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Upgrading Spider-Man and Iron Fist

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@Matt

Okay, but all that proves is that Hulk struggled to hold the balls. I wasn't denying that. I was asking for evidence that Hulk couldn't hold them for even just 0.1 seconds more, and the only evidence you've provided for that is that Spidey had to do it quickly, which could mean anything from "1 second" to "1 nanosecond".

I also just noticed, you can see the first ball in the panel immediately after Spidey pushed Hulk. It's about some 100-200 m up. Even if we go with the highest end of this calc and say it's moving at 100,000~ m/s that still means Spidey only needed to act in 0.001 seconds as opposed to the some 0.000001 seconds the calc implies.
 
@Xcano

I thought you yourself admitted that it's impossible to know the timeframe since each panel is a frozen frame of the scene? Seems a bit disingenous to assume now.

What it proves is that the attractive force is nearly instanenous, and that as Hulk was struggling to hold them apart when they had less speed, he most certainly wouldn't be capable of holding the remaining ball with the speed increase, which as was said would be attracted to its twin almost instantly. Thus, Spidey had to be moving at comparable speeds to push Hulk away.
 
@Matt

When I said that I said there were "no reference points", I then noticed a reference point later on.

How fast is "nearly instantaneous"? 100 m/s? 1000 m/s? 100,000,000 m/s? Why does Hulk need to hold the ball with the speed increase? he broke the attracting force briefly, he should just be holding the normal weight of the ball. Nothing in the dialogue says it'll go to it's twin "nearly instantaneously", I'd say it could imply the opposite.

Spidey says:

"I've got to get him out of the way of its twin!"

And then says:

"Just in time, there goes the second sphere hot on the tail of the first."

Which, to me at least, implies he was aiming to push Hulk out of the way before the bond reforms itself, as he is saying that the second ball is just now starting to move.
 
@Xcano

It would logically follow at speeds just as fast as the first ball was moving at. 139,352.4 m/s.

Spider-Man's dialogue can simply be interpreted as cinematic timing. His perceptions are far faster than an ordinary human. He can think and react in microseconds and dodge Electro's realistic lightning, and it is not unheard for him to have entire thought process in incredibly small time-frames.
 
@Matt

With no acceleration whatsoever, meaning it has an infinite force behind it?

This isn't even cinematic timing. I'm not going "the panel is as fast as it "reads"", I'm saying Spider-Man's dialogue implies that the second ball wasn't moving until he pushed Hulk out of the way.

Also, Spider-Man's reflexes are at max 40x human level by his own admission.
 
Does Black Panther, Hawkeye, Wolverine, and other street levelers (who are currently at Wall Level-Large Building Level and Supersonic-Hypersonic) also scale to this as well? (definitely not as Small Town Level for the three I mentioned, but Multi-City Level and the microsecond feats)
 
Captain America has a few Multi-City Block level feats, Deadpool has a Multi-City Block level durability feat and they have a bunch of MHS+ feats.
 
HeroicDefender97 said:
Does Black Panther, Hawkeye, Wolverine, and other street levelers (who are currently at Wall Level-Large Building Level and Supersonic-Hypersonic) also scale to this as well? (definitely not as Small Town Level for the three I mentioned, but Multi-City Level and the microsecond feats)
Click to expand...
I can definitely assume wolverine would scale, black panther too, Hawkeyes IDK.
 
@Matt

How about:

Combine this with the statements above that "microsecond" tends to be hyperbole? I'd say Spider-Man isn't as fast as you're making him out to be.

Either way, this is irrelvant, my point was that the only reference point for how fast he pushes Hulk gives us a 0.001 second timeframe, which is a massive downgrade from the less than 10 microseconds assumed previously.
 
@Xcano

You seem to just love getting ridiculous low ends like Subsonic Spiderman c:. I can assure you, Spider-Man is Quadruple Digit Mach fast.

Any feat of Spider-Man being slower than a bullet, arrow or sound is pure bullshit, or failing to catch up a normal guy or react to regular people, is pure bullshit.
 
