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Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries
- Thread starter LOTM_Historian
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LOTM_Historian
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Bump 
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i would suggest calling in a few staff members here for some help or recalling them if they did already comment here before tbhBump
LOTM_Historian
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In one of the newest chapters of Lord of the Mysteries 2/COI, we get a hint that the Original Creator has R>F Transcendence over reality:
Of course, more evidence is needed for the OC's R>F transcendence but we could use this currently as supporting evidence for the Astral World.
Edit: I added it to the LOTM cosmology blog:
This could potentially suggest R>F transcendence for the Original Creator, particularly when we consider the indestructibility and irreducibility of Beyonder characteristics. If we apply this to the Astral World, which scales similarly to the Original Creator, it becomes even more interesting for us. The Original Creator is described as embodying all contradictory concepts, while the Astral World contains all concepts. Furthermore, since Beyonder characteristics are projections from the Astral World and are said to originate from the Original Creator.
Of course, more evidence is needed for the OC's R>F transcendence but we could use this currently as supporting evidence for the Astral World.
Edit: I added it to the LOTM cosmology blog:
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Bump? (I have hope)
LOTM_Historian
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In the latest LOTM 2/COI chapter, we got confirmation that the Door pathway embodies the concept / authority of space itself. While this was already implied through the abilities associated with the Door pathway, I hadn't found a direct statement until now. I've added this information to the blog. Now, we have confirmed both time and space are concepts / authorities in LOTM.
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Alright, back.
You got the full context of that statement?
Yeah, that's a good addition, I suppose.
LOTM_Historian
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In the recent chapters, a character speculated that reality might be nothing more than the dream of the Original Creator. Given that Lord of the Mysteries draws heavily from Lovecraft, this could be a real possibility in the future. However, for now, it's just a speculative theory and should be considered as supporting evidence of qualitative superiority rather than definitive proof.
As for Beyonder characteristics, we know they originate from the Original Creator, who embodied all contradicting concepts. These characteristics also serve as a projection of the Astral World, which holds all concepts. Moreover, as I previously mentioned, Lord of the Mysteries operates under an absolute law known as the Law of Beyonder Characteristic Indestructibility. This law dictates that Beyonder characteristics cannot be destroyed or reduced:
The Astral World is on the same ontological level as the Original Creator since they both show the same characteristics of containing/embodying all concepts.
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BUMP
LOTM_Historian
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The Spirit World should be considered at least 6-dimensional (1-C) in totality. Here’s my reasoning:
First, a space-time continuum with 4 spatial dimensions would be 5D overall (4 spatial + 1 temporal dimension). However, the Spirit World possesses an additional spatial dimension, AND its temporal dimension is equivalent to an extra time axis because in the Spirit World, the past, present, and future exist stacked, layered over one another. This means that each moment in the Spirit World is uncountable infinitely more complex than a moment in a standard space-time continuum. (Imagine an uncountable infinity of snapshots, each representing a full space-time continuum, existing within every single moment.) This results in a 6-dimensional structure (4 spatial + 2 temporal equivalent).
To clarify, think of time as analogous to spatial dimensions. Achieving 4 spatial dimensions requires either an extra spatial axis beyond the familiar three or an uncountable infinite increase in scale from 3D. Applying this logic to time explains the complexity of the Spirit World’s temporal dimension.
Furthermore, the Spirit World could potentially be considered 7D+ (though I'm not entirely sure) because it spans multiple space-time continuums, such as the painting worlds, which are described as different spacetimes. With each additional space-time continuum encompassed by the Spirit World, the complexity of every moment within it multiplies by another uncountable infinity. This results in a structure that is at least six-dimensional, with each added space-time further increasing its dimensionality. Which results is 6D x another uncountable infinity x another x another… etc.
The Spirit World is inherently at least six-dimensional, even before considering the inclusion of other spacetimes. Depending on how many painting worlds or additional spacetimes it encompasses, its dimensionality could expand into the 1-B range.
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I agree since the Spirit World is said to be omnipresent it should indeed include or connect to other dimensions like mirror world, sea of collective subconscious, painting world, Dream festival etc.
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Yeah, that's a good piece of supporting evidence overall. Granted, I want to ask something about this, specifically about the concept of death "dissipating" across an area.
