Upgrading Lord of the Mysteries

[Zenkaibattery1]

I find myself agreeing with Historian, seeing as he's actually providing sources/scans.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

Specifically, a bunch of Angels and a True God can murder the Ancient Sun God, who at the time was almost awakened as God Almighty (a persona of the Original Creator). The fact that Rose Redemption can conceal their plot from ASG, the being who had authority over wisdom and omniscience, and even managed to kill ASG with some angels and a single True God would be questionable. Never mind that the single True God could only conceal the plot, and required the help of multiple angels to kill ASG (the Subsidiary Gods were angels at the time of the event).

Do we even know how the fight went and what they used(might have used help from sefirahs like evernight used drop of water against CW) ? If ASG was helping the rose redemption during the fight by limiting/negating the use of chaos sea by GA then it's not impossible to fight against ATS god since he'll just be equivalent to god with multiple pathways but not sefirah.

They had Evernight who has authority over concealment there's also sasrir who has partial control over chaos sea there it perfectly makes sense that they were able to hide it from ASG. The traitor trio used it for their own advantage.

And by looking at what's happening to klein and CW atm it makes perfect sense that ASG even with his omniscience will not be able to know about the betrayal because he's barely conscious himself and has to constantly fight with GA's will for the control of the body.

 

[Super_Nova]

1st thing. The ASG knew of Rose Redemption and helped build it, but he did NOT know that Herabergen, Leodero, and Aucuses would betray him and take his Beyonder Characteristics. The creation of The True Creator was because of ASG's Hanged Man Beyonder Characteristic + humanity + anger at the betrayal. If ASG planned all of this, then he wouldn't have been trying to murder the three betrayers and reclaim his authority in the new book.
2nd thing. ASG was not weakened by God Almighty. That is never stated in the story, we only know that ASG tried to weaken himself by creating Adam and Amon to carry his Beyonder Characteristic. Even then, he wouldn't be weakened to the point that a group of tier 7s would be able to murder a tier 1A. That gap is insurmountable beyond just infinities.
3rd thing. We do know how he died. In Book 1, Klein was able to pry into the past of the Unshadowed Crucifix and saw ASG being gained up by the angels.

I find it a bit weird how you agree that ASG orchestrated his own assassination and then say he was beat by a bunch of angels. We don’t actually know how ASG got killed at that time, but frankly it doesn’t matter. Characters like Amanises were already Sequence 0 at that point, so they were already at the “same level of reality”.

The betrayal was Aucuses, Herabergen and Leodero simply eating his corpse and effectively absorbing the corresponding characteristics. Because he no longer had the characteristics, he could no longer revive.

Where are the True God's divine kingdoms located? In the barrier, in attempt to mend the barrier.
Why do the True Gods advocate for the rise of another True God? SO another True God can help mend the barrier.
Where do the characters believe the True Gods are located? In the Astral World, the World of the Gods.
Where do the True Gods fight when Klein takes his apotheosis ritual? In the Astral World.
What is the Astral World depicted as? Klein says the Astral World is a canvas (you know, something with a surface and end) where the Gods paint symbolism and authority. A painting of the sun is seen. (One of the things the True Gods paint because the real sun is corrupted by the Outer Gods)

I want you to consider these things. If the Astral World is not in the barrier, then how come the Outer Gods who are hungry to devour everything from Earth not already corrupting the True Gods? If the Astral World is not in the barrier, how come the True Gods can live in their divine kingdoms without worrying about the Outer Gods just killing them? If the Astral World is not in the barrier, then how come the True Gods can fight in the Astral World and the Outer Gods do literally nothing about that opportunity? How come when the Outer Gods DO try to influence the battle, it is through limited means like every time they try to influence anything inside the barrier?

I like how you completely ignored @LOTM_Historian. As he showed in the scan, the Astral World extends into the cosmos as well.

1. Because of this fact that it also extends to the cosmos, Planeswalkers are able to traverse the cosmos through the Astral World by becoming symbols.

2. Have you not considered the fact that the barrier also extends to the Astral World? Like how the Astral Realm is realm located throughout the entire universe like how the Spirit World is? Because I could ask the exact same question for the Spirit World as well, because the barrier very clearly also extends to it. The fact is that the barrier only extends to the part of the Astral Realm that is “located in Earth”.

3. We see the crimson moon/Mother Goddess of Depravity clearly in the Astral World after Klein enters it.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

Another disqualifier is regarding the Astral World. It is the barrier that protects the Earth from the Outer Gods, each True God's divine kingdom is situated in it to mend that barrier. There are multiple disqualifiers, such as the Astral World only exists within the barrier of the Earth, the concepts inside the Astral World being localized to create a firmament (such as the symbolism and authorities creating a painting of the sun, which everyone on the planet sees), and True Gods being able to physically fight within the Astral World. In conclusion, the Astral World is not similar to Plato's world of Idealized Forms at all.

if the Astral world is just a barrier over the earth formed by OC then how is it possible to travel to the cosmos using wandering ? since the door pathway uses the astral world for wandering it's not just a barrier over earth and it's atleast omnipresent like Spirit World.

Everyone on the planet sees ? ok you must be reading a fanfic version of LOTM unless you can show scans. Bro just knowing some information on spirit world is enough to drive normal human and even beyonders insane and you think every human is seeing the Astral world ?

It's been mentioned multiple times that the gods do reside on Astral world now and the barrier also exist there. It makes sense that the barrier strong enough to hold all the outer gods will be there because it's the strongest structure in the verse holding all the symbolism, authority and concepts. Also even if the essence of the barrier lies inside the Astral World it's omnipresent around the earth in physical, spirit and Astral world.

