Up eru to 0.

[Goodguysauron11]

Found a lotr wiki that's widely accepted as "correct" in the information it provides on everything in it, and it has eru as omnipotent and even provides the prophecy where morgoth wounds him. So with this I believe illuvatar should be upgraded to tier 0? Feats wise not that many but that's expected from Tolkien by now. Statements should be enough for this verse, especially when TOAA works off of statements mostly as well.

Which leads me to thinking morgoth should be upped to perhaps a 1? Wounding an omnipotent is no small feat no matter how much the feat counteracts the title.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

One cannot wound an omnipotent unless the omnipotent wills it. I doubt Eru wished for Melkor to wound him, and doing so certainly wouldn't up him to Tier 1.

Simply being called omnipotent is not enough. At the very least the being should never really be challenged. Eru was challenged by Melkor, which pretty much disqualifies him from being potentially omnipotent.

 

[Goodguysauron11]

It doesn't, especially not when eru created the prophecy. Eru, like almost every omnipotent. Does not act directly. He acts in the ways of his followers, like the Christian God does.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Again, that doesn't really matter. Eru was (or will be) harmed by Melkor before Melkor is eventually destroyed, for good. That puts his omnipotence into question, and stops us from making him a tier 0.

If we simply argue that every single fictional character who was called omnipotent was actually omnipotent and everything that happened to them is their will, we could say Spider-Man is omnipotent and has just been orchestrating everything in his life, all along. It's an unfalsifiable claim.

 

[Goodguysauron11]

Tis not, as Spider-Man has been called omnipotent in a joke comic. That is not canon. Silmarillion on the other hand. Is quite canon. Anyways, every source defines illuvatar as all powerful, meaning he should be given the tier of an all powerful being should he not?. You cannot confirm the presence or the one above all as being omnipotent and yet there you place them. They are based off statements just as much as illuvatar. Also why is he a 2. Morgoth is beyond the rest of the valar. He should be at least a 2-B just for that alone. He was created with parts of the other valar, giving him their strengths as well. And illuvatar surviving the blow morgoth struck him at the height of his power puts him beyond that.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

It doesn't matter if it's canon. Many characters in fiction have been called omnipotent, despite only controlling one universe. I sincerely doubt Tolkien was considering higher dimensions when writing his stories, so we cannot boost Eru beyond everyone in fiction who isn't a Tier 0 just because he was described as all powerful, which was then put into doubt with Melkor wounding him. 2-C is an incredibly wide category, as it covers 1-1000 universes. If Melkor is truly stronger than the others combined, then yes, he should be Multi-Universe level in his prime, but that is still 2-C.

 

[Goodguysauron11]

I seriously believe he is. As he was making a replica of God. Who to my knowledge is omnipotent.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Being made to be similar to God does not make the being omnipotent. Even if we believe these statements, Melkor is still able to wound him, which would not happen if Eru was omnipotent.

 

[Goodguysauron11]

As ive already said the prophecy was erus in the making therefore it was his plan to be wounded

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And it was Spider-Man's prophecy for Uncle Ben to die.

See how that doesn't work, here?

 

[Goodguysauron11]

That's not what I'm saying. Tolkien actually said illuvatar created said prophecies, not just making it up

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Can you show me where Tolkien specifically said Melkor wounding Illuvatar was part of his plan? The only mention I can recall is something along the lines of "Not even Melkor could stand in the way of Eru's plans".

 

[Antvasima]

Regardless, please read our Character Tiering and Omnipotence pages. As much as I like Lord of the Rings, we do not remotely rate characters as Tier 0 without completely exceeding all other tiers.

 

[Antvasima]

ALso, you are technically breaking the rules by attempting to unreasonably boost a franchise.