I ask because a general feature of 1-A things is that they are completely indivisible into lower things due to how superior they are over them, and Type 1 Concepts in particular being in that range would necessitate them to be effectively equally and indivisibly present in all the particular things sourced from them as numerically one and the same presence, instead of being "spread out" across things like they're huge invisible blankets. Concepts being able to "dissipate" across a specific area is a pretty far cry from that; basically implies that the concepts in question literally are spread out across space, such that you can mess with them in one area but leave "the part of them that's somewhere else" intact.
If the Spirit World has its own temporal dimension ontop of its 5 spatial dimensions, I'm fine with it being 1-C. Granted, do you have a scan specifically indicating it has that?
That wouldn't really add anything, no. It'd be effectively the same thing as multiple 2-D objects existing in a 3-D space, which then has a time dimension ontop of it; the total structure in that scenario is still 4-D. In this case, the 2-D objects would just be replaced with 4-D spaces, and the 3-D space with a 5-D space.
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The reasoning behind 1-C is a bit complicated. We know that the physical world has higher spatial dimensions. This is in reference to Cattleya in chapter 1196 turning into her Mythical Creature form during a fight which takes place in the physical world. (Narratively there’s nothing to say that there aren’t multiple higher spatial dimensions, but it is never specified so we can only guess it is 4-D) We also know that the spirit world is omnipresent. This is a hyper-consistent claim as there’s not a single place or alternate world with no spirit world. The spirit world is more-so “overlapped” upon the physical. So this is where we get “5D”. (4 spatial + 1 temporal)
The reason behind 6D is not 5-spatial and 1-temporal, but instead 4-spatial 2-temporal. The argument here is that in the spirit world, the past, present and the future all sort of combine into 1 moment. This is the reason why things like divination can tell the future, as it reads the information of the future from the spirit world. Yet, we can clearly see the spirit world also has it’s own time, as the beings who live there and go in it aren’t acausal or any of the sort. All of this leads one to believe that every moment in the spirit world contains the entire timeline of the physical world. Which insinuates that a sort of secondary temporal axis exists, ergo leading to 6-dimensional.
My gripe with this is that, as it has been very clearly demonstrated by the scans above, the spirit world doesn’t abide by normal physics or logic in general. Also it is not exactly clear wether or not the past, present and future are literally there or wether or not they are purely information.
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Is destroying a concept of death in a specific area a contradiction towards Low 1-A and 1-A? Can there be multiple type 1 concepts of death? Like for example one concept of death for every universe? Would that also be a contradiction?
LOTM_Historian
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The world can be understood as divided into three distinct levels: the material world at the lowest level, the spirit world above it, and the highest realm known as the Astral World, or the world of absolute rationality/absolute truth world. Within the material world and spirit world, the source of supernatural power—referred to as Beyonder Characteristics—is actually a projection of an authority in the Astral World. These authorities are immutable and cannot be reduced to lower states. When a manifestation of an authority (the Beyonder characteristic) in the material world is destroyed, it is immediately reformed because its true essence is located in the Astral World, which remains unaffected.
As one ascends in the hierarchy of Beyonder Characteristics, the power becomes increasingly conceptual. This means that these characteristics begin to embody the very concepts projected from the Astral World. Since it has already been established that the powers in the material world are mere manifestations of higher sources, the lesser concepts within the physical realm are projections of the authorities that reside in the Astral World. For instance, the Uniqueness embodies certain conceptions that revolve around a pathway. By combining the Uniqueness and Sequence 1 Beyonder Characteristics (which are the pinnacle of a pathway), one can attain the power to hold an authority from the Astral World and influence everything related to it.
Additionally, the notion that a Sequence 1 artifact could affect or override the authority of death implies that the artifact holds greater power than a Sequence 0 Beyonder, which is narratively impossible and contradicts the established power hierarchy. The Sequence 1 artifact does not affect the true authorities that the Sequence 0s wield. Instead, the artifact interacts with a lesser or derivative aspect of the concept of death, rather than its authority. The derivative here is the concept of death that is/influences the physical world and is like a lesser manifestation of the Astral World’s authority of death.
The past, present, and future are stacked/intersect in the Spirit World, where each moment is uncountable infinitely more complex than a moment in a standard space-time continuum. Within every instant in the spirit world, there is an uncountable infinity of snapshots, since they represent entire space-time continuums. Furthermore, since there exists an uncountable infinity of such moments within the Spirit World itself, amplifying its complexity even further. This makes the Spirit World's single temporal dimension equivalent to two temporal dimensions, as it is uncountably larger than standard time.