EDIT : Your whole argument about the Astral world is debunked with this.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

Why do the True Gods advocate for the rise of another True God? SO another True God can help mend the barrier.

that's not true at all they wanted black emperor to bring law and order in the material world. if there were a true god present in the material world a lot of things in COI wouldn't have happened. It's mainly to prevent the followers of outer god causing chaos in material world and disrupting the anchors of the true gods who are mending the barrier.

Where do the characters believe the True Gods are located? In the Astral World, the World of the Gods.

IT's not believing klein has gone there personally to meet with the goddess.

where the Gods paint symbolism and authority

i want to see scan for this because you're making shit up.

Where do the True Gods fight when Klein takes his apotheosis ritual? In the Astral World.

maybe because they don't want to accidentally kill all their anchors and destroy earth ?

One of the things the True Gods paint because the real sun is corrupted by the Outer Gods

okay i'm convinced you have read the fanfic because the only thing close to this in the book is klein theorizing maybe the real sun is destroyed by the outer gods and EBS is posing as sun in the sky.

I have homework to do, maybe I'll be able to communicate more tomorrow. (If university does not give me more homework)

after doing your homework please reread the book because most of the stuff you're saying is straight up lie and do provide scans for your evidence.

 

[Kavliaris]

I assume that only True Gods (Sequence 0) and higher entities, such as Great Old Ones, Pillars, and the Original Creator, should be 1-A because they have control over one or more authorities.

However, the strongest feat (aside from fighting in the Astral World) we've observed from Sequence 0s so far is shaking Sefirah Castle, which you mentioned would only rank at L1-C. Despite this, their power over authorities leads me to believe they should still qualify for 1-A.

As of now, we only have two characters listed at this level: Dual Sequence 0 Amon and Klein Moretti. I am planning on adding more characters on this level though.'

For characters below this level, such as Angels and Demigods, they would cap at L1-C.

Cmiiw, is it safe to say Rose Redemption can harm half-pillar with combination of 3 KoA with uniqeiness + 3 KoA (each having two seq 1) and one True God? enough bridge the gap between L1-C with 1-A?

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Cmiiw, is it safe to say Rose Redemption can harm half-pillar with combination of 3 KoA with uniqeiness + 3 KoA (each having two seq 1) and one True God? enough bridge the gap between L1-C with 1-A?

Like the others have pointed out above your message, we don't have the exact details of how the battle unfolded or how Ancient Sun God died. However, even if he was physically affected by L1-C's, it would still be acceptable. Since if we reference the tiering system:

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Authorities in Lord of the Mysteries is the "metaphysical potential rotated from a higher reality" that gives LOTM gods 1-A AP and Hax. Beyonder powers originate from external objects, specifically Beyonder Characteristics and Uniquenesses, which are projections from the Astral World. Additionally, as mentioned earlier in this thread, authorities continue to exist even if their holder dies. A god's physical body is not tied to their authority; you can kill a god, but the authority remains intact regardless.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

Like the others have pointed out above your message, we don't have the exact details of how the battle unfolded or how Ancient Sun God died. However, even if he was physically affected by L1-C's, it would still be acceptable. Since if we reference the tiering system:

More on this

since we have an example of klein's internal battle with CW for the control of the body we can see how vulnerable klein is rn and he's barely even conscious. And since ASG did want to kill himself in order to reduce the corruption from GA his condition might be equal if not worse than klein at that time.

And the fight itself is not as simple as ASG vs Rose Redemption.
It's more like Will of GA in ASG VS ASG himself and Rose Redemption.

 

[Lycenum_lycopersicum]

i agree with authorities being 1-A. However this will make only OC to have 1-A existence. the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority". Same principle should apply for GOO and Pillars. there might be an argument for pillars having 1-a existence via being personas of OC but given the fact that GA and CW died but not their authorities i don't think we can equate them with authorities exactly, they leave mental imprint on characteristics the same way high-end beyonders do, just to way bigger degree. so i assume GOO and Pillars still 1-A via Authority like true gods but just with a broader application for what goes under their 'jurisdiction'

 

[Solid0of0]

i agree with authorities being 1-A. However this will make only OC to have 1-A existence. the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority". Same principle should apply for GOO and Pillars. there might be an argument for pillars having 1-a existence via being personas of OC but given the fact that GA and CW died but not their authorities i don't think we can equate them with authorities exactly, they leave mental imprint on characteristics the same way high-end beyonders do, just to way bigger degree. so i assume GOO and Pillars still 1-A via Authority like true gods but just with a broader application for what goes under their 'jurisdiction'

Yea I agree, this should at least be the bare minimum. We should proceed with this for now.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

i agree with authorities being 1-A. However this will make only OC to have 1-A existence. the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority". Same principle should apply for GOO and Pillars. there might be an argument for pillars having 1-a existence via being personas of OC but given the fact that GA and CW died but not their authorities i don't think we can equate them with authorities exactly, they leave mental imprint on characteristics the same way high-end beyonders do, just to way bigger degree. so i assume GOO and Pillars still 1-A via Authority like true gods but just with a broader application for what goes under their 'jurisdiction'

I agree, this is the safest option. Let's move forward with this approach.

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

i agree with authorities being 1-A. However this will make only OC to have 1-A existence. the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority". Same principle should apply for GOO and Pillars. there might be an argument for pillars having 1-a existence via being personas of OC but given the fact that GA and CW died but not their authorities i don't think we can equate them with authorities exactly, they leave mental imprint on characteristics the same way high-end beyonders do, just to way bigger degree. so i assume GOO and Pillars still 1-A via Authority like true gods but just with a broader application for what goes under their 'jurisdiction'

I agree with this as well.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority".

