Upgrade root/source/origin to Concept type 1 - Maou gakuin

[Fixxed]

This thread created for upgrade root from Maou gakuin to concept type 1, and yes upgrade every single character that can effect root for have concept manipulation type 1

1. Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

So you can have type 1 just by independent from object it concept govern

What is root???

Root is concept of existance that govern and deeper than body, mind, and soul and everything in the world only have 1 root:

Source:
The fundamental concept of existence that all living things hold within them. An excellent magician can be reincarnated with the memories of their life kept in their source, and even if the physical body perishes, as long as the source is intact, they can be revived.
LN KEYWORD

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the spirit, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.
LN VOLUME 1 CHAPTER 6
From manga

「残念だが、どんな魔法を使っても同一人物は生み出せない。俺たちの根源はこの世にただ一つしかない」
Translate:
"I'm sorry, but no amount of magic can create the same person. There is only one root for us in this world."

Root exist deeper than what it govern and if you destroy the body, mind, and soul it can't effect the root. That mean root is the concept that complete unbound by what it govern or independent from what it govern. I think this should have concept type 1

 

[Fixxed]

Bump

 

[Ian2296]

Neutral leaning to agree. If it's also stated that it's also unbound by mind, then I'll agree (cus the feats I see only supports that it's unbound by soul and body)

 

[Orioreeem]

Waiting for further input. When did you become fan of this series?

 

[Fixxed]

Neutral leaning to agree. If it's also stated that it's also unbound by mind, then I'll agree (cus the feats I see only supports that it's unbound by soul and body)

Yea, i think the author use soul for describe the mind and spirit for supernatural thing

Soul and Spirit is different
Soul can be mental ability of living thing like thinking, memory.....
Spirit is supernatural being or personality of someone

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Agree with the OP and you can refer the Eugo La Raviaz time manipulation. Pretty sure he destroys Everything and Anos came back with just roots. And root was unaffected even the Eugo La Raviaz governs concept of time.

 

[Fixxed]

Agree with the OP and you can refer the Eugo La Raviaz time manipulation. Pretty sure he destroys Everything and Anos came back with just roots. And root was unaffected even the Eugo La Raviaz governs concept of time.

I think eugo just erase arnos's body

 

[Vietthai96]

that not how Type 1 work, Type 1 require the concept to be independent from universal reality, not just independent from singular person or a group, it govern, sources is type 2 because it is still dependent on the reality it in

 

[Dereck03]

Tch. Neutral leaning toward disagree, I can't say that this CRT is very well elaborated, as it lacks much more crucial information and scans that could prove that the source is a Type 1 concept. IMO, this CRT is a result of a rush due to an idea that came up suddenly without much time of elaboration and dedication.

that not how Type 1 work, Type 1 require the concept to be independent from universal reality, not just independent from singular person or a group, it govern, sources is type 2 because it is still dependent on the reality it in

"These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts"

In this case the source is the concept of existence that represents the past, present and future of all things existing in verse, while the body, mind and soul that could be said to be the basic fundamental doesn't mean anything to the source and its complete destruction doesn't affect anything to the source (concept), this can continue creating a body, soul and mind without problems. A possible example would be the orders and the order of the order, no matter if all other orders are destroyed, they will not affect the order of the order.

Edit. Now I completely disagree because of Null's argument below.

 

[imZer0Null]

I disagree.

When a person dies by almost any means, e.g. by being decapitated or by having their physical body destroyed, their source and consciousness will remain for a short while (presumably at least 3 sec, tho we've seen more powerful characters remain as only a source for a longer time), before "ascending to heaven and dying".
If they cannot resurrect or reincarnate themselves via magic, it is said to be equivalent to source destruction. This is because their source changes form, changes power, and loses memory, essentially becoming a different source, before it governs the person's existence when they are naturally reborn.
In short, the source is slightly independent from the object it governs, that being a person's existence, but when a person dies, the source changes form and governs the naturally reborn person's existence, meaning it basically changed which object it governs.
Therefore, it is not completely independent from the object it governs and does not qualify as a type 1 concept.

その力を奪われ、＜蘇生インガル＞も＜転生シリカ＞も使えなくなった頃、首に残っていた根源が解放される。

それは、切り離された体に残った僅かな意識、希薄な根源と再び巡り会い、そうして、そのまま根源は天に昇って絶えるのだろう。

蘇ることも、生まれ変わることもできなければ、死は滅びに等しい。
それが死に絶えるということだ。

それでも、以前にアルカナが言っていた。
根源は、輪廻する。

形を変え、力を変え、記憶を失って。

なおも、父はここにいた。
俺のそばに、ずっといたのだ。

When his power was taken away, and he could no longer use [Ingal] or [Silica], the source that remained in his neck was released.

That is, the little consciousness that remains in the decapitated body will re-encounter the weak source, and then the source will ascend to heaven and die.

