-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
- Start date
- Status
- 8,675
- 5,560
"Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof."
Well, he's Large Building level+ so I don't think this is any more outlierish for those reasons.
Also everyone in fiction gets hurt by bullets all the time. The bullet argument is irrelevant.
As mentioned various times, Iron Fist contained the explosion.
Well, he's Large Building level+ so I don't think this is any more outlierish for those reasons.
Also everyone in fiction gets hurt by bullets all the time. The bullet argument is irrelevant.
As mentioned various times, Iron Fist contained the explosion.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #43
"Well, Iron Fist making vague claims of his fist being like a hydrogen bomb should not be taken any more seriously than that he compared it to a star in the same scans."
The difference is that he was clearly being poetical in the first instance, while the second was a character statement.
The train explosion was calced at 2.4 Megatons. It's a City level feat. Consistent with other Iron Fist feats.
"Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof."
So? That's just how bullets work in fiction.
Wonder Woman can Planet Bust, tank barrages of Infinite Mass Punches from the Reverse Flash, survive hits from Ares, but plenty of writers have her need to block bullets with her gauntlets. Spawn is equal to the heart of a star in his weakest form, is unharmed by nukes and fights Solar System level Angels and Demons, yet bullets often pierce his body. Super Buu can tank punches and blasts from Gotenks without any effect to his body structure, but gets riddled with bullets.
Basically, guns don't kill people, the writer does.
I don't see what's an outlier about Spider-Man pushing the Hulk, specially when we have so many other feats of similar caliber to support it. 8-A Deadpool, Low 7-C Luke Cage, 7-C feats for Spidey, 7-C to 7-A feats for Ghost Rider (Depending on size of mountains) and 7-C to 7-B feats for Iron Fist.
The difference is that he was clearly being poetical in the first instance, while the second was a character statement.
The train explosion was calced at 2.4 Megatons. It's a City level feat. Consistent with other Iron Fist feats.
"Spider-Man tanking part of a nuclear explosion should probably be seen as an outlier, given that he is consistently shown as not being bulletproof."
So? That's just how bullets work in fiction.
Wonder Woman can Planet Bust, tank barrages of Infinite Mass Punches from the Reverse Flash, survive hits from Ares, but plenty of writers have her need to block bullets with her gauntlets. Spawn is equal to the heart of a star in his weakest form, is unharmed by nukes and fights Solar System level Angels and Demons, yet bullets often pierce his body. Super Buu can tank punches and blasts from Gotenks without any effect to his body structure, but gets riddled with bullets.
Basically, guns don't kill people, the writer does.
I don't see what's an outlier about Spider-Man pushing the Hulk, specially when we have so many other feats of similar caliber to support it. 8-A Deadpool, Low 7-C Luke Cage, 7-C feats for Spidey, 7-C to 7-A feats for Ghost Rider (Depending on size of mountains) and 7-C to 7-B feats for Iron Fist.
- 167,703
- 76,304
Well, I still do not think that stopping a train should scale to the explosives supposedly contained within the train. By a strange storybook logic they were never shown as ignited to anywhere near a degree approaching the power that they were claimed to possess, and Iron Fist does not have any mystical forcefield powers that contain explosions.
Making a statement that "It's like somebody dropped an H-Bomb on the city" should also be taken as unproven hyperbole, especially considering that no destruction remotely approaching that scale was visibly shown.
The Radion feat should be usable however.
Making a statement that "It's like somebody dropped an H-Bomb on the city" should also be taken as unproven hyperbole, especially considering that no destruction remotely approaching that scale was visibly shown.
The Radion feat should be usable however.
- 8,675
- 5,560
Why do we need to judge its accuracy by OBD's pages? We're not OBD. We're not officially affiliated with OBD. We need to decide on these things ourselves.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #47
"Well, I still do not think that stopping a train should scale to the explosives supposedly contained within the train"
Look at the scans:
[is magnetically attracted to the train like a bullet]. He says that the only way to stop it is by destroying it before it hits Kun-Lun and destroys them.
[explodes on the air]. In other words, it ignited all the nuclear explosives inside of it.
Look at the scans:
[is magnetically attracted to the train like a bullet]. He says that the only way to stop it is by destroying it before it hits Kun-Lun and destroys them.
[explodes on the air]. In other words, it ignited all the nuclear explosives inside of it.
- 167,703
- 76,304
@Promestein Because that is the procedure by which we accept calculations. Either the OBD has to accept them, or our own calc group members, or both if it seems sufficiently suspicious or controversial.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #49
@Ant
I will try talking with Darkanime about this. He calculated Luke Cage's explosion. He could do a recalc of Spidey's. I predict that it will also wield Low 7-C results.
I will try talking with Darkanime about this. He calculated Luke Cage's explosion. He could do a recalc of Spidey's. I predict that it will also wield Low 7-C results.
- 167,703
- 76,304
@Matthew
As is stated within the scans that you provided, if the true nuclear explosion had gone off, it would have destroyed all of the immortal weapons, Iron Fist included.