Why exactly don't they fully scale to the Authorities?

 

[Lycenum_lycopersicum]

Why exactly don't they fully scale to the Authorities?

i will give concise rundown on how one climbs up to authority

The origin of LOTM universe is The Original Creator, the all-inclusive amalgamation of symbolisms and concepts.

Authorities,which are kind of his "body parts", is what this thread scales to 1-a based on its representation in the story exc

He is also the source of all Beyonder Characteristics - that is, the thing that gives superpowers to someone who consumed it

As pointed out previously in the thread, those characteristics themselves are just projections from the objects residing in Astral World

Beyonder Characteristics are grouped into hierarchial structures called "pathway" from sequence 9(lowest) to sequence 0. each pathway revolves around 1 authority

by consuming Beyonder Characteristics one assimilates and familiarizes oneself with the object in the Astral World that these Characteristics are projections of

There is entire process of this assimilation called 'acting method' in the story

So shortly it goes like this: one consumes Sequence 9 Characteristic, assimilates it, then sequence 8, sequence 7 exc till they consume 3 sequence 1 characteristics + uniqueness of the pathway to become sequence 0.. By the time one becomes sequence 0, one is enough 'assimilated' with the corresponding authority to use it.

it is important to note that there is no 'acting method' for sequence 0, so they use authority more like their hax rather than it being intrstic part of their existence

Gods can be killed by other Gods, however authority cannot be destroyed. Once God dies, authority is simply relinquished from his grasp

 

[Ultima_Reality]

it is important to note that there is no 'acting method' for sequence 0, so they use authority more like their hax rather than it being intrstic part of their existence

Gods can be killed by other Gods, however authority cannot be destroyed. Once God dies, authority is simply relinquished from his grasp

What does the usage of an Authority entail, exactly? What can they do to the Authority itself? Can they, say, rewrite it? Can they destroy it?

 

[Lycenum_lycopersicum]

What does the usage of an Authority entail, exactly? What can they do to the Authority itself? Can they, say, rewrite it? Can they destroy it?

With the authority they can control corresponding concepts. For example having the authority of death allows one to control corresponding phenomena and related mysticism such as death, underworld, spirits, decay exc. authority allows to change and manipulate these things, however Gods themselves can't destroy authority nor alter/rewrite its fundamentals. The highest feat in the series is performed by the character who is a 'Pillar'(term in the story used to refer to someone using multiple authorities of compatible pathways in comparison to the 'True God' who uses only 1 authority). This feat was shaking the Astral World that houses all authorities, however even he cannot destroy the authority itself

 

[Ultima_Reality]

With the authority they can control corresponding concepts. For example having the authority of death allows one to control corresponding phenomena and related mysticism such as death, underworld, spirits, decay exc. authority allows to change and manipulate these things, however Gods themselves can't destroy authority nor alter/rewrite its fundamentals. The highest feat in the series is performed by the character who is a 'Pillar'(term in the story used to refer to someone using multiple authorities of compatible pathways in comparison to the 'True God' who uses only 1 authority). This feat was shaking the Astral World that houses all authorities, however even he cannot destroy the authority itself

Hm. It seems that the only actually 1-A thing is the Astral World itself and the feat of shaking it, then (Provided everything's still in place, that is. I haven't checked the recent back-and-forth yet). Having an Authority seems like it would he moreso smurfy Conceptual Manipulation, or probably not even that, since the Authorities themselves aren't being affected in any way, and are moreso just "actuated" (As in, the characters have power over everything that springs from these essences, but not over the essences themselves)

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

It seems that the only actually 1-A thing is the Astral World itself and the feat of shaking it

The shaking of Astral world was caused by the Aura of a weakened pillar and another pillar is the ruler of the astral world so he should have some level of control over it. I think Pillars and GOO's should comfortably be 1A.

Having an Authority seems like it would he moreso smurfy Conceptual Manipulation, or probably not even that, since the Authorities themselves aren't being affected in any way, and are moreso just "actuated"

What do you mean ? So should Gods be low 1A(their hax) ? Where do you scale them ?

 

[Super_Nova]

Hm. It seems that the only actually 1-A thing is the Astral World itself and the feat of shaking it, then (Provided everything's still in place, that is. I haven't checked the recent back-and-forth yet). Having an Authority seems like it would he moreso smurfy Conceptual Manipulation, or probably not even that, since the Authorities themselves aren't being affected in any way, and are moreso just "actuated" (As in, the characters have power over everything that springs from these essences, but not over the essences themselves)

I generally agree with this sentiment.

As we’ve already postulated, Authorities exist independently of anyone actually embodying them and are indestructible. For example, the concept of space didn’t suddenly cease to exist just because there was no Sequence 0: Door currently existing. Similarly, time didn’t cease to exist because there was no S0: Error.

So I would agree on the fact that these Sequence 0’s only have control over the things which these Authorities represent, and that they cannot destroy their own “essence”. Like S0: Door can’t just destroy the “authority of space” or any of the like, but he does have control over space itself and the more derivative concepts that come from it (which I’ll touch upon in a later paragraph). Which I think can very well scale to something like Low 1-A.

Now, as you’ve mentioned, shaking the Astral Realm might be 1-A, but the question remains what extent of “effect” one needs to achieve over an Authority to qualify for the same tier as it. Like destroying it would for sure be 1-A, but would shaking it also be 1-A?