If it cannot be resurrected or reincarnated, death is equivalent to destruction.
That's what it means to die out.

Still, as Arcana had said before.
The source is in an endless cycle of death and rebirth.

Changing form, changing power, losing memory.

My father was still here.
He was here with me all along.

- WN Chapter 373

 

[Fixxed]

I disagree.

When a person dies by almost any means, e.g. by being decapitated or by having their physical body destroyed, their source and consciousness will remain for a short while (presumably at least 3 sec, tho we've seen more powerful characters remain as only a source for a longer time), before "ascending to heaven and dying".
If they cannot resurrect or reincarnate themselves via magic, it is said to be equivalent to source destruction. This is because their source changes form, changes power, and loses memory, essentially becoming a different source, before it governs the person's existence when they are naturally reborn.
In short, the source is slightly independent from the object it governs, that being a person's existence, but when a person dies, the source changes form and governs the naturally reborn person's existence, meaning it basically changed which object it governs.
Therefore, it is not completely independent from the object it governs and does not qualify as a type 1 concept.

First
You you missed an important sentence:

ツェイロンの血族に首を奪われた者は、滅びるのではなく、死ぬということだろう。
It would mean that those whose heads were taken by the bloodline of Zealon would not perish, but die.

The context of the scan is that they are talking about graham killing Celis

if the descendants of zealion take their heads, they will die. what is taken is also their power is not just ordinary killing


Life is cycle, before reaincarnated root will be wandering in the void
The meaning of root die and change form is root just follow order of life and death not really death or disappear, if you die your root will ascend to heaven and "die" then reincarnate again or called "change shape". But your root not disappear or be effect by dead of your body, root after lost the body, mind, and soul will wandering in void if not reincarnated by order

二千年前に転生した魔族は多いはずだ。まだ転生できていない根源が、虚空を彷徨うことにもなりかねない。
There must be many demons that were reincarnated two thousand years ago. The roots that have not yet been reincarnated could be wandering in the void.

「世界には様々な秩序がある。生命は生誕し、深化していき、終焉を迎え、そして転変する。これらは樹理四神の秩序によって成り立つ輪廻である。では、創造神。貴方に問おう。破壊の秩序の反対はなんだ？」
There are many orders in the world. Life is born, it deepens, it comes to an end, and then it changes. These are samsara, the cycle of life, which is based on the order of the four gods. So, Creator God. I ask you. What is the opposite of the order of destruction?
WN CHAPTER 423

「生命は輪廻するもの。生誕を得た根源は、深化していく。それはすなわち、成長を意味する。深化の果てには終焉がある。終わりを迎えた根源は、されど別の形へと転変するのだ。そして、また新たに生誕を得るだろう」

　ディルフレッドは空を見上げ、風に舞う、青き火露ほろの葉を見つめる。

「永久とこしえに繰り返すのだ、人は。形を変え、姿を変え、心を変え、それを消失と人々は呼ぶが、儚さもまた人の生。されど、消失を避けようと暴威を振るえば、真の終わりが待ち受ける」
"Life is a cycle. "Life is reincarnation, and the source of birth is deepening. This means growth. At the end of deepening, there is an end. A root that has reached its end is transformed into another form. And it will be born anew.
　Dilfred looked up at the sky and gazed at the blue fire dewdrop leaves dancing in the wind.

Dilfred looked up at the sky and gazed at the blue dewdrop leaves dancing in the wind, "Eternity repeats itself, man. We change our shape, our form, our mind, they call it disappearance, but transience is also our life. But the true end awaits us if we act violently to avoid the disappearance."
WN CHAPTER 424

Root also don't change when you reincarnated only your existance or personality cange, it mean the dead and the change of your existance is means nothing to the root.
Root also accomodate every single life and reincarnated of you, "Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity" , so if your root disappear is immposible even with order to reincarnated you

「そうは思えぬ。転生すれば、人となりは変わる。同じ性格と言うこともないだろう。だが、その根幹にあるものだけは変わらぬものだ。お前は勇者カノンとは似ても似つかぬ。その性根が、醜く歪んでいるのだからな」
I don't think so. When you are reincarnated, your personality changes. You may not even have the same personality. However, only what is at the root of the person will remain the same. You are nothing like the hero Kanon. You are not like the hero Kanon, because your nature is ugly and twisted.

「理解したか？　根源を傷つけられるのは死を超えるほどの苦痛だ。今世にて考え得るありとあらゆる痛みを凝縮しようと、決してそれに届くことはない。来世の死も、その次の死も、輪廻転生により繰り返される無限に等しき死が、その場で摘み取られるのだからな」
Do you understand? To be wounded at the root is a pain beyond death. Even if you condense every conceivable pain in this life, you will never reach it. The death of the next life, and the one after that, will be plucked on the spot by the infinite number of deaths repeated by reincarnation.
WN CHAPTER 97

“I don’t think so. Your personality changes if you reincarnate because you won’t be the same person, however, your core remains the same. You are not like Kanon. Your core has become ugly and twisted.” (Arnos)
.
.
.
“I cannot touch your origin. Even with magic, it’s very difficult to interfere with an origin, however, <Bebuzud> can directly touch an origin.” (Arnos)

I scratched the white ball with my fingertip.

