- 9,729
- 8,502
I can help with some of the x men pages....
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist
- Thread starter Matthew_Schroeder
- Start date
- Status
- 11,582
- 548
Oh i didn't think this was gonna pass today.....ayyyyy~
- 2,334
- 312
"That's not at all what's being implied nor stated by the narrative. If it was such a simple thing that doesn't require such speed, there would be no need for such a rapid solution from Spidey."
You're arguing that Hulk could not hold a ball for literally a few milliseconds more, even though he was holding it for several seconds to a minute just beforehand.
"Evidently, he isn't. If he was Spidey wouldn't reiterate how he rescued him in the nick of time."
Hulk was completely negating the force of both balls just before Spidey saved him.
"I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. The following panel clearly shows the ball speeding up much like the first one."
Because in order for Spidey to need to move so fast, you would have to argue that Hulk cannot hold the ball at all (even though he was just 1 panel before) and that the ball can go from 0 to top speed instantly.
"They weren't. Hulk punches the ball and there it goes at a speed needed to break escape velocity. The second ball does the same."
The ball can accelerate, it does not need to go at escape velocity.
"I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded."
This is not how nukes work. Nukes require a specific set of nuclear reactions to happen in trillionths of a second. The train blowing up would not set them off, nor would dropping a nuke into the sun.
You're arguing that Hulk could not hold a ball for literally a few milliseconds more, even though he was holding it for several seconds to a minute just beforehand.
"Evidently, he isn't. If he was Spidey wouldn't reiterate how he rescued him in the nick of time."
Hulk was completely negating the force of both balls just before Spidey saved him.
"I don't see how it is relevant to this discussion. The following panel clearly shows the ball speeding up much like the first one."
Because in order for Spidey to need to move so fast, you would have to argue that Hulk cannot hold the ball at all (even though he was just 1 panel before) and that the ball can go from 0 to top speed instantly.
"They weren't. Hulk punches the ball and there it goes at a speed needed to break escape velocity. The second ball does the same."
The ball can accelerate, it does not need to go at escape velocity.
"I believe it is less logical to assume that the nuclear explosives were magically not detonated when the train exploded."
This is not how nukes work. Nukes require a specific set of nuclear reactions to happen in trillionths of a second. The train blowing up would not set them off, nor would dropping a nuke into the sun.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #84
@Xcano
If Hulk could hold the ball for much longer without any issue, Spider-Man wouldn't have to push him away in the nick of time.
Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity.
The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text.
And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lu. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city.
If Hulk could hold the ball for much longer without any issue, Spider-Man wouldn't have to push him away in the nick of time.
Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity.
The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text.
And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lu. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city.
- 2,334
- 312
"If Hulk could hold the ball for much longer without any issue, Spider-Man wouldn't have to push him away in the nick of time."
The problem here is that you're arguing "nick of time" must be some microsecond-scale event. "Nick of time" can also be "one second". I'm not saying Spidey had a whole minute, but I think also that saying it's in the millionths of a second is just as absurd considering the context.
"Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity."
How do you know they don't accelerate?
"The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text."
Hulk held it for quite some time, he just couldn't hold it for much longer. Why are you assuming that he couldn't hold it for just a single second more when he was doing that for a minute prior?
"And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lun. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city."
Can you provide context for this?
To be clear, I'm fine with nuke-level Danny. He has plenty of feats to support it. I just don't think that the train feat is the best one to use for it when Radion/Hellicarier/Hydrogen bomb comparison all work just as well.
The problem here is that you're arguing "nick of time" must be some microsecond-scale event. "Nick of time" can also be "one second". I'm not saying Spidey had a whole minute, but I think also that saying it's in the millionths of a second is just as absurd considering the context.
"Again, the bombs didn't demonstrate accelerations. They flew at escape velocity."
How do you know they don't accelerate?
"The bombs going that fast and Hulk not being able to hold it is what's shown in the page. Your interpretations are not supported by the text."
Hulk held it for quite some time, he just couldn't hold it for much longer. Why are you assuming that he couldn't hold it for just a single second more when he was doing that for a minute prior?
"And it doesn't matter if the nuclear explosives need special reactions, because the nuclear bombs in the train would explode when hitting K'un-Lun. Thus, Danny hurled himself towards the train at full force, causing the explosion to occur at a safe distance from the city."
Can you provide context for this?
To be clear, I'm fine with nuke-level Danny. He has plenty of feats to support it. I just don't think that the train feat is the best one to use for it when Radion/Hellicarier/Hydrogen bomb comparison all work just as well.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #86
The bombs didn't demonstrate any acceleration. And considering the manner in which they were thrown, it makes sense.