Now as for the “conceptual manipulation”, I think we need to clarify some things. I wouldn’t say these character have “smurfy” concept manip. Its just moreso that they can affect non-1-A concepts. For example, if you remember the earlier scan about “dispersing the concept of death”, the concept of death here doesn’t refer to the very authority of death, but moreso a non-1-A abstract concept that isn’t located in the Astral World. Another example, Klein created the conceptualized object of a star, which as the very scan itself states, is only an abstract non-physical concept which then Klein could actualize into reality. But, it is NOT the very “authority of a star” which is 1-A.

So in essence, what I want to make clear is that there exists 2 types of concepts in LOTM: The 1-A Authorities, and the non-1-A conceptual objects, symbols etc. (Which both make up the Astral World, as Planeswalkers for example can temporarily exist in there as “symbols” while at the same time it also contains “Authorities” )

In that sense, as I mentioned earlier, wether or not these characters are 1-A would depend on what actions constitute effecting Authorities as 1-A.

(If you need a scan for any of these just ask, I was simply too lazy to put all of them here)

 

[Rez]

Now, as you’ve mentioned, shaking the Astral Realm might be 1-A, but the question remains what extent of “effect” one needs to achieve over an Authority to qualify for the same tier as it. Like destroying it would for sure be 1-A, but would shaking it also be 1-A?

I think the pillars and goo should scale to 1-A stuff for sure, mostly cause what you already mentioned and Adam using chaos sea to create illusory authorities to temporarily access the power at the level of above the sequence

Just as “He” said that, “He” proclaimed in a solemn and deep voice, “I am One, and also Infinity, the Beginning and the End.” “His” eyes suddenly turned illusory as an ocean that seemed to contain all possible colors that appeared around “Him.” Adam then raised “His” hand and grabbed the silver cross pendant hanging in front of “His” chest. A burning but illusory sun suddenly appeared above “His” head. To “His” left, lightning, squalls, and waves formed a supercilious phantom. On “His” right, there was a white tower with numerous brass eyes. The authorities and symbols that Adam had envisioned entered “His” body one after another under the influence of the Chaos Sea. Finally, the shadow that clung tightly to Adam’s back shrank into “His” body. Suddenly, the sea that contained all the colors began to rise. Adam expanded into a giant shadow that seemed capable of holding up the world. The shadow slowly walked on the “water surface” of the illusory, chaotic darkness. It pointed at the astral world and solemnly declared, “Let there be light!”

He” chose the two pathways of Visionary and The Hanged Man as “His” foundation for “His” resurrection because, apart from them having the trait of resurrecting, this was also the result of “His” research: this had the highest chance of becoming God Almighty. After using either one of the two pathways of Visionary and The Hanged Man to become a true god and gaining initial control over the Chaos Sea, “He” could take back the remaining Uniquenesses and Sequence 1 Beyonder characteristics. This was the easiest path to advance to the Lord of the Astral World. And in this matter, there was something more special about Visionary than The Hanged Man. When the Visionary first gained control of the Chaos Sea and accommodated a second Uniqueness and corresponding Sequence 1 Beyonder characteristic to a certain extent, “He” could “Envision” the remaining, fake symbolism and authority, allowing “Him” to briefly obtain strength that transcended the Sequences, giving “Him” half a Great Old One’s strength.

Also Amon did something similar with the help of sefirah castle during the fool's gambit.

Also goo are directly stated to represent a certain aspect of the universe

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Hm. It seems that the only actually 1-A thing is the Astral World itself and the feat of shaking it, then (Provided everything's still in place, that is. I haven't checked the recent back-and-forth yet). Having an Authority seems like it would he moreso smurfy Conceptual Manipulation, or probably not even that, since the Authorities themselves aren't being affected in any way, and are moreso just "actuated" (As in, the characters have power over everything that springs from these essences, but not over the essences themselves)

Alright, it seems we're reaching a consensus here.

Based on what you've mentioned:

• Original Creator: 1-A
• Pillars: 1-A (Due to the Celestial Worthy's ability to shake the Astral World and God Almighty being named the ruler of the Astral World)
• Great Old Ones: 1-A? (These entities are stronger than Gods but are not classified as Pillars)
• True Gods / Sequence 0: Low 1-A or Low 1-C? (Considering their control over everything that stems from these essences, would you say Low 1-A is more appropriate?)

I think we can move forward with what you decide regarding this.

 

[Bahaha]

I find it a bit weird how you agree that ASG orchestrated his own assassination and then say he was beat by a bunch of angels. We don’t actually know how ASG got killed at that time, but frankly it doesn’t matter. Characters like Amanises were already Sequence 0 at that point, so they were already at the “same level of reality”.

The betrayal was Aucuses, Herabergen and Leodero simply eating his corpse and effectively absorbing the corresponding characteristics. Because he no longer had the characteristics, he could no longer revive.

I do not remember this, could you send me the chapter so I can verify?

We are given information by both the Unshadowed Crucifix and Sasris about the death of ASG. They both tell us that the group of angels was able to murder ASG, the second scene Klein sees from the Unshadowed Crucifix is the moment ASG is attacked by the angels and murdered. The True God's blood on the Unshadowed Crucifix was from that exact moment of ASG's death. Even when ASG wanted to kill himself, the angels having the capability to enact that murder and transverse the gap between tier 7 and tier 1-A is ridiculous.

Did you even read the scan I sent you? The barrier is also within the Astral World as well, it's just that the Astral World extends past the barrier.