“Agaaa….aaah… Agaaakyaaaaa……. Gugyaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!” (Diego)

An intense and violent death scream rang out.

“Do you get it now? A pain that surpasses death itself is felt when your origin is hurt. Try to condense every possible pain in this world and it wouldn’t be enough to match this pain. Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity. All your future reincarnations and deaths are packed into this one spot.” (Arnos)
LN CHAPTER 92

From what I have given above, it can be concluded that root is completely independent of body, mind, and soul. Root don't cange when reincarnated only your existance

 

[Vietthai96]

Again, Independent from mind, body or soul doesn't mean type 1, because mind, body and soul are local "reality" it have extreme evidences. You need to prove that the sources also independent from the entire verse reality as a whole. Stop nitpicking some certain word on the hax page

 

[Fixxed]

Tch. Neutral leaning toward disagree, I can't say that this CRT is very well elaborated, as it lacks much more crucial information and scans that could prove that the source is a Type 1 concept. IMO, this CRT is a result of a rush due to an idea that came up suddenly

I just added some information

First
You you missed an important sentence:


The context of the scan is that they are talking about graham killing Celis

if the descendants of zealion take their heads, they will die. what is taken is also their power is not just ordinary killing


Life is cycle, before reaincarnated root will be wandering in the void
The meaning of root die and change form is root just follow order of life and death not really death or disappear, if you die your root will ascend to heaven and "die" then reincarnate again or called "change shape". But your root not disappear or be effect by dead of your body, root after lost the body, mind, and soul will wandering in void if not reincarnated by order


Root also don't change when you reincarnated only your existance or personality cange, it mean the dead and the change of your existance is means nothing to the root.
Root also accomodate every single life and reincarnated of you, "Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity" , so if your root disappear is immposible even with order to reincarnated you



From what I have given above, it can be concluded that root is completely independent of body, mind, and soul. Root don't cange when reincarnated only your existance

 

[Fixxed]

Again, Independent from mind, body or soul doesn't mean type 1, because mind, body and soul are local "reality" it have extreme evidences. You need to prove that the sources also independent from the entire verse reality as a whole. Stop nitpicking some certain word on the hax page

So lets take an example

If there are concept of time, and the concept is complete unbound by the time it won't be type 1 concept???

And you don't need to be independent from entire reality of the verse. If is has to be, then maou gakuin will not get concept manipulation type 1

 

[Vietthai96]

So lets take an example

If there are concept of time, and the concept is complete unbound by the time it won't be type 1 concept???

And you don't need to be independent from entire reality of the verse. If is has to be, then maou gakuin will not get concept manipulation type 1

1. If it still dependent on a reality then it is not type 1. For example, concept A independent from A, A get nuked or whatever....the concept A still exist independently, but there is still reality B, and even though concept A independent from A, it still dependent on B, thus concept A is not type 1.

2. Then the concept should be downgrade

 

[Fixxed]

1. If it still dependent on a reality then it is not type 1. For example, concept A independent from A, A get nuked or whatever....the concept A still exist independently, but there is still reality B, and even though concept A independent from A, it still dependent on B, thus concept A is not type 1.

2. Then the concept should be downgrade

1. Bruh i don't know where you got the false understanding. If concept is independent from what it govern then is should be type 1

2. Then you can make the downgrade CRT. Btw CM 1 maou gakuin is has been approved by many vsb experts Here

 

[Vietthai96]

1. Bruh i don't know where you got the false understanding. If concept is independent from what it govern then is should be type 1

2. Then you can make the downgrade CRT. Btw CM 1 maou gakuin is has been approved by many vsb experts Here

1. It is actually your false understanding, type 3 existed for a reason. Independent from local reality is not type 1 by all mean, you actually nitpicking the word: indepedent
2. I read the thread way before, i just response to your comment

 

[Fixxed]

..the concept A still exist independently, but there is still reality B, and even though concept A independent from A, it still dependent on B, thus concept A is not type 1.

Hey, what is the correlation of root with your explanation, I don't think it means you are just wasting sentences

Again, Independent from mind, body or soul doesn't mean type 1, because mind, body and soul are local "reality" it have extreme evidences

I don't know what you mean about local "reality". In here We have accepted that root is a type 2 concept. Therefore, root is also independent of the object being governed. then it will qualify as concept type 1. Don't change the facts with your misunderstanding here

 

[Fixxed]

1. It is actually your false understanding, type 3 existed for a reason. Independent from local reality is not type 1 by all mean, you actually nitpicking the word: indepedent
2. I read the thread way before, i just response to your comment

1. Can you give an example or explanation of your statement? I can give example like god of war that it concept don't independent from entire verse. By your logic there will be a lot verse will downgrade

2. You read and you still missunderstand about concept type 1?

 

[AkumaNoHissatsu]

For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

 

[imZer0Null]

First
You you missed an important sentence:

The context of the scan is that they are talking about Graham killing Celis.