By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded. As such, we can only scale Iron Fist from stopping the train in this instance.
That said, the Radion feat is still likely usable, so it isn't like this particularly matters.
As is stated within the scans that you provided, if the true nuclear explosion had gone off, it would have destroyed all of the immortal weapons, Iron Fist included.
By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded. As such, we can only scale Iron Fist from stopping the train in this instance.
That said, the Radion feat is still likely usable, so it isn't like this particularly matters.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #51
@Ant
It did go off. The concern wasn't about them, it was about if the train hit Kun-Lun. Iron Fist fixed the situation by destroying the train first.
"By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded"
I'm sorry, but what evidence do you have that that's the case? Nothing implies that it was such. And it makes no logical sense. You cannot even say that the explosion "doesn't appear that big", because there is literally nothing on the panel to compare it to.
This feat was calced at 2.4 Megatons and accepted at the OBD.
It did go off. The concern wasn't about them, it was about if the train hit Kun-Lun. Iron Fist fixed the situation by destroying the train first.
"By a strange storybook logic, all that happened was that the fuel of the train itself exploded"
I'm sorry, but what evidence do you have that that's the case? Nothing implies that it was such. And it makes no logical sense. You cannot even say that the explosion "doesn't appear that big", because there is literally nothing on the panel to compare it to.
This feat was calced at 2.4 Megatons and accepted at the OBD.
- 3,260
- 293
Antvasima said:
OBD has rejected the calculation based on the fact that the size of the explosion is much smaller than the calculation implies.
EDIT: To explain why the size of the explosion was so small in the second picture that I posted...
As the missile in question approached towards the sea, Spider Man jumped off the missile just in time before the missile went into the sea and exploded.
As for what this means, the ocean would have contained most of the explosion that was caused by the missile, which is why the size of the explosion that is shown in the atmosphere/above the water is not as big compared to said missile going off on land.
Here is a diagram shown below.
The scud missile would have destroyed everyone within miles only if said missile had landed on the ground, and not in the water.
- 167,703
- 76,304
If the explosion had been so potent that it made Hiroshima look like a firecracker, it would not just have been a few meters in diameter, and definitely have enveloped the entire surrounding area, so again, we need a calculation of the displayed explosion itself, not an estimation of what it would take to wipe out K'un Lun.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #54
"Not a few meters in diameter"Antvasima said:
We have nothing to go on the size.
The explosion would have wiped out Kun-Lun, this is why Danny hurls himself into it so that the explosion could detonate in a safe area before reaching Kun-Kun.
By colliding at full speed, punching the train, he ignited the explosions before the train collided with the intended target. Thus, Iron Fist tanked the full force of the nuclear explosions.
- 167,703
- 76,304
Iron Fist's allies were standing very nearby when he hit the train, and were not enveloped by the very small explosion. It is irrational to claim that it was comparable to high end nuclear yields.
I agree with LordXcano regarding that we cannot logically scale from this, as the feat is extremely unreliable. Focus on Radion instead.
I agree with LordXcano regarding that we cannot logically scale from this, as the feat is extremely unreliable. Focus on Radion instead.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #56
"It is irrational to claim that it was comparable to high end nuclear yields."
I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded. Nothing about the narrative implies that by destroying the train, Iron Fist would impede the nuclear bombs inside the train from detonating. No. Instead, the narrative tells us that Iron Fist did what he did so the train and the bombs inside would explode before reaching the city.
There are two ways of interpreting this:
I believe that this feat, in conjunction with Radion's, and the H-Bomb statement should be put on Iron Fist's profile to showcase his true strength.
I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded. Nothing about the narrative implies that by destroying the train, Iron Fist would impede the nuclear bombs inside the train from detonating. No. Instead, the narrative tells us that Iron Fist did what he did so the train and the bombs inside would explode before reaching the city.
There are two ways of interpreting this:
- One: You can analyze what the story states / implies, and go by it.
- Two: You can ignore what's stated in the plot and go simply by visuals.
I believe that this feat, in conjunction with Radion's, and the H-Bomb statement should be put on Iron Fist's profile to showcase his true strength.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #58
@Antvasima
Iron Fist can absorb energy. That's one of his main characteristics. He does it all the time.
Also, I'm not really sure his allies were near the train when it exploded. It's actually the contrary.
Danny is in K'un-Lun near the portal. The mobs are in the train statio .
Danny and the train collide at the end of the railroad near the portal . You can clearly see it as they are about to explode .
Danny lands near the mobs on the train station, far away from the end of the railroad .
Iron Fist can absorb energy. That's one of his main characteristics. He does it all the time.
Also, I'm not really sure his allies were near the train when it exploded. It's actually the contrary.
Danny is in K'un-Lun near the portal. The mobs are in the train statio .
Danny and the train collide at the end of the railroad near the portal . You can clearly see it as they are about to explode .
Danny lands near the mobs on the train station, far away from the end of the railroad .
- 1,092
- 919
Ehh...
I more or less agree with Matt.
I more or less agree with Matt.