Also wouldn't the past, present, and future being stacked in the spirit world, suggest that this realm operates with its own temporal dimension, distinct from the material world?
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More or less my thoughts as well. The scans have the Spirit World explicitly being described as spatial in nature ("Higher spatial dimension"), so the past, present and future being simultaneously present there could well just result in a 5-D space, instead of a 4+1-D space. My gripe with adding an extra dimension to this based on its temporality is that the argument would only work if its time is continuous (And thus forms a proper time dimension), and none of the scans seem to give an indication of this, one way or another. The fact it seems to be an abnormal realm that doesn't necessarily obey physics puts a dent on making assumptions like this, too. So I'd reckon Low 1-C is safer all-in-all.
Yeah, fair enough. Overall I'm fine with 1-A, based on what you just explained + The previously agreed upon stuff + The dream stuff.
Yeah, since a concept of that kind would have to be aspatial and indivisible and as such not spread out over some region. It has no material parts or subdivisions, so there's no such thing as "The part of it that's in place X, as opposed to the part of it that's in place Y." It's all numerically one and the same whole, present everywhere.
So, for example: If you have an area of 30 m³, and then a smaller region marked off in the middle of it measuring 15 km³. The concept of "Space" wouldn't be extended or distributed unequally across that place, so that you could destroy it only in the smaller region while leaving the rest of the area untouched, as if it was a huge invisible sheet laid over it. Instead the concept would have to be entirely and equally present both to the whole 30 km³ area and to the 15 km³ region, so that interfering with it in any way results in both being equally affected.
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Though, while you're at it, you should rummage through this page and see if there is anything that might be problematic for 1-A in there.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Thanks for answering my question. I've asked you another one on your wall to not derail this thread
LOTM_Historian
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Nice, should I add an agree/disagree counter to the post?
So far everything looks consistent. Like looking at potential disqualifiers:Though, while you're at it, you should rummage through this page and see if there is anything that might be problematic for 1-A in there.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
As previously mentioned, in Lord of the Mysteries, true power comes from accommodating Beyonder Characteristics, which are projections of Astral World authorities. Unlike other series, traditional training and or simply accumulating lower-level characteristics won't grant you an authority. Instead, you need the innate metaphysical potential known as Uniqueness. Only with this, one can become a Sequence 0 and attain the power over an authority from the Astral World.
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Sure.
LOTM_Historian
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Alright, added it
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Ofc, I also agree.
LOTM_Historian
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Alright, I’ll add others to the agree counter and keep the staff bolded, just like in the H1-A Dragon Talisman CRT. Hopefully, we can get some more admins involved in this thread as well.
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In order for the upgrade to be accepted what else do we need? Approval from other admins? If so, will u tag them or should we do that?
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I recomend you ask @DarkDragonMedeus to give input, he always come to any threads if you ask him for help
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Looks alright.
LOTM_Historian
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Since we have approval from three staff members, should we start implementing the changes?
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You should note down all the profiles that will be affected and link them. @LOTM_Historian
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Before you go on to do that: Can you tell me who scales to the 1-A in here, and the exact reason why?
LOTM_Historian
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I assume that only True Gods (Sequence 0) and higher entities, such as Great Old Ones, Pillars, and the Original Creator, should be 1-A because they have control over one or more authorities.
However, the strongest feat (aside from fighting in the Astral World) we've observed from Sequence 0s so far is shaking Sefirah Castle, which you mentioned would only rank at L1-C. Despite this, their power over authorities leads me to believe they should still qualify for 1-A.
As of now, we only have two characters listed at this level: Dual Sequence 0 Amon and Klein Moretti. I am planning on adding more characters on this level though.'
For characters below this level, such as Angels and Demigods, they would cap at L1-C.
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7-C to 1-A is a bit of an eyebrow-raising jump. Can you give me a rundown of the reason behind their scaling? It's occured to me that this thread's been focusing mostly on cosmology without getting too much into the specifics of that.