I did not miss anything. This point is just completely irrelevant.

If a member of the Zeylon clan takes their heads, they will die. What is taken is also their power is not just ordinary killing.

This is partially incorrect.
If a member of the Zeylon clan takes a person's head, they do indeed duplicate the decapitated person's power, but nothing implies that when the decapitated person dies their source is also directly affected, so except for the decapitation and power duplication, it should be considered "ordinary death".

Life is cycle, before reincarnated root will be wandering in the void.

This is meant metaphorically.
The source "wanders in the void" simply because the person's reincarnation has yet to occur, i.e. it will occur in the future.

The meaning of root die and change form is root just follow order of life and death not really death or disappear, if you die your root will ascend to heaven and "die" then reincarnate again or called "change shape".

Yes, I never said the source actually dies. It changes form, as both my scans and your scans repeatedly state, therefore it is no longer the exact same source, which is why the novel compares it to death.

But your root not disappear or be effect by death of your body, root after lost the body, mind, and soul will wandering in void if not reincarnated by order.

As explained above, it doesn't literally wander in a void.

Root also don't change when you reincarnated only your existence or personality change, it mean the dead and the change of your existence is means nothing to the root.

The source does change, just not to an extreme extent, as both my scans and your scans repeatedly state.

Root also accommodate every single life and reincarnated of you, "Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity", so if your root disappear is impossible even with order to reincarnated you.

This supports my argument.
The source is referred to as the "concept of existence", not the "concept of a person's present body, soul, & mind", and it governs a person's entire existence (including all incarnations), not just their present body, soul, & mind, which is why when you simply destroy a single incarnation of person, you aren't actually destroying the entire "object" the concept governs, therefore there is no evidence that the source is completely independent from the thing it governs, i.e. a person's entire existence, not just their present body, soul, & mind.
Your argument is almost similar to saying that because the "concept of chair" did not cease to exist when you destroyed a single wooden chair, it must be independent of the object it governs and therefore a type 1 concept, but the "concept of chair" does not govern a single wooden chair, and also does not govern only wooden chairs, just as the "concept of existence" does not govern only a person's present body, soul, & mind.

 

[Fixxed]

This is partially incorrect.
If a member of the Zeylon clan takes a person's head, they do indeed duplicate the decapitated person's power, but nothing implies that when the decapitated person dies their source is also directly affected, so except for the decapitation and power duplication, it should be considered "ordinary death".

it's just your interpretation. the scan says otherwise
why does the scan say "whould not perish, but die"??? That means the death when killed by Graham was different from ordinary death

This is meant metaphorically.
The source "wanders in the void" simply because the person's reincarnation has yet to occur, i.e. it will occur in the future.

So you have to prove that is metaphorically.
Yea the person has not yet reaincarnated so their root wandering is the void. My point here is root don't disappear when the person body get killed

Yes, I never said the source actually dies. It changes form, as both my scans and your scans repeatedly state, therefore it is no longer the exact same source, which is why the novel compares it to death

Not the root has changed, but the person

As explained above, it doesn't literally wander in a void.

So you have to prove it

The source does change, just not to an extreme extent, as both my scans and your scans repeatedly state

Your statement is contradiction with scan i give above. Or you want says the scan i give is false because is not same as your statement

I know. This supports my argument.
The source is referred to as the "concept of existence", not the "concept of the present body/soul/mind", and it governs a person's entire existence (including all incarnations), not just their present body/soul/mind, which is why when you simply destroy a single incarnation of person, you aren't actually destroying the entire "object" the concept governs, therefore there is no evidence that the source is completely independent from the thing it governs, i.e. a person's entire existence, not just their present body/soul/mind.
Your argument is almost similar to saying that because the "concept of chair" did not cease to exist when you destroyed a single wooden chair, it must be independent of the object it governs and therefore a type 1 concept, but the "concept of chair" does not govern a single wooden chair, and also does not exclusively govern wooden chairs, just as the "concept of existence" does not govern only a person's present body, soul, and mind.

I give above. If you destroy the root then you will destroy everything that the root govern. It is why the scan says "Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity" and this "All your future reincarnations and deaths are packed into this one spot."
Root accommodate your death even in future. All your future packed into one spot, and you says destroy root only destroy present body, mind, and soul???

And i think even if root just unbound present body, mind, and soul is enough to CM 1. There are many verses that don't explain that their concept is unbound to the past, present, future
Only explain just unbound from what they govern

And you mean that root is only independent in present and not independent in past and future???