Did you even read the scan you sent?
Aurora tells Lumian "As for the astral world, it originally referred to the world of gods, but now, the
entire cosmos needs to be included in that definition." IT LITERALLY TELLS US THAT THE ASTRAL WORLD DID NOT ORIGINALLY INCLUDE THE COSMOS. The quote "originally referred to the world of gods" reinforces my argument that the Astral World is originally the location of the divine kingdoms, aka the barrier. Your logic of the Astral World encompassing the cosmos is refuted by your very scans.
By the way, Aurora is a low-level sequence character who knows NOTHING about the situation with True Gods. You can't use her for the fundamental cosmology of the verse.
Another important detail to note is that this is from LOTM 2(COI), which is fundamentally different and dramatically changed from LOTM due to the influence of the Cosmos on the planet after the weakening of the barrier (the novel is situated around the eve of the apocalypse) to the point there can be entities like Termiborous (Outer God angel) walking the Earth. The author has stated he increased the influence of the Outer Gods in the story for Book 3 and the Apocalypse.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I'm currently in lecture for the next few hours, so I won't be able to fully respond right now.

We are given information by both the Unshadowed Crucifix and Sasris about the death of ASG. They both tell us that the group of angels was able to murder ASG, the second scene Klein sees from the Unshadowed Crucifix is the moment ASG is attacked by the angels and murdered. The True God's blood on the Unshadowed Crucifix was from that exact moment of ASG's death. Even when ASG wanted to kill himself, the angels having the capability to enact that murder and transverse the gap between tier 7 and tier 1-A is ridiculous.


Did you even read the scan you sent?
Aurora tells Lumian "As for the astral world, it originally referred to the world of gods, but now, the
entire cosmos needs to be included in that definition." IT LITERALLY TELLS US THAT THE ASTRAL WORLD DID NOT ORIGINALLY INCLUDE THE COSMOS. The quote "originally referred to the world of gods" reinforces my argument that the Astral World was originally only the Divine Kingdom of the True Gods in the barrier. Your logic of the Astral World encompassing the cosmos is refuted by your very scans.
By the way, Aurora is a low-level sequence character who knows NOTHING about the situation with True Gods. You can't use her for the fundamental cosmology of the verse.
Another important detail to note is that this is from LOTM 2(COI), which is fundamentally different and dramatically changed from LOTM due to the influence of the Cosmos on the planet after the weakening of the barrier (the novel is situated around the eve of the apocalypse) to the point there can be entities like Termiborous (Outer God angel) walking the Earth. The author has stated he increased the influence of the Outer Gods in the story for Book 3 and the Apocalypse.

But brother, I really need you to consider this carefully: if the Astral World only exists around earth, does that mean Beyonders don't exist beyond it? Remember, Beyonder Characteristics are projections of the Astral World.

Please give this some thought, especially since we know there are numerous gods, Great Old Ones, Beyonders that exist outside of Earth and we have shown direct scans that completely contradict what you are saying.

Also the person who told Lumian about the the cosmos and the astral world being the same is Fors (an angel), not Aurore. Also “by not originally included” means by the definition of normal humans or those who are ignorant.

I’ll respond to the rest when I get home tonight. From a quick glance of what you wrote, a lot of it was refuted by others on this page already, I suggest you go read it.

 

[Bahaha]

But brother, I really need you to consider this carefully: if the Astral World only exists around earth, does that mean Beyonders don't exist beyond it? Remember, Beyonder Characteristics are projections of the Astral World.

Please give this some thought, especially since we know there are numerous gods, Great Old Ones, Beyonders that exist outside of Earth and we have shown direct scans that completely contradict what you are saying.

That is the theory by the Life School of Thought and is never stated anywhere else again. I haven't read all of the second novel yet (only completed the first volume) but during the first volume that theory is never reinstated again. No other characters have mentioned this theory, and we know it is bogus because the Original Creator is the reason Beyonder Characteristics exist.

Also the person who told Lumian about the the cosmos and the astral world being the same is Fors, not Aurore. Also “by not originally included” means by the definition of normal humans or those who are ignorant.

My bad. I found the chapter that the scan was from chapter 30, and in my tipsy state, I thought it was Aurore the one talking. However, your argument doesn't hold because no non-beyonders or ritualists know about the Astral World.

 

[Bahaha]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON has refuted or even addressed the antifeat to tier 1-A of Amon being almost killed by the supernova phenomenon Klein grafts in their battle. The fact a tier-1A had to become a conceptual creature to escape a supernova should discredit any tier 1-A beings other than OC.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

NOT A SINGLE PERSON has refuted or even addressed the antifeat to tier 1-A of Amon being almost killed by the supernova phenomenon Klein grafts in their battle. The fact a tier-1A had to become a conceptual creature to escape a supernova should discredit any tier 1-A beings other than OC.

We literally did on this page...

 

[Bahaha]

We literally did on this page...

I have looked through this page two times now but still have not seen anything of the sorts. Everyone talked about the Astral World and ASG's death but not Amon. Can you link the comment if you have.

Another anti-feat I realized while going through the novel to find scans is Klein himself saying he would die in a supernova.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

That is the theory by the Life School of Thought and is never stated anywhere else again. I haven't read all of the second novel yet (only completed the first volume) but during the first volume that theory is never reinstated again. No other characters have mentioned this theory, and we know it is bogus because the Original Creator is the reason Beyonder Characteristics exist.

Brother, how can you call it a bogus theory when everything they've pointed out about the cosmology is accurate? This is why Beyonder Characteristics can't be destroyed. The Astral World and the Original Creator are essentially the same in nature. I’d recommend checking out the previous messages in this thread for more context.

My bad. I found the chapter that the scan was from chapter 30, and in my tipsy state, I thought it was Aurore the one talking. However, your argument doesn't hold because no non-beyonders or ritualists know about the Astral World.