And how about:

Thing reacts to meteors: Mach 163.32

Captain America vs. Builder ship (reaction): Mach 189.2

Reed, Ben, and Johnny react to meteors: Mach 251.15 - 9110.65

Namor swims from Atlantis to NYC: Mach 392.79 - 2356.77 (mid-end Mach 1178.38)

Hawkeye shoots Imus Champion's bowstring: Mach 438.61

Hercules throws Executioner: Mach 587.73

Shi'ar Imperial Guard Smasher trainee daily exercise flight speed: Mach 748 - 1497

Pineapple Thing bomb throw: Mach 2804.34 - 5608.69

Scott Lang reacts in a microsecond: Mach 2938.67

Super-Adaptoid vs. Hank Pym: Mach 2938.67

Thing plays pinball with asteroids: Mach 3197.23

Hawkeye and Black Panther dodge girder: Mach 9029.06

Scott Lang shrinks Future Foundation: Mach 13,659.53

Monica Rambeau shuts down nuclear reactor: 29.19% c (reaction)

Hank Pym shrinks out of the way of Doctor Spectrum's blast: 46.98% c
 
That's a whole lot of non-sourced feats and a whole lot of characters that aren't Spider-Man.
 
I'm sure most, or at least a noticeable portion of them are from Endless Mike, so they'd be easily found by going through his blogs at whatever point. I've found one of them already.

Anyways, it seems absurd to argue for Spider-Man be Subsonic and use feats of him being tagged by normal people as evidence when he's a vastly superhuman character with precognition and regularly fights someone who manipulates electricity.
 
@Prom

I wasn't saying he isn't even Supersonic, I was just saying he is most definitely not consistently quad. digit Mach. Either way, it's completely irrelevant to the feat as I already said.

@Matt

Okay, you can say that. I don't doubt the calcs existed. But until you actually link them there's really no way for me to know if you aren't just making it up or misrepresenting things. I'll go through EM's blog anyway.
 
Then why bring them up if you're not arguing to account for them? Either you treat it as legitimate or you don't bring it up at all.

I know jackshit about calcs so I can't argue for whether or not the feat we're discussing is legitimate, but it's not like the speed result is remarkably inconsistent with Spidey's speed feats.
 
@Xcano

If you don't think Spider-Man is less than Supersonic, why did you bring up feats that are you yourself consider low-end outliers? What method of debating is this?

"I don't think this character is as high as you say he is so I'll bring up the most outlandshly low feats I can gather."

Spider-Man is definitely consistently MHS+ and I will prove it.
 
@Prom

Because Matt said that Spidey can think in microseconds and such to prove the feat was cinematic timing, which wasn't actually relevant to my argument at all. I decided to show that he isn't consistently MHS+ by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, it kinda is inconsistent with his other feats? Because this is like, the only feat he has that's that fast. None of the feats mentioned above are feats done by Spidey. As far as I'm aware, this is his sole MHS+ feat while he has many numerous low Supersonic showings.

------

@Matt

Are you saying that if I want to disprove a claim of Goku being MFTL+ by Saiyan Saga I should bring up examples of him being MFTL+ to disprove them?

Okay you have fun with that.

Very important edit:

I'd still like to point out that even if you proved he was MFTL+ beyond any reasonable doubt that'd still have no bearing on this feat being MHS+/7-C. You would upgrade his speed/keep it the same, but that still wouldn't retroactively prove this feat is 7-C.
 
Neither are any of his Subsonic or lower feats legitimate, neither is this the only MHS or MHS+ feat by Spider-Man or even slower characters. You yourself should realize that that bunch of feats includes characters slower or comparable to Spider-Man, and you should also realize that arguing for Subsonic Peter by cherry picking the few instances where he can't do basic things like casually beat thugs, catch cars or dodge things slower than bullets is incredibly intellectually dishonest. And your Goku comparison makes no sense, and it's simply strawmaning me.
 
"Are you saying that if I want to disprove a claim of Goku being MFTL+ by Saiyan Saga I should bring up examples of him being MFTL+ to disprove them?"

What you're doing is like arguing that Goku's only Relativistic+ and bringing up a bunch of Subsonic feats to prove it.
 
@Matt

If you want me to dispell the notion that I'm cherry picking data I can open up a random comic right now and get every single speed feat there.

@Prom

Except I didn't say "Spider-Man is Hypersonic here's a bunch of subsonic feats to prove it", I said "Spider-Man is not Massively Hypersonic here's a bunch of subsonic feats to prove that".

That's not making any claim about what speed he actually is other than "it's definitely not MHS".
 
@Xcano

If you don't think Spider-Man is Subsonic, then you shouldn't bring up Subsonic Spider-Man feats.

It's just like arguing that Spider-Man isn't Small Town level by bringing up him being hurt by bullets, even though he was previously ranked at Large Building level. Or that Hulk can't be Universe level because he was bitten by a python, or that Dormammu isn't High Hyperverse level because he was beaten by Cyclops.