 

[Vietthai96]

And i think even if root just unbound present body, mind, and soul is enough to CM 1. There are many verses that don't explain that their concept is unbound to the past, present, future
Only explain just unbound from what they govern

1. No, if it so easy, type 3 is not even exist, govern over a local, personal reality is not qualify for even type 2, the reason Source is type 2 because it is independent from local, personal reality, but it not type 1 because it is still dependant on a bigger reality
2. What i hate the most is whataboutism argument, that verse have this why we don't, etc......the only thing here you trying to cling upon is it independent from body, soul, mind which already fail flat on itself

 

[Planck69]

Honestly, Null's arguments make more sense to me. Disagree for his reasons.

 

[Dereck03]

this CRT is a result of a rush due to an idea that came up suddenly without much time of elaboration and dedication.

I think it would be better to close this thread, I have the impression that the OP will start going in circles and as a knowledgeable member of the verse I can agree that the OP is wrong. It angers me as it would be a massive improvement for the verse (especially Anos and Graham), but well

 

[imZer0Null]

It's just your interpretation. The scan says otherwise.
Why does the scan say "would not perish, but die"??? That means the death when killed by Graham was different from ordinary death.

The scan does not say otherwise.

ツェイロンの血族に首を奪われた者は、滅びるのではなく、死ぬということだろう。
It would mean that those whose heads were taken by the bloodline of Zaylon would not perish, but die.
[...]
...死は滅びに等しい。
....death is equivalent to destruction.

As you can see, the same word can be translated as both perish and destruction. Anos stated that those whose heads were taken by the bloodline of Zaylon would not perish (be destroyed), but die, which means ordinary death, since perish (滅び) obviously refers to source destruction in this instance.

So you have to prove that is metaphorically.
Yea the person has not yet reincarnated so their root wandering is the void. My point here is root don't disappear when the person body get killed.

No. You have to prove it is meant literally, since that is the only statement that says the source "wanders in the void".
Yeah, I already acknowledged that the source does not immediately disappear when a person is killed.

Not the root has changed, but the person.

Incorrect.

The source is in an endless cycle of death and rebirth.

Changing form, changing power, losing memory.

A source that has reached its end is transformed into another form. And it will be born anew.

Your statement is contradiction with scan I give above.

No, your scan from WN chapter 97 does not contradict this.

転生すれば、人となりは変わる。同じ性格と言うこともないだろう。だが、その根幹にあるものだけは変わらぬものだ。
When you reincarnate, you become a different person. You may not even have the same personality. However, what is at the core of the person remains the same.

The author used the word 根幹 (core) here, which is not the same as the word 根源 (source), so Anos did not state that a person's source remains the same, but that their fundamental nature remains the same.

If you destroy the root then you will destroy everything that the root govern. It is why the scan says "Its the death of your next life, and the next one and so on into eternity" and this "All your future reincarnations and deaths are packed into this one spot."
Root accommodate your death even in future. All your future packed into one spot, and you says destroy root only destroy present body, mind, and soul???

This feels like an accidental strawman fallacy.
I agree the source governs a person's entire existence over present, past and future, and that destroying the source would destroy the person's entire existence, but it is exactly because of this that I disagree with the source being a type 1 concept for the reasons you provided.
If it governs a person's entire existence, why should it suddenly be treated as an independent concept when only a small part of a person's entire existence, i.e. their present body, soul & mind, is destroyed..?
Again, that is like saying the "concept of chair" is an independent concept because it didn't cease to exist when you destroyed a single chair, despite there being many more chairs, which is simply incorrect.

And I think even if root just unbound present body, mind, and soul is enough to CM 1. There are many verses that don't explain that their concept is unbound to the past, present, future.
Only explain just unbound from what they govern.

Yes, for arguments sake, let's say the concept just has to be independent from the object it governs to qualify as a type 1 concept and nothing more.
Now using that logic, do you really think the source is a type 1 concept just because it is somewhat independent from a person's body, soul & mind, even though you basically just said that the "object" that the source governs is a person's entire existence across present, past and future?

And you mean that root is only independent in present and not independent in past and future???

No.

 

[Ian2296]

Root accommodate your death even in future. All your future packed into one spot, and you says destroy root only destroy present body, mind, and soul???

He's not saying that, he said that you have to prove that if you destroy all incarnation/versions of a person in the past present future and the Root will still be exist. Because, only killing the present self doesn't really qualifies for the destroying all the object it governs part.

Summary: the root govern all of the person's version (be it past, present, future), meanwhile your argument is only if the present version is destroyed (not all versions)

 

[Fixxed]

The scan does not say otherwise.

What??? The scan also doesn't say ordinary death

As you can see, the same word can be translated as both perish and destruction. Anos stated that those whose heads were taken by the bloodline of Zaylon would not perish (be destroyed), but die, which means ordinary death, since perish (滅び) obviously refers to source destruction in this instance.

Oke so the source is destroy when the body die???