I'm sure some people are aware, but even if they weren't that doesn’t change my argument either way. Many are still ignorant of the workings of the astral world / cosmos.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

I have looked through this page two times now but still have not seen anything of the sorts. Everyone talked about the Astral World and ASG's death but not Amon. Can you link the comment if you have.

Another anti-feat I realized while going through the novel to find scans is Klein himself saying he would die in a supernova.

That isn't an anti-feat because we are not saying Klein's durability is 1-A or any sequence 0's durability is on that level. Read on page 3 of this thread such as this and comments around it:

i agree with authorities being 1-A. However this will make only OC to have 1-A existence. the tiering for true gods would go like "Low 1-C, 1-A with Authority". Same principle should apply for GOO and Pillars. there might be an argument for pillars having 1-a existence via being personas of OC but given the fact that GA and CW died but not their authorities i don't think we can equate them with authorities exactly, they leave mental imprint on characteristics the same way high-end beyonders do, just to way bigger degree. so i assume GOO and Pillars still 1-A via Authority like true gods but just with a broader application for what goes under their 'jurisdiction'

Igtg now, but I’ll address the rest and anything following when I get home.

 

[Bahaha]

Brother, how can you call it a bogus theory when everything they've pointed out about the cosmology is accurate? This is why Beyonder Characteristics can't be destroyed. The Astral World and the Original Creator are essentially the same in nature. I’d recommend checking out the previous messages in this thread for more context.

How can Astral World and OC be the same if OC needs to absorb other Beyonder Characters to revive, and if the Life School of Thought's theory is true, then he is already all the Beyonder Characteristics he needs to absorb? This would also mean the OC is alive which is false because well we know he isn't alive.

That isn't an anti-feat because we are not saying Klein's durability is 1-A or any sequence 0's durability is on that level. Read on page 3 of this thread such as this and comments around it:

If you're trying to invalidate the anti-feats by saying a being that is tier 1-A can be harmed by non tier 1-A things then that is one weird hill to die on. Tier 1-As don't have non tier 1 durability.. They are supposed to be beings that see all things below them as fiction/absolutely insignificant..

 

[Solid0of0]

We are given information by both the Unshadowed Crucifix and Sasris about the death of ASG. They both tell us that the group of angels was able to murder ASG, the second scene Klein sees from the Unshadowed Crucifix is the moment ASG is attacked by the angels and murdered. The True God's blood on the Unshadowed Crucifix was from that exact moment of ASG's death. Even when ASG wanted to kill himself, the angels having the capability to enact that murder and transverse the gap between tier 7 and tier 1-A is ridiculous.


Did you even read the scan you sent?
Aurora tells Lumian "As for the astral world, it originally referred to the world of gods, but now, the
entire cosmos needs to be included in that definition." IT LITERALLY TELLS US THAT THE ASTRAL WORLD DID NOT ORIGINALLY INCLUDE THE COSMOS. The quote "originally referred to the world of gods" reinforces my argument that the Astral World is originally the location of the divine kingdoms, aka the barrier. Your logic of the Astral World encompassing the cosmos is refuted by your very scans.
By the way, Aurora is a low-level sequence character who knows NOTHING about the situation with True Gods. You can't use her for the fundamental cosmology of the verse.
Another important detail to note is that this is from LOTM 2(COI), which is fundamentally different and dramatically changed from LOTM due to the influence of the Cosmos on the planet after the weakening of the barrier (the novel is situated around the eve of the apocalypse) to the point there can be entities like Termiborous (Outer God angel) walking the Earth. The author has stated he increased the influence of the Outer Gods in the story for Book 3 and the Apocalypse.

Okay, lets break this down part by part:

1. Fors stated that. She says that because humans believed that it was the world of the gods, but this now the whole cosmos needs to be included, because now outer gods can exert influence on the world.

2. "Astral World is originally the location of the divine kingdoms, aka the barrier." Divine kingdoms ≠ the barrier. It is also not the orginal location of divine kingdoms as in the 4th epoch they existed in the material plane, they do not "originally exist". Divine kingdom can be "formed" at sequence 1 as an "embryonic divine kingdom," becoming complete as one advances to sequence 0.

3. Lotm 2 and Lotm 1 are not "fundamentally different" only difference is the state of the world barrier, it is now "weaker" as the original creators will weakens. the outer gods can now bestow boons, because of barriers state.

 

[Bahaha]

Okay, lets break this down part by part:

1. Fors stated that. She says that because humans believed that it was the world of the gods, but this now the whole cosmos needs to be included, because now outer gods can exert influence on the world.

No normal human can know these concepts without their spirituality erasing it or them going completely mad. You agree with me that the increased influence of the outer gods on the planet is the catalyst for the cosmos to be included in the concept of the Astral World.

2. "Astral World is originally the location of the divine kingdoms, aka the barrier." Divine kingdoms ≠ the barrier. It is also not the orginal location of divine kingdoms as in the 4th epoch they existed in the material plane, they do not "originally exist". Divine kingdom can be "formed" at sequence 1 as an "embryonic divine kingdom," becoming complete as one advances to sequence 0.

Read it again, I never stated that the divine kingdoms are the barrier, I said the "location" of the divine kingdoms is the barrier. The sentence says "originally" because there is a change between the new Astral World concept and the old Astral World concept. Yes, I know the definition and formation of a divine kingdom. You're misinterpreting my arguments.

3. Lotm 2 and Lotm 1 are not "fundamentally different" only difference is the state of the world barrier, it is now "weaker" as the original creators will weakens. the outer gods can now bestow boons, because of barriers state.