You are using an example that is vastly lower than even you believe. It'd be akin to me saying "Spider-Man is Massively Hypersonic+, here are five different instances where he dodges literal light / lasers".

The argument is completely non-sequitur.
 
@Matt

Just to clear things up, I only brought up subsonic/supersonic Spider-Man feats because those are the only feats he has that I am aware of. A good half of them actually came from respect threads. I missed 3 recent calcs I did though.

And, saying it for a second time now, I wasn't arguing he's subsonic! Just that isn't MHS+. I'm making no claims of speed other than "Not this one".

If someone says "A human can surivive a grenade to the face" I can point out 100 instances where they get hit by a car and die, but that doesn't mean I don't think humans can't survive a car crash.
 
If you don't think Spider-Man is only Subsonic or Supersonic, than those feats should be meaningless to you.

The grenade example is also not a fair analogy, since the argument would basically be "Real Life humans are Wall level", something that is compleyely impossible and has no examples that prove it.

Meanwhile, "Spider-Man is Tripple / Quadruple-digit Mach" is very reasonable.
 
@Matt

That's not proper form. Just because I think JoJo is FTL doesn't mean that I don't also consider the 300 km/h statement and Hol Horse fights. I just try to provide more evidence that they are FTL than evidence that they aren't.

Human do have (low) Wall level feats. I myself know people who have survived car crashes and put small cracks in concrete with their skulls.

Do you have any feats that Spider-Man has done that put him at this level though?

And, as I said before, this is all still completely irrelevant. If you can prove Spider-Man is MHS, go ahead. But that doesn't change the fact the calc is still wrong and thus we can't scale his AP or his speed from it.
 
You don't use low end outliers to prove something is a high end outlier. You use consistent feats to prove something is a high end outlier. By definition an outlier is inconsistent with the majority of a characters other feats. So to argue for something to be consistent, you wouldn't use inconsistent things to prove the consistency.

It's like saying Goku surviving attacks from Soul Zamasu is an outlier cause he got hurt by a bullet. It doesn't make sense. Or how about reversing the use of outliers to dispove outliers. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Just use consistent feats to argue for consistency. It actually proves one's point and doesn't make them look like a downplayer.
 
I'm currently starting an experiment that may end with Spider-Man having dozens to hundreds of MHS+ feats.
 
@Ryu

At which point does a "low-end outlier" become a "consistent feat" though? Especially when he apparently doesn't have any MHS feats to begin with? And why would one need to use "normal feats" (how would you define that anyway) when the opposition could always just say "He's not going all out" or "That's a casual feat"?

To prove something is an outlier you have to show them struggling with lesser things. Otherwise it isn't an outlier it's just a "better feat".

And, as I said before, I wasn't even bringing up low-end feats (aside from needing a taxi and failing to catch a criminal), those were literally just his normal feats pulled from a respect thread.
 
@Matt

It's from someone who read a good amount of his appearances already. About 1/4th of them I think. Mostly modern.
 
That doesn't prove that they are good debaters. I have a friend who played every single Shin Megami Tensei game in English but the SNES ones, and he didn't think that the series went beyond Universal.
 
Your friend isn't also actively looking for feats to make SMT as powerful as it can possibly be.
 
Neither is anyone who reaches the conclusion that SMT is easily 2-A. They are just being good debaters.
 
At which point does a "low-end outlier" become a "consistent feat" though?
Irrelevant to what I am saying. What constitutes a low end outlier and consitent feat is case by case and varies based on context. My point is that you don't use an inconsistency to prove something is consistent. That kinda without saying.

And why would one need to use "normal feats" (how would you define that anyway) when the opposition could always just say "He's not going all out" or "That's a casual feat"?
By proving that they aren't going all out or that it isn't a casual feat using the context of these feats. Again, irrelevant to my point that using things you admit are inconsistent to prove something else is inconsistent just doesn't work.
To prove something is an outlier you have to show them struggling with lesser things. Otherwise it isn't an outlier it's just a "better feat".
I know that. The problem is when you start using them struggling with lesser things on an absurd scale that makes the low end an outlier as well. Again, like using Goku getting hurt by a bullet to say him surviving Soul Zamasu is PIS. And why doesn't this logic work the other way then? If you can use low end outliers to disprove high end outliers, why can't one use high end outliers to disprove low end ones. "Hulk losing to a gorilla is an cause he shook infinite planets." Is it perhaps that both the low end and the high end are equally ridiculous and shouldn't be argued with? Cause that's what I'd say.
 
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