No. You have to prove it is meant literally, since that is the only statement that says the source "wanders in the void".
Yeah, I already acknowledged that the source does not immediately disappear when a person is killed.

Wanders in the void is not my point btw, my point is root is not disappear. So you accept that the problem is clear

Incorrect.

No, i give the scan that my statement is correct

No, your scan from WN chapter 97 does not contradict this.

Changing form, changing power, losing memory and transform into another form is not for source but for person that govern by source. God of transformation change person by their root. Because of that the scan says root will be ascendent to heaven and die (this not disappear but die mean god of the end, anahem take them) and by their root they will be transformed into another form another person

And even if root is cange, it change because order of transformation god. Not because body get killed

The author used the word 根幹 (core) here, which is not the same as the word 根源 (source), so Anos did not state that a person's source remains the same, but that their fundamental nature remains the same.

You better read the scan's source i gave above. Core in the context is root. And is it the LN what about the WN

If it governs a person's entire existence, why should it suddenly be treated as an independent concept when only a small part of a person's entire existence, i.e. their present body, soul & mind, is destroyed..?

Oke, then give me scan the root only independent by present only

And if you look carefully in the scan, that whould be mean not the person exist in past, present, and future but the root. Your person only can have 1 life..birth, growth, death, and transformed. But your root is same

『しかし、全能者の剣を鞘に納めていなければ、その神剣の力により、引き抜いた者の根源は、現在、過去、未来に渡って消滅する』
However, if the Almighty's sword is not sheathed, the power of the divine sword will annihilate the roots of the person who pulls it out, present, past, and future.

Yes, for arguments sake, let's say the concept just has to be independent from the object it governs to qualify as a type 1 concept and nothing more.
Now using that logic, do you really think the source is a type 1 concept just because it is somewhat independent from a person's body, soul & mind, even though you basically just said that the "object" that the source governs is a person's entire

Yes, if the concept unbound the object what is govern is it type 1 concept. Even concept just existing before what is govern not says they unbound by the object is qualify for type 1 concept, just be independent from object

No.

So whats your point??? Root is independent from object in past present future, so????

So you think if
Body, mind, soul in past or present or future destroy root will be destroyed???

 

[Fixxed]

He's not saying that, he said that you have to prove that if you destroy all incarnation/versions of a person in the past present future and the Root will still be exist. Because, only killing the present self doesn't really qualifies for the destroying all the object it governs part.

So you think if you destroy body, mind, soul in past or present or future will destroy root which has even been said that root's initial nature is deeper than body, mind, and soul???

 

[Fixxed]

1. No, if it so easy, type 3 is not even exist, govern over a local, personal reality is not qualify for even type 2, the reason Source is type 2 because it is independent from local, personal reality, but it not type 1 because it is still dependant on a bigger reality

What??? Then maou gakuin whould have CM 1 because order in shalow layer is weaker than deeper layer. Order in shalow layer only participate on order in deeper layer

But the fact says it CM 1

2. What i hate the most is whataboutism argument, that verse have this why we don't, etc......the only thing here you trying to cling upon is it independent from body, soul, mind which already fail flat on itself

Not me is fail but you fail to understand about independent concept

 

[imZer0Null]

You better read the scan's source I gave above. Core in the context is root. And is it the LN what about the WN.

This is just completely incorrect.
The author consistently only uses the word 根源 to refer to the source throughout the entire novel. 根幹 does not refer to the source, even with the context from that chapter.
I won't even argue the above point with you further, because you are objectively incorrect.

It is also consistently stated multiple times in the novel that there is only one source for every person, so the idea that a future incarnation of a person would have the same exact source as a past incarnation of a person who didn't use reincarnation magic directly contradicts this fundamental truth.

As for the rest of your argument...
You're kinda just repeating circular arguments, strawmanning my arguments, and not providing the required evidence for your argument (you need to prove that the source will still exist even if a person's entire existence is destroyed, or in other words, that the source will still exist even if all incarnations of a person is completely destroyed), so I guess I'll just wait for further input from other people.

 

[RamadhanDayYet]

You two are just being burden of proof now, let's wait until we get a clear explanation about this.

 

[Fixxed]

This is just completely incorrect.
The author consistently only uses the word 根源 to refer to the source throughout the entire novel. 根幹 does not refer to the source, even with the context from that chapter.
I won't even argue the above point with you further, because you are objectively incorrect.

In LN core is root

To begin with, magic is created from the core of our being, our root if you will. If the core is altered or scared, the magic produced by it can go out of control.
“Well, whatever. Care to admit that I’m the founder? Even a little?”
LN CHAPTER 6

If core not the root so what it is??? Fundamental nature??? What is that??? So core more fundamental then root because you say root change but core not. if you understand well what arnos and diego are talking about. Then surely you will understand that what they are talking about is root

And you must give the scan about core being fundamental nature or explanation about core being different from root, as long as i read core is root. And about fundamental nature that doesn't exist

And like i say above, even if root change, is not because the body get killed

It is also consistently stated multiple times in the novel that there is only one source for every person, so the idea that a future incarnation of a person would have the same exact source as a past incarnation of a person who didn't use reincarnation magic directly contradicts this fundamental truth.