There is a fundamental difference in the setting and content of the books.
The first book NEVER mentioned anything about boons or had OD angels inside the barrier, but the second book does incorporate these new concepts in the power system and lore.
In the first book, the influence of the OD was limited and they could only indirectly influence the setting. In the second book, the outer deities can directly influence the setting inside the barrier.
Edit: Cuttlefish himself says he picked the name "Circle of Inevitability" to showcase the increased influence of Outer Deities to the story because it is the name of an Outer Deity.

 

[LOTM_Historian]

Alright, I'm on a quick break, so I'll take a moment to address your concerns. Although I've already covered these points earlier, I'll go over them again for clarity.

How can Astral World and OC be the same if OC needs to absorb other Beyonder Characters to revive, and if the Life School of Thought's theory is true, then he is already all the Beyonder Characteristics he needs to absorb? This would also mean the OC is alive which is false because well we know he isn't alive.

The Astral World represents the state in which the Original Creator no longer exists. We describe the Astral World and the Original Creator as ontologically the same because the Creator is said to be the embodiment of all contradictory concepts (or authorities), while the Astral World is described as the domain that holds all of these authorities. However, these authorities remain separate and have not yet fused into one.

If you're trying to invalidate the anti-feats by saying a being that is tier 1-A can be harmed by non tier 1-A things then that is one weird hill to die on. Tier 1-As don't have non tier 1 durability.. They are supposed to be beings that see all things below them as fiction/absolutely insignificant..

I will paste my previous comment on this here:

Cmiiw, is it safe to say Rose Redemption can harm half-pillar with combination of 3 KoA with uniqeiness + 3 KoA (each having two seq 1) and one True God? enough bridge the gap between L1-C with 1-A?

Like the others have pointed out above your message, we don't have the exact details of how the battle unfolded or how Ancient Sun God died. However, even if he was physically affected by L1-C's, it would still be acceptable. Since if we reference the tiering system:

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

Authorities in Lord of the Mysteries is the "metaphysical potential rotated from a higher reality" that gives LOTM characters 1-A AP and Hax. Beyonder powers originate from external objects, specifically Beyonder Characteristics and Uniquenesses, which are projections from the Astral World. Additionally, as mentioned earlier in this thread, authorities continue to exist even if their holder dies. A god's physical body is not tied to their authority; you can kill a god, but the authority remains intact regardless.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are numerous examples of similar characters, such as those from Warhammer, who possess planet-level durability but exhibit outerversal attack potency. Likewise, characters from The Unwritten are classified as high outerversal, yet have durability comparable to that of an ordinary human. A quick glance through the 1-A tier will reveal many such instances.

Mag'ladroth the Void Dragon

The Void Dragon, also known by its true name Mag'ladroth is one of the few remaining C'tan, one of the Necron's Star Gods, in the Milky Way Galaxy. It is the most powerful of the known C'tan, a force of oblivion, wanton destruction and devastation. It is widely accepted that the Dragon of Mars...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The Unwritten

The Unwritten is a Meta-fictional Fantasy Comicbook series by Mike Carey published by Vertigo, consisting of 11 collected volumes and 71 total issues. The story follows Tom Taylor as he travels the world in an attempt to understand himself and the stories he studies. Most characters in The...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[LOTM_Historian]

We are given information by both the Unshadowed Crucifix and Sasris about the death of ASG. They both tell us that the group of angels was able to murder ASG, the second scene Klein sees from the Unshadowed Crucifix is the moment ASG is attacked by the angels and murdered. The True God's blood on the Unshadowed Crucifix was from that exact moment of ASG's death. Even when ASG wanted to kill himself, the angels having the capability to enact that murder and transverse the gap between tier 7 and tier 1-A is ridiculous.

This is not necessary to clarify for the scaling, but I’ll point out that your scans explicitly state: “creating an opportunity for Amanises and the others…”

Additionally, the Ancient Sun God was defeated not only by the King of Angels but by multiple Gods.

No normal human can know these concepts without their spirituality erasing it or them going completely mad. You agree with me that the increased influence of the outer gods on the planet is the catalyst for the cosmos to be included in the concept of the Astral World.

I’m not sure why you’re calling it the catalyst. Beyonder powers have always been included, and it wouldn’t make sense for them not to be, otherwise, no one outside of Earth would be beyonder. Beyonder have existed throughout the universe since its creation. Additionally, I’m unclear on how the idea that normal humans can’t understand these concepts is related to this issue.

because there is a change between the new Astral World concept and the old Astral World concept.

There hasn't? The Astral World and the wider Astral World refer to the same place, the only difference being that the Outer Gods outside the barrier can't enter, while those inside are able to go outside.

There is a fundamental difference in the setting and content of the books.
The first book NEVER mentioned anything about boons or had OD angels inside the barrier, but the second book does incorporate these new concepts in the power system and lore.
In the first book, the influence of the OD was limited and they could only indirectly influence the setting. In the second book, the outer deities can directly influence the setting inside the barrier.
Edit: Cuttlefish himself says he picked the name "Circle of Inevitability" to showcase the increased influence of Outer Deities to the story because it is the name of an Outer Deity.

Im not sure what your point is in this.

If you have any other questions or need more explanation, I'm available to help clarify things. Also, my discord username is "smartpunch" if you want to discuss it on voice chat.

 

[Super_Nova]

@Bahaha

I will be honest—you have not made a single comment yet that has served value in this thread because you are simply regurgitating the same points that have been readdressed by us multiple times.