LOTM_Historian
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Ah, yes, the idea of classifying True Gods at the Town Level just because they could grow as large as a mountain back when they were angels was never accurate. Additionally, even though the profiles list Dual Sequence 0 Amon at Town Level, by the ending fight of the first book, he was clearly stronger than Sequence 0 Klein, who created a Star and Eternal Blazing Sun who shook Sefirah Castle itself.
Furthermore, only feats from the material world were considered previously, while the Astral World and Spirit World were overlooked. Because we focused solely on material world feats, massive DC feats were not accounted for, as Earth is protected by a barrier from the Original Creator that shields it from the Outer Gods.
As a result, we have not accounted for feats such as the aura of a weakened, sleeping Celestial Worthy shaking the entire Astral World.
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While I would be stoked for LOTM to be 1A, a few disqualifiers need to be addressed.
Specifically, a bunch of Angels and a True God can murder the Ancient Sun God, who at the time was almost awakened as God Almighty (a persona of the Original Creator). The fact that Rose Redemption can conceal their plot from ASG, the being who had authority over wisdom and omniscience, and even managed to kill ASG with some angels and a single True God would be questionable. Never mind that the single True God could only conceal the plot, and required the help of multiple angels to kill ASG (the Subsidiary Gods were angels at the time of the event).
Another disqualifier is regarding the Astral World. It is the barrier that protects the Earth from the Outer Gods, each True God's divine kingdom is situated in it to mend that barrier. There are multiple disqualifiers, such as the Astral World only exists within the barrier of the Earth, the concepts inside the Astral World being localized to create a firmament (such as the symbolism and authorities creating a painting of the sun, which everyone on the planet sees), and True Gods being able to physically fight within the Astral World. In conclusion, the Astral World is not similar to Plato's world of Idealized Forms at all.
Who can forget the great battle of Klein and Amon! Klein grafts the environment to create a supernova and significantly damages Amon, so Amon uses his Door authority to turn into concepts and symbolism of himself to survive. For a 1A character to be almost killed by a physical phenomenon should add some doubts to the CRT. Amon is required to turn into personal concepts using his Dual God authority, this should create debates about the quality and superiority of concepts in the verse.
To Ultima, the ASG was a half-pillar (above sequence 0 True Gods, above Outer Gods), and Amon was a Dual God (True God of Error and Door pathway).
If you can remove these doubts then I would be ecstatic because this is my favorite web novel.
Specifically, a bunch of Angels and a True God can murder the Ancient Sun God, who at the time was almost awakened as God Almighty (a persona of the Original Creator). The fact that Rose Redemption can conceal their plot from ASG, the being who had authority over wisdom and omniscience, and even managed to kill ASG with some angels and a single True God would be questionable. Never mind that the single True God could only conceal the plot, and required the help of multiple angels to kill ASG (the Subsidiary Gods were angels at the time of the event).
Another disqualifier is regarding the Astral World. It is the barrier that protects the Earth from the Outer Gods, each True God's divine kingdom is situated in it to mend that barrier. There are multiple disqualifiers, such as the Astral World only exists within the barrier of the Earth, the concepts inside the Astral World being localized to create a firmament (such as the symbolism and authorities creating a painting of the sun, which everyone on the planet sees), and True Gods being able to physically fight within the Astral World. In conclusion, the Astral World is not similar to Plato's world of Idealized Forms at all.
Who can forget the great battle of Klein and Amon! Klein grafts the environment to create a supernova and significantly damages Amon, so Amon uses his Door authority to turn into concepts and symbolism of himself to survive. For a 1A character to be almost killed by a physical phenomenon should add some doubts to the CRT. Amon is required to turn into personal concepts using his Dual God authority, this should create debates about the quality and superiority of concepts in the verse.
To Ultima, the ASG was a half-pillar (above sequence 0 True Gods, above Outer Gods), and Amon was a Dual God (True God of Error and Door pathway).
If you can remove these doubts then I would be ecstatic because this is my favorite web novel.
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The rest of the post will be addressed by someone and a lot of it is framed in a pretty bad way and out of context but I'll address this part
Not necessarily an issue to fight physically in a 1-A conceptual realm since in this case they're not "physically" fighting but "meta-physically" (being a higher level of existence or physicality in the AW) fighting within the higher realm. It's just fiction being goofy with stuff and it's not inherently a problem. An actual Plato's world of forms would be tier 0 and isn't actually a world or place in any sense.