Why it is contradicts??? Every single person will have only one root, person change root don't, what makes you think root will change following their person??? Two separate person can even have the same exact root, so what make you think future reincarnation can't have the same exact root???

「＜分魂分体ディエルガ＞か、それに類する魔法だな。分けられた体と魂は、次第に本来あるべき形に戻っていく」

　こくり、とミーシャはうなずいた。

「わたしは魔法で分けられた疑似人格、本来は存在しない。一五歳の誕生日にはサーシャに戻るだけ。だから、あの子はわたしを魔法人形と呼んだ」
"It's Dierga, or some magic like it. The split body and soul will gradually return to their original form.

　I'm not sure what to do.

I am a pseudo-personality separated by magic, I don't really exist. I will only return to Sasha on my fifteenth birthday. That's why she called me a magic doll.

Root initial nature is deeper than body, mind, and soul, so even if you destroy it in the past or/and present or/and future it won't makes effect to the root

As for the rest of your argument...
You're kinda just repeating circular arguments, strawmanning my arguments, and not providing the required evidence for your argument (you need to prove that the source will still exist even if a person's entire existence is destroyed, or in other words, that the source will still exist even if all incarnations of a person is completely destroyed), so I guess I'll just wait for further input from other people.

I think is that you who ignored the scan i sent

 

[imZer0Null]

In LN core is root.

Incorrect.
LN also uses the word 根源 to refer to the source. Your scan most likely just translated 根源 as core instead of source/root, which is inaccurate.

Here's a better translation of the actual LN statement, since I'm 99% sure your scan is actually just an inaccurate translation of the WN:

そもそも魔力というのは、俺たちの体にある魔なる根源から生み出される。有り体に言えば、霊魂、魂魄となるが、根源は更にその深淵にある、俺たちを俺たちたらしめるものだ。

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the spirit, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.

Also, again, the other statement you use to try and support your argument uses a completely different word (根幹).

転生すれば、人となりは変わる。同じ性格と言うこともないだろう。だが、その根幹にあるものだけは変わらぬものだ。
When you reincarnate, you become a different person. You may not even have the same personality. However, what is at the core of the person remains the same.

Seriously, stop trying to debate the above point.
You are objectively incorrect.

Two separate person can even have the same exact root...

This is also completely incorrect.
I'm actually starting to question whether or not you've truly read the novel...

"Unfortunately, no type of magic can create the same exact person. There is only one source for all of us in this world."

- WN Chapter 28

 

[Fixxed]

Incorrect.

LN also uses the word 根源 to refer to the source. Your scan most likely just translated 根源 as core instead of source/root, which is inaccurate.

Here's a better translation of the actual LN statement, since I'm 99% sure your scan is actually just an inaccurate translation of the WN:

If core not the root so what it is??? Fundamental nature??? What is that??? So core more fundamental then root because you say root change but core not. if you understand well what arnos and diego are talking about. Then surely you will understand that what they are talking about is root

And you must give the scan about core being fundamental nature or explanation about core being different from root, as long as i read core is root. And about fundamental nature that doesn't exist

And like i say above, even if root change, is not because the body get killed

Even if root change it not because body get killed so your argument which says root change because death of body or ordinary death is incorrect, or root is slightly independent is incorrect

Seriously, stop trying to debate the above point.
You are objectively incorrect.

No i'm not incorrect, you must show me scan says about the core. You only judge from word by word without looking at the context of what is meant there

This is also completely incorrect.
I'm actually starting to question whether or not you've truly read the novel...

So you says my scan i give above is false??? You can't make same exact person in this world because their root only one, the context and meaning of that scan is not about one person with one root reincarnated and their root change because the person change, but different person with different root, no magic in the world can make it because the root of person is different

who didn't use reincarnation magic

And if you keep your argument, then your argument will contradict the scan you sent. "No type of magic". So how can reincarnation magic make the same exact person???

"Unfortunately, no type of magic can create the same exact person. There is only one source for all of us in this world."

- WN Chapter 28

Root initial nature is deeper than body, mind, and soul, so even if you destroy it in the past or/and present or/and future it won't makes effect to the root

And this..

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Disagree

 

[Fixxed]

Disagree

Reason

 

[imZer0Null]

No I'm not incorrect, you must show me scan says about the core. You only judge from word by word without looking at the context of what is meant there.