The ball was sent flying through The Hulk's punch. The process would be akin to a Baseball pitch, in which the ball is released at maximum speed and slowly loses speed with time. However, the ball was sent flying at escape velocity, meaning that it wouldn't lose speed as it could overcome the planet's gravity.
As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction.
Now Danny's feat.
Yeah, I can show you more scans from the scene. The villains' plans were basically to blow up K'un-Lun due to the bombs inside the train. They didn't have any detonation mechanism. It would blow up due to the collision.
The ball was sent flying through The Hulk's punch. The process would be akin to a Baseball pitch, in which the ball is released at maximum speed and slowly loses speed with time. However, the ball was sent flying at escape velocity, meaning that it wouldn't lose speed as it could overcome the planet's gravity.
As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction.
Now Danny's feat.
Yeah, I can show you more scans from the scene. The villains' plans were basically to blow up K'un-Lun due to the bombs inside the train. They didn't have any detonation mechanism. It would blow up due to the collision.
- 2,334
- 312
"The bombs didn't demonstrate any acceleration. And considering the manner in which they were thrown, it makes sense."
All things have to accelerate unless they have a literal infinite amount of force behind them.
"As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction."
This doesn't follow. The first moving at escape velocity does not mean the second needs to move at that speed instantaneously. It can just as easily increase in speed as it catches up to the first.
Plus, this is still forgetting the whole thing about Hulk still holding the other ball back. Unless one can prove that he couldn't hold it for even just a millisecond more, there's no reason why "nick of time" can't also mean "just a second before his strength failed".
All things have to accelerate unless they have a literal infinite amount of force behind them.
"As the second ball followed the first at just the same speeds due to their attraction."
This doesn't follow. The first moving at escape velocity does not mean the second needs to move at that speed instantaneously. It can just as easily increase in speed as it catches up to the first.
Plus, this is still forgetting the whole thing about Hulk still holding the other ball back. Unless one can prove that he couldn't hold it for even just a millisecond more, there's no reason why "nick of time" can't also mean "just a second before his strength failed".
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #88
Everything in the narrative implies that the second ball followed with just the same speed as the first, due to their attractive force.
- 165,956
- 73,687
I think that LordXcano seems to make sense. Perhaps we should withhold the Spider-Man upgrade, use some other high-level speed feat for him than the one we do now, and use the Radion and Helicarrier feats for Iron Fist.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #90
@Ant
Can I chat with you about this? I don't think you should halt an upgrade completely because one member disagrees with it, specially when 5 Admins and one Bureucrat support it, and this calculation has been accepted in the OBD, even by Endless Mike who is the most knowledgeable debater on Marvel Comics.
Can I chat with you about this? I don't think you should halt an upgrade completely because one member disagrees with it, specially when 5 Admins and one Bureucrat support it, and this calculation has been accepted in the OBD, even by Endless Mike who is the most knowledgeable debater on Marvel Comics.
- 9,729
- 8,502
Still, no offense to you ant, but to revert a stat based on the opinion of one person, when a group of other's support it, doesn't seem right
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #93
@Ant
His points do seem logical, but they do not follow what is shown in the narrative.
Hulk punches the Anti-Matter Bomb causing it to fly at faster than Escape Velocity speeds, and due to the attractive Force between the bombs the Matter Bomb follows soon at equal speed. Spider-Man succesfully predicts that and pushes Hulk away in the nick of time. The logical assumption here is that Spider-Man would have to move at speeds comparable to, or faster than the bomb.
His points do seem logical, but they do not follow what is shown in the narrative.
Hulk punches the Anti-Matter Bomb causing it to fly at faster than Escape Velocity speeds, and due to the attractive Force between the bombs the Matter Bomb follows soon at equal speed. Spider-Man succesfully predicts that and pushes Hulk away in the nick of time. The logical assumption here is that Spider-Man would have to move at speeds comparable to, or faster than the bomb.
- 3,260
- 293
Make that two people.Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff said:
- 9,729
- 8,502
Will just have to wait tell what they think then first, no need to rush things and make a mess out of it
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #97
Should we go by the explanation that sounds smart, but isn't supported by the narrative, or should we go by what is shown?Antvasima said:
Naturally, the later. Once you start making assumptions about slow acceleration that was never shown and would contradict the way the bomb was hit, Hulk holding the bomb for longer despite Spider-Man having to push him away immediately, the attractive force not being nearly instantaneous despite it being like that through the issue, you are clearly trying to force an interpretation that would wield a lower result.