1. Stop mentioning the ASG stuff. As we have made already clear, not only do we not know how ASG died, but even if he did die in the hands of the angels, it wouldn’t change anything as we have already made clear that the physical bodies of the characters are not the Authorities themselves.

2. To add to that last part, you seem to refer to the fact that Klein’s S0 could die to a star as an anti-feat, but yet again, I will state the same thing: Klein is not the Authority. He (the non-1-A part) can die, the Authority (the 1-A part) cannot. So please show me a scan where it directly says that the Authority—or heck, just a Beyonder characteristic in general—can be destroyed through physical means such as a “supernova”.

3. Now unto the Fors part: Have you not considered that when she talks about “originally”, she is referring to the understanding of your average mysticism layman who can only have very limited knowledge on the Astral World as the “world of the gods”, while her powers of a Sequence 2 Planeswalker directly use the Astral World as a means to navigate the cosmos itself (something, mind you, that was stated in Book 1 during Kleins and Amons fight) allowing her to have very obviously advanced knowledge on the matter?

 

[Attendent_of_Mysteries]

We are given information by both the Unshadowed Crucifix and Sasris about the death of ASG. They both tell us that the group of angels was able to murder ASG, the second scene Klein sees from the Unshadowed Crucifix is the moment ASG is attacked by the angels and murdered. The True God's blood on the Unshadowed Crucifix was from that exact moment of ASG's death. Even when ASG wanted to kill himself, the angels having the capability to enact that murder and transverse the gap between tier 7 and tier 1-A is ridiculous.

I think you should read your own link properly first how do you not understand the sasrir creating opportunity for evernight and others part but you make it seem like the three angels bitchslapped ASG without even looking at the context of the fight.

Did you even read the scan you sent?

Did you read the scan i sent you ? you said Astral world is a barrier only on earth when it's clearly mentioned the astral world and the barrier is different and the astral world is present everywhere.

Another important detail to note is that this is from LOTM 2(COI), which is fundamentally different and dramatically changed from LOTM due to the influence of the Cosmos on the planet after the weakening of the barrier (the novel is situated around the eve of the apocalypse) to the point there can be entities like Termiborous (Outer God angel) walking the Earth. The author has stated he increased the influence of the Outer Gods in the story for Book 3 and the Apocalypse.

I don't know what exactly this is supposed to prove ?

That is the theory by the Life School of Thought and is never stated anywhere else again. I haven't read all of the second novel yet (only completed the first volume) but during the first volume that theory is never reinstated again. No other characters have mentioned this theory, and we know it is bogus because the Original Creator is the reason Beyonder Characteristics exist.

if it doesn't contradict with the already given info then it should be taken as true. Also OC being the Reason for beyonder characteristics doesn't disprove or contradict it since even the astral world itself is part of OC.

Read it again, I never stated that the divine kingdoms are the barrier, I said the "location" of the divine kingdoms is the barrier. The sentence says "originally" because there is a change between the new Astral World concept and the old Astral World concept. Yes, I know the definition and formation of a divine kingdom. You're misinterpreting my arguments.

Again you're telling others to read again while you're not doing it yourself check my reply where I've linked klein going into Astral world to meet the goddess. Her Divine Kingdom is clearly in the Astral world.

There is a fundamental difference in the setting and content of the books.
The first book NEVER mentioned anything about boons or had OD angels inside the barrier, but the second book does incorporate these new concepts in the power system and lore

Which again doesn't contradict with what was said before so what is exactly your point ?

Read all the replies we've sent and address that first. Because you seem to not even reply when you're proven wrong and go on to spew more misinformation.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

TLDR: Klein, Amon and co have 1-A smurf via authority. But not the AP or the Durability itself.

 

[Lycenum_lycopersicum]

Hm. It seems that the only actually 1-A thing is the Astral World itself and the feat of shaking it, then (Provided everything's still in place, that is. I haven't checked the recent back-and-forth yet). Having an Authority seems like it would he moreso smurfy Conceptual Manipulation, or probably not even that, since the Authorities themselves aren't being affected in any way, and are moreso just "actuated" (As in, the characters have power over everything that springs from these essences, but not over the essences themselves)

It does seem so. Gods kind of have the 1A objects like authorities as their hax, but do not have the corresponding AP(which most of the time guarantees tiering). In that case, we can make a distinction for True Gods being L1A, while entities with multiple authorities(Great Old Ones and Pillars) can go to 1A via being able to shake the Astral World itself. That tiering is fine with you?

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

No normal human can know these concepts without their spirituality erasing it or them going completely mad. You agree with me that the increased influence of the outer gods on the planet is the catalyst for the cosmos to be included in the concept of the Astral World.

Read it again, I never stated that the divine kingdoms are the barrier, I said the "location" of the divine kingdoms is the barrier. The sentence says "originally" because there is a change between the new Astral World concept and the old Astral World concept. Yes, I know the definition and formation of a divine kingdom. You're misinterpreting my arguments.

There is a fundamental difference in the setting and content of the books.
The first book NEVER mentioned anything about boons or had OD angels inside the barrier, but the second book does incorporate these new concepts in the power system and lore.
In the first book, the influence of the OD was limited and they could only indirectly influence the setting. In the second book, the outer deities can directly influence the setting inside the barrier.
Edit: Cuttlefish himself says he picked the name "Circle of Inevitability" to showcase the increased influence of Outer Deities to the story because it is the name of an Outer Deity.

Most of these things are a non-issue, I dont particuarly see how they would affect the scaling whatsoever.

On another note, i'm honestly not seeing the issue in them just being flat 1-A if they could control some outerversal thing, but I guess thats up to the mods

 

[Robo432343]

i agree but no one gets 1-A ap