You are incorrect tho. I literally said earlier that even with context from that chapter, 根幹 does not refer to the source.
Here's a translation of that entire statement:

「そうは思えぬ。転生すれば、人となりは変わる。同じ性格と言うこともないだろう。だが、その根幹にあるものだけは変わらぬものだ。お前は勇者カノンとは似ても似つかぬ。その性根が、醜く歪んでいるのだからな」

"I don't think so. When you reincarnate, you become a different person. You may not even have the same personality. However, what is at the core of the person remains the same. You do not even slightly resemble the hero Kanon. Because that nature is ugly and distorted."

- WN Chapter 97

** 根幹 means foundation; root; basis; core; fundamentals.
性根 means nature; character.
For context, in this part of the chapter Diego claimed to be Kanon, but Anos disagreed with that because Kanon's fundamental nature was good, while Diego's was ugly and distorted. Anos stated that what is at the core (根幹) of a person remains the same, referring to their nature (性根) of for example being a good, neutral, or evil person, not that their "core" (根源, more accurately "source/root") remains the same.

So how can reincarnation magic make the same exact person?

No magic can create the same exact person, meaning there cannot be two completely identical sources. Anos even stated that the Zeshia and Diego source clones cannot be completely identical, and that there are small differences that not even his magic eyes can see.
Reincarnation magic doesn't create a completely identical source for the future incarnation, it just prevents the source from changing form, changing power, and losing memory when it reincarnates, so your argument is flawed.

I've been replying to your circular arguments because I don't want to seem like a complete prick, but you're genuinely making this unnecessarily difficult.

Anyways, can we please get more input from other people, especially staff members, in this thread, so that this can be finished? It's blatantly obvious that this debate will just keep going in circles...

 

[Fixxed]

性根 literally means nature/character.
For context, in this part of the chapter Diego claimed to be Kanon, but Anos disagreed with that because Kanon's fundamental nature was good, while Diego's was ugly and distorted. Anos stated that what is at the core (根幹) of a person remains the same, referring to their nature of for example being a good, neutral, or evil person, not that their "core" (根源, more accurately "source/root") remains the same.

If core not the root so what it is??? Fundamental nature??? What is that??? So core more fundamental then root because you say root change but core not. if you understand well what arnos and diego are talking about. Then surely you will understand that what they are talking about is root

And you must give the scan about core being fundamental nature or explanation about core being different from root, as long as i read core is root. And about fundamental nature that doesn't exist

And like i say above, even if root change, is not because the body get killed

Show me the proof that core or you says fundamental nature is exist, as long as i read there is not about fundamental nature

No magic can create the same exact person, meaning there cannot be two completely identical sources. Anos even stated that the Zeshia and Diego source clones cannot be completely identical, and that there are small differences that not even his magic eyes can see.
Reincarnation magic doesn't create a completely identical source for the future incarnation, it just prevents the source from changing form, changing power, and losing memory when it reincarnates, so your argument is flawed.

so the idea that a future incarnation of a person would have the same exact source as a past incarnation of a person who didn't use reincarnation magic

Is not my argument, is your argument. You clearly says "who didn't use reincarnation magic". So you forget what you says
.
.
.
.
Let's make is simple
1. The root is not destroy by dead of body
2. Root is not change, even if it change it change not because dead of the person. It change because order of transformation god
3. Root is deeper than the body, mind, and soul

So your argument that says root is slightly independent because death of the body is incorrect. So root still independent by body

In short, the source is slightly independent from the object it governs,

4. Is not the person that exist in past, present, and future simultaneously but the root

And if you look carefully in the scan, that whould be mean not the person exist in past, present, and future but the root. Your person only can have 1 life..birth, growth, death, and transformed. But your root is same

『しかし、全能者の剣を鞘に納めていなければ、その神剣の力により、引き抜いた者の根源は、現在、過去、未来に渡って消滅する』
However, if the Almighty's sword is not sheathed, the power of the divine sword will annihilate the roots of the person who pulls it out, present, past, and future.

So your argument which says root must independent in person past, present, and future is incorrect

If it governs a person's entire existence, why should it suddenly be treated as an independent concept when only a small part of a person's entire existence, i.e. their present body, soul & mind, is destroyed..?

5. Even if person is exist simutaneously in past, present, and future. Root initial nature is unbound by the person (body, mind, and soul).

The scan is not just says present existance. But the scan explain about what is root, root true nature/initial nature is deeper than body, mind, and soul. So what makes if body, mind, and soul in past or/and present or/and future get destroyed and root will detroyed??? Even you agree root is independent from existance in past or present or future

To begin with, magic power is created from the magical source in our bodies. To put it simply, it's the soul, the spirit, but the source exists even deeper in the abyss, and it's what makes us who we are.
LN VOLUME 1 CHAPTER 6

No.

So what makes root cannot be concept type 1

• Root unbound by body, mind, and soul or unbound by object it govern
• Root exist simutaneously in past, present, future. It's mean root govern person in past, present, future

 

[PrinceofPein]

Tbh everything I read in the OP and nothing suggest it is Type 1 concept
Edit: and yes I also agree with Null