Said interpretation may be intellectually pleasing, but that is meaningless if not at all supported by what's on page.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #100
Really? Then Everlasting must have forgot.
- 11,582
- 548
It was Cropfist from the looks of it. I noticed a profile that he updated where it was at 8-A when Spidey is, atm, Low 7-C.
- 11,582
- 548
Don't worry, i'm gonna do it right now.
- 11,582
- 548
Wow, you finally commented here....
- 11,582
- 548
NP. Not much else to do along with a few fixes and such i tried to do.
Assuming we're gonna keep the tierings as is, that's about it for now other than what was talked about here earlier just a few or so hours ago.
Assuming we're gonna keep the tierings as is, that's about it for now other than what was talked about here earlier just a few or so hours ago.
- 165,956
- 73,687
By the way, since Matthew seems to have started revising the Marvel characters based on feats and consistent power-scaling, rather than the handbooks, shouldn't Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) also be upgraded based on LordXcano's calculation a while back?
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #111
I think she should, yes.
- 2,334
- 312
Panel says it reached the edge of the atmosphere in "seconds" (2?). This would mean the first ball would need to accelerate at some 100,000 m/s^2 on average with the atmosphere being 100 km tall.Matthew Schroeder said:
Don't know how long Hulk's arms are, but this is just an approximation right now so I think 1.5 meters would suffice.
t = 2d/a = 2*1.5/100,000 = 0.005 s
100,000 m/s^2 * 0.005 s = 500 m/s
So yeah, even with the highest possible interpretation of this it's still nowhere near Mach 409/1.27 Kiloton level outputs.
And this is still all ignoring the fact Hulk could've bought just a little bit more time by holding the other ball, regardless of how little more time he could've done so.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #114
@Xcano
That is not at all the highest possible interpretation of this. This is simply the highest possible interpretation you can allow yourself to see. If we had any proof of acceleration, you'd be right, but we don't. The ball is send flying at top speed, visibly.
That is not at all the highest possible interpretation of this. This is simply the highest possible interpretation you can allow yourself to see. If we had any proof of acceleration, you'd be right, but we don't. The ball is send flying at top speed, visibly.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #116
We can certainly determine it through the nature of the artwork and the way the projectile was fired or the character went flying. Here, Hulk punched the bomb and it went flying at top speed, as seem in the narrative.
Not once was acceleration hinted at it (Which is also consistent with how the other bomb regained attraction with the first and followed suit at equal speed), but to assume a slow gradual acceleration would be inconsistent with the way the bomb was send.
It was a still-standing ball, which received propulsion due to Hulk's punch and was send flying. The way it was propelled is akin to a Baseball or a bullet, rather than a running person.
Not once was acceleration hinted at it (Which is also consistent with how the other bomb regained attraction with the first and followed suit at equal speed), but to assume a slow gradual acceleration would be inconsistent with the way the bomb was send.
It was a still-standing ball, which received propulsion due to Hulk's punch and was send flying. The way it was propelled is akin to a Baseball or a bullet, rather than a running person.
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #118
That is just as illogical to assume. The Matter Bomb and the Anti-Matter Bomb were attracted to each other like magnets. While Hulk temporarely broke said force, said force quickly returned and the bomb went after the other at top speed.
- 2,334
- 312
Three things:
- Proof that the force returned so incredibly quickly Spider-Man needed Mach 400 speed to save Hulk?
- Proof the other ball went at it with top speed instantaneously?
- Proof that, even if Spider-Man couldn't save the Hulk before the attracting force returns, that Hulk couldn't hold the ball for even just a tenth of a second more despite holding two for about a minute prior?
- 32,344
- 20,269
- Thread starter
- #120
The attraction is described as irresistable.
Hulk only held the balls apart for one page and was struggling, and per Spidey's words he wouldn't be able to hold them anymore even if got a little tired .
Hulk punches it and Spidey pushes him out of the way.
Given how strong the attractive force between them was, how Hulk was visibly struggling to hold the balls together before, how the ball would just become significantly faster when the attractive force returned, and how Spidey pushes Hulk away a panel after he punches the ball, the assumption that Spidey had to move at such speeds makes total sense.
Hulk only held the balls apart for one page and was struggling, and per Spidey's words he wouldn't be able to hold them anymore even if got a little tired .
Hulk punches it and Spidey pushes him out of the way.
Given how strong the attractive force between them was, how Hulk was visibly struggling to hold the balls together before, how the ball would just become significantly faster when the attractive force returned, and how Spidey pushes Hulk away a panel after he punches the ball, the assumption that Spidey had to move at such speeds makes total sense.
- Status
Similar threads