- 167,703
- 76,304
@Lina
Okay. I suppose that we cannot use the Spider-Man nuke feat then.
@Mathew
Well, going by this scan the explosion seems quite small, and his allies seem to have been standing nearby, but if the OBD accepted the feat, I am uncertain.
I did not know that Iron Fist can absorb different types of energy. I thought that he could manipulate chi, and that's it?
Okay. I suppose that we cannot use the Spider-Man nuke feat then.
@Mathew
Well, going by this scan the explosion seems quite small, and his allies seem to have been standing nearby, but if the OBD accepted the feat, I am uncertain.
I did not know that Iron Fist can absorb different types of energy. I thought that he could manipulate chi, and that's it?
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #61
He can absorb most kinds of energy, if I am not mistaken. During his fight with Radion, for instance, he absorbed his nuclear energy blasts. He also absorbed the energy of Master Khan's spells. It seems that Danny can absorb most kinds of energy if it's fired in an energetic way, like an explosion or a ray.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #62
@Ant
Are you okay with 8-A Deadpool? He has two 8-A durability feats, as calculated by Vivi Ortonier of OBD. And they are not the result of his Regenerationn, as he came off unscathed and his Regenerationn is established as taking many minutes to heal simple wounds.
8-A Deadpool is actually consistent with Low 7-C to 7-C Spidey and Luke Cage.
Are you okay with 8-A Deadpool? He has two 8-A durability feats, as calculated by Vivi Ortonier of OBD. And they are not the result of his Regenerationn, as he came off unscathed and his Regenerationn is established as taking many minutes to heal simple wounds.
8-A Deadpool is actually consistent with Low 7-C to 7-C Spidey and Luke Cage.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #64
- 167,703
- 76,304
That is a Deadpool video.
Anyway, I suppose that we can scale Iron Fist from the train and Radion feats then.
Spider-Man can probably be scaled from the Hulk feat, given that we use it already, but the nuclear explosion feat seems very unreliable.
Anyway, I suppose that we can scale Iron Fist from the train and Radion feats then.
Spider-Man can probably be scaled from the Hulk feat, given that we use it already, but the nuclear explosion feat seems very unreliable.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #66
I am okay with scaling Luke Cage from his nuke feat, Spidey from the Hulk feat, and Iron Fist from Radion's feat.
It would mean a Low-End Low 7-C for Spidey and Luke Cage, and 7-B for Iron Fist.
It would mean a Low-End Low 7-C for Spidey and Luke Cage, and 7-B for Iron Fist.
- 925
- 525
Would it be reasonable to scale Spider-Man and Luke Cage to Iron Fist? The gap isn't too big, and they are consistently shown to be approximate in power.
- 3,260
- 293
@Ant:
Regarding Iron Fist's energy absorption, it states in the Daniel Rand page of Marvel Wikia that he is able to absorb energy directed at himself and channeled it to augment his own power. This is written in Energy Absorption under the Powers and Abilities section.
So what Matt is saying here is that the explosion shown to us is smaller than expected because Iron Fist was able to absorb most of the energy from the exploding nukes in the train, therefore drastically reducing the explosion's size.
- This is the aftermath of the train explosion, where Iron Fist's allies were pretty close to the Iron Fist here
Regarding Iron Fist's energy absorption, it states in the Daniel Rand page of Marvel Wikia that he is able to absorb energy directed at himself and channeled it to augment his own power. This is written in Energy Absorption under the Powers and Abilities section.
So what Matt is saying here is that the explosion shown to us is smaller than expected because Iron Fist was able to absorb most of the energy from the exploding nukes in the train, therefore drastically reducing the explosion's size.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #70
@Lina
Those werent his allies. Those were the mobsters on the Train Station.
Those werent his allies. Those were the mobsters on the Train Station.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #71
Iron Fist is way stronger than them, as demonstrated by his superior feats. He has easily defeat Luke Cage and broken out of Spidey's webbing.Follow Doctor Freeman said:
- 925
- 525
Okey dokey, if Iron Fist does consistently outmatch Luke and Spidey, then it is sensible to not bother scaling the latter two to the Iron Fist.
- 167,703
- 76,304
@Dark649
Given the contradictions of the handbooks, Matthew and LordXcano were previously given permission to start to rescale the Marvel characters by applying something closer to our usual methods.
Given the contradictions of the handbooks, Matthew and LordXcano were previously given permission to start to rescale the Marvel characters by applying something closer to our usual methods.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #74
Two other Iron Fist feats:
Tilting a Helicarrier with a punch .
a monster that absorbs his kinetic energy, which leads to it becoming colossal.
Tilting a Helicarrier with a punch .
a monster that absorbs his kinetic energy, which leads to it becoming colossal.
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #76
I am 100% willing to help.
- 10,051
- 9,311
I'll help, if possible
- 10,394
- 3,348
I can deal with the pages relating to Spider-Man (He's kinda my forte).
- 32,359
- 20,298
- Thread starter
- #80
@Ever
Do it. Imma edit Luke Cage.
Do it. Imma edit Luke Cage.
- Status
Similar threads
