To prove how bad your logic is, I will use it backwards.

Spider-Man isn't merely Hypersonic, he is Massively Hypersonic+. Here is proof:

• Dodges a laser stated to be Lightspeed
• Dodges lasers agai
• Dodges Cyclops' eye blasts which have been explictly said to be lightspeed, multiple times in fact
• Tags Lightmaster who is Lightspeed
• Dodges Lightmaster' Lightspeed Blasts
• Dodges Iron Man's Repulsor Blasts , which are stated to be lightspeed
• Spidey is also consistently faster than Captain America, who dodges lasers in Zero Gravity

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Every single one of these fails to meet the criteria for aimdodging on both our page and the OBD page except for these two, however the latter is still complicated by the fact he has precog and such.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't see how they are "aimdodging" at all. You are just assuming he dodged before things were fired from the lack of showings, which is dishonest.

 

[Promestein]

Can we get back on topic.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can we get back on topic.

I agree. Spider-Man moved at Mach 400 and pushed Hulk.

 

[LordAizenSama]

honestly I agree with Josh here.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

I never seen a thread more divided in opinions...

 

[HeroicDefender97]

So long as we focus on the consistent showings that Spider-Man and Iron Fist have displayed that puts them at Multi-City Block Level-City Level and MHS+ respectively like the ones Matthew showed.

Then the PIS moments or the so-called outlierish feats should not hinder them or anyone who scales to them from being at such a level.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Spider-Man would still be At least 8-A scaling from Deadpool, and possibly be Low 7-C anyway since Luke Cage isn't really that stronger than him. They fought many times in the comics and Spidey won a lot of times.

Also Spidey consistently dodges attacks from Electro, who wields real MHS+ Electricity. And would scale from Daredevil's speed and Iron Fist's speed, and his own Microsecond Speed feats and the speed feats of guys like Captain America, Deadpool, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Hank Pym / Scott Lang, Thing and Iron Man all of which have Mach 100+ / Mach 1000+ speed feats.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I agree that our standard practice is to use high-end feats that are not complete outliers, and that Spider-Man can be scaled from other characters with similar levels of feats anyway.

However, LordXcano has a point in that this feat in particular seems unreliable, and that it might be better if we use other ones instead.

 

[HeroicDefender97]

Well, I agree that our standard practice is to use high-end feats that are not complete outliers, and that Spider-Man can be scaled from other characters with similar levels of feats anyway.
However, LordXcano has a point in that this feat in particular seems unreliable, and that it might be better if we use other ones instead,

Which feat are you referring to Ant? cause if that's the case--- Matthew's suggestion on using the MHS+ stuff from Spider-Man consistently dodging and reacting to Electro's Lightning seems to be the most reliable to me.

Because he does create and manipulates natural lightning after all.

 

[Antvasima]

I referred to the one in which Spider-Man saves the Hulk. The timeframe seems to be unreliable according to what LordXcano wrote.

Btw:

During the gradual Marvel revisions we are likely going to insert quite a lot of new calculation links from the Narutoforums. Please remember to always back them up to the Wayback Machine Internet Archive in conjunction, in case their URLs are changed, or the calculations are removed.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Why would Spidey scale to Deadpool's best weapon, which IIRC was a pre-made bomb?

And could you link Spidey dodging Electro's lightning? I'm aware he does it, but most of those feats are like this, which doesn't meet our criteria for aimdodging.

 

[Antvasima]

So, is anybody interested in adjusting Spider-Man's scaling to some other feats instead?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xcano

Deadpool has two feats of 8-A durability. He will be upgraded to 8-A normally, and plenty of heroes will scale from him.

I am currently going through Electro's appearances. Spider-Man being MHS+ is very acceptable.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

But just for reference, here both Silk and Black Cat casually dodge an already fired lightning from Electro, though Spider-Man who was weakened fails to.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Could you link me Deadpool's dura feats?

Silk seems like she actually dodged it, but Black Cat says right on the page that she's just really lucky.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Xcano

https://youtu.be/oPQU02g_osw?t=615

Two feats involving him tanking explosions whose wields are nearly identical. 125 tons and 129 tons of TNT.

 

[LordXcano]

@Matt

Alrighty then.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There's a 90s storyline where Electro gets a stated x1000 Power multiplier. Spidey still survives lightning from him. Assuming that his lightning is at least somewhat comparable to a real lightning bolt, giving it an output of 1,000,000,000 joules, that would mean that with a x1000 multiplier his attacks would have a potency of 1.0e12 Joules.

8-A, bordering on Low 7-C. And Spider-Man survived his attacks in the storyline.

 

[LordXcano]

3 things:

• I think this was discussed before, but a vast majority of the energy from lightning does not hit the human body

• That's only 239 Tons, not really bordering

• Are you talking about Amazing Spider-Man #422 to #425?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

• We rank Lightning in fiction as not wholly similar to real life. Characters who produce "real" lightning are High 8-C, and those that tank that are High 8-C too.
• It's a lowball. It'd be 10 times higher at max.
• Yes.

 

[LordXcano]

• The point of the discussion was to stop doing that, nothing came of it because that'd be way too many revisions though

• See above

• I'm pretty sure Spider-Man was absolutely destroyed in that fight and had to plead for his life, only winning later when he got a lightning resistant suit

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

• Most people still disagreed with changing the current policy
• Same
• Spider-Man still survived attacks from Electro meaning it scales to his durability.

 

[LordXcano]

• I was wrong about the revision bit, but the thread ends with Anton and TLT clarifying most of the energy is used getting past potential difference and isn't actually transferred to the target

• The fact Spidey was allowed to live means that Electro wasn't going all out, and the fact he would've died had Electro not let him live means that he could barely survive casual attacks

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

He was still surviving Electro's attacks, and survived attacks ever after the electricity-proof suit failed.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Anyway, about speed .

 

[LordXcano]

I know he survived attacks, but it's kinda like using this as a durability feat for Superman or this to say Captain America is on par with Thanos. Both are clearly casual attacks that the other person was majorly hurt by. Electro isn't even going all out and he nearly kills Spider-Man.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that some of Spider-Man's higher lightning-dodging feats should preferably be calculated, and that they will likely yield Massively Hypersonic results, but we probably also have to revert him and the characters scaled from him to Large Building level. At least unless we find better reliable feats.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Doesn't he somewhat scale off of Luke Cage though? Even if my calc wasn't accurate, attacks that completely destroy skyscrapers have been calculated at Low 7-C by Aiden.

User blog:AidenBrooks999/Destroying Things

 

[Antvasima]

Luke Cage is currently treated as considerably stronger, and particularly more durable, than Spider-Man.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

Are you sure he is? The only fight in the comics which I remember between the two is this:

http://scans-daily.dreamwidth.org/5569944.html?thread=164950424&style=light

They are mostly equal in the punching.

Also, Silk is explictly stated to be "Faster than Lightning", which is MHS+

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he can recurrently fight on even footing with villains such as Orca, Ironclad, and even Proxima Midnight, and once completely outclassed the Green Goblin.

 

[Antvasima]

As for Silk, that may have been a metaphorical statement. It is probably better to scale from high-level combat speed feats.

 

[Promestein]

How could that be a metaphorical statement when it's in a scene where she's fighting a lightning manipulator and dodging lightning

 

[Antvasima]

She did? That should be fine then.