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LOTM_Historian
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Wait, what? The Ancient Sun God knew about the plan all along... That’s why he prepared Adam as a vessel for his revival. The Ancient Sun God was significantly weakened by the God Almighty awakening within him. We don’t even know how he actually died, only the symbolic significance of it, and that was 4,000 years before Klein’s transmigration. Also, I don't see how this would disqualify anything.
The Astral World absolutely does not exist within just the barrier. No, random humans can’t just look up and see the barrier, the divine kingdoms, or anything like that…
The Sun, Moon, and the planets beyond the barrier in the material world are all inhabited by Outer Gods. Recall when Klein first learned about the Outer Gods, many of the planets near Earth are home to them The moon's crimson color is a direct result of the influence of the Mother Goddess of Depravity and the Mother Tree of Desire.
I'll address the rest when I get home.
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1st thing. The ASG knew of Rose Redemption and helped build it, but he did NOT know that Herabergen, Leodero, and Aucuses would betray him and take his Beyonder Characteristics. The creation of The True Creator was because of ASG's Hanged Man Beyonder Characteristic + humanity + anger at the betrayal. If ASG planned all of this, then he wouldn't have been trying to murder the three betrayers and reclaim his authority in the new book.
2nd thing. ASG was not weakened by God Almighty. That is never stated in the story, we only know that ASG tried to weaken himself by creating Adam and Amon to carry his Beyonder Characteristic. Even then, he wouldn't be weakened to the point that a group of tier 7s would be able to murder a tier 1A. That gap is insurmountable beyond just infinities.
3rd thing. We do know how he died. In Book 1, Klein was able to pry into the past of the Unshadowed Crucifix and saw ASG being gained up by the angels.
Where are the True God's divine kingdoms located? In the barrier, in attempt to mend the barrier.The Astral World absolutely does not exist within just the barrier. No, random humans can’t just look up and see the barrier, the divine kingdoms, or anything like that…
The Sun, Moon, and the planets beyond the barrier in the material world are all inhabited by Outer Gods. Recall when Klein first learned about the Outer Gods, many of the planets near Earth are home to them The moon's crimson color is a direct result of the influence of the Mother Goddess of Depravity and the Mother Tree of Desire.
I'll address the rest when I get home.
Why do the True Gods advocate for the rise of another True God? SO another True God can help mend the barrier.
Where do the characters believe the True Gods are located? In the Astral World, the World of the Gods.
Where do the True Gods fight when Klein takes his apotheosis ritual? In the Astral World.
What is the Astral World depicted as? Klein says the Astral World is a canvas (you know, something with a surface and end) where the Gods paint symbolism and authority. A painting of the sun is seen. (One of the things the True Gods paint because the real sun is corrupted by the Outer Gods)
I want you to consider these things. If the Astral World is not in the barrier, then how come the Outer Gods who are hungry to devour everything from Earth not already corrupting the True Gods? If the Astral World is not in the barrier, how come the True Gods can live in their divine kingdoms without worrying about the Outer Gods just killing them? If the Astral World is not in the barrier, then how come the True Gods can fight in the Astral World and the Outer Gods do literally nothing about that opportunity? How come when the Outer Gods DO try to influence the battle, it is through limited means like every time they try to influence anything inside the barrier?
Edit: I have homework to do, maybe I'll be able to communicate more tomorrow. (If university does not give me more homework)
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LOTM_Historian
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First, he was undoubtedly weakened just like what Klein is currently experiencing. Secondly, Kings of Angels are far beyond town-level strength, and, to top it off, they had the support of a 1-A True God.
I do not remember this, could you send me the chapter so I can verify?
Please provide evidence of the Sun being corrupted by the Outer Gods. If this claim is accurate, how is the crimson moon still visible? Additionally, show proof that people can simply fly to the Astral World and directly observe the divine kingdoms of the True Gods hovering above them. This is the first time I've seen someone say the Astral World is just up.
Moreover, why would the Sun being visible even matter? It's well-established that the Eternal Blazing Sun can direct sunlight wherever he pleases, and it requires his consent, as demonstrated in Volume 3 of Book 2.
Did you even read the scan I sent you? The barrier is also within the Astral World as well, it's just that the Astral World extends past the barrier.
edit: i need to wake up early tomorrow, so ill address the following stuff then.
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