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Above Heaven and Below Earth, 0 Alone Surpasses 13

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BasedNecoScaler69 said:
I'm not saying this isn't possible at all, but this is not possible in the current setting because the human world is supposed to represent our current universe.
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Yes humans in WotL cannot see a 4D construct, that’s a non sequitur and not relevant to the argument.

BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Some appealing to reality is necessary, unless you have things like, calcs cannot be used because the concept of physics is completely different, cold is hot and hot is cold, etc.
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Yes but not absurdist appeals, the level at which you’re appealing rejects a large chunk of our Tier and Speed ratings.

BasedNecoScaler69 said:
This is not what im arguing. Appealing to reality is only a fallacy if in that specific case, it has been proven wrong. Otherwise, an appeal to reality is necessary. We have no scans or feats that show the space-time of the bleach universes to be different from our universe of relativity. We do have feats that prove the opposite though, like I presented.
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No one is saying the WotL is different than our irl universe you goon 😭
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
You're denying the space-time is relativistic in nature, thus it would have to be pretty different.
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Not my claim at all, stop strawmanning. Your claim is that Kubo is not allowed to visually depict a 4D construct for the audience. My claim is that you are incorrect as authors can depict abstract things or structures that we as humans couldn’t normally see in visual manners for the audience to grasp.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Not my claim at all, stop strawmanning. Your claim is that Kubo is not allowed to visually depict a 4D construct for the audience. My claim is that you are incorrect as authors can depict abstract things or structures that we as humans couldn’t normally see in visual manners for the audience to grasp.
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Just because he can, does not mean he always will. though i really don't see how that can be visually depicted in the way you think, given how space and time are intersected.
 
note the level of distortion is different
thumb_720_450_1859_Space-Time_Continuumdreamstime_xxl_65409828_1.jpg
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
you cant show a space time continuum shaking because it is not a physical object.
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Here

(35:00) They explain that Dialga and Palkia fighting is radiating waves in-between the dimensions, with a visual representation on the computer screen as well as a slight environmental effect

(35:30) Palkia's entrance into the world launched spatial waves that distorted the space-time. We know it to be so, because later on they explained how the dream dimension and the real world are merging by this effect (41:42)

(41:55) Straight up mentions the space-time and showing the disturbance on his computer screen

(55:05) Dialga roars, radiating waves that starts accelerating time (represented by the clock going faster)

(55:27) Then we are shown space-time being threatened by these waves on the computer screen, the same effect from 35:00.

So yeah, it 100% can be shown and talked about.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Just because he can, does not mean he always will. though i really don't see how that can be visually depicted, given how space and time are intersected.
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Cool so we agree there. We both agree that Kubo could show it but he doesn’t have to. That inherently implies a probability of either being true. Hence there being probabilities for both interpretations of 2-C and not 2-C being true. Thus, we are not applying a concrete 2-C rating, at best it’d be a partial rating. Which has been my entire point from the start, I am not disagreeing with you that the feat is possibly or even likely 2-C, I’m disagreeing that it can only be 2-C.

As for how one can depict a spacetime continuum, they can do so via drawing a time line showing snapshots of the universe all throughout time, as that would be a valid 3D model of a 4D timeline.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Here

(35:30) Palkia's entrance into the world launched spatial waves that distorted the space-time. We know it to be so, because later on they explained how the dream dimension and the real world are merging by this effect (41:42)

(55:05) Dialga roars, radiating waves that starts accelerating time (represented by the clock going faster)

(55:27) Then we are shown space-time being threatened by these waves on the computer screen, the same effect from 35:00.

So yeah, it 100% can be shown and talked about.
Click to expand...
I removed the time stamps that i am not responding to, as i have been proven wrong about there being no easy way to depict them.
However, these feats enforce the idea that space and time are one and the same and cannot be seperated usually, no? e.g time gets distorted, space also gets distorted, and vice versa.
This is a core concept of blackholes as well.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
I removed the time stamps that i am not responding to, as i have been proven wrong about there being no easy way to depict them.
However, these feats enforce the idea that space and time are one and the same and cannot be seperated usually, no? e.g time gets distorted, space also gets distorted, and vice versa.
This is a core concept of blackholes as well.
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No one is contesting that space and time aren’t intertwined dude. That’s not the contention here at all. You can shake all physical matter within a universe without having to shake the fabric of spacetime. Furthermore, you can traverse dimensions and boundaries of spacetime without having to interact with the totality of a universes spacetime. Hence why it’s not a concrete 2-C rating.
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
I removed the time stamps that i am not responding to, as i have been proven wrong about there being no easy way to depict them.
However, these feats enforce the idea that space and time are one and the same and cannot be seperated usually, no? e.g time gets distorted, space also gets distorted, and vice versa.
This is a core concept of blackholes as well.
Click to expand...
In pkmn the context is a bit different.

Still, the argument is quite simply... We aren't shown any indication that space-time is being shaken by this feat, unlike in the pkmn case. We see the worlds shaking, sure, but not their space-time. As simple as one dialogue from Squad 12 going "Holy shit, the walls separating the worlds are ******" GG easy
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Not my claim at all, stop strawmanning. Your claim is that Kubo is not allowed to visually depict a 4D construct for the audience. My claim is that you are incorrect as authors can depict abstract things or structures that we as humans couldn’t normally see in visual manners for the audience to grasp.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't the cleaner be a 4D construct or the Dangai/Garaganta?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
No one is contesting that space and time aren’t intertwined dude. That’s not the contention here at all. You can shake all physical matter within a universe without having to shake the fabric of spacetime.
Click to expand...
Except things existing create a small distortion in space-time, you, me, the random piece of dog poop on the lawn, the sun, etc, all distort space-time. Shaking these objects would also shake the distortion they cause. Shaking all physical things in a universe would be affecting the totality of its space, and you get the idea here.
Arc7Kuroi said:
Furthermore, you can traverse dimensions and boundaries of spacetime without having to interact with the totality of a universes spacetime. Hence why it’s not a concrete 2-C rating.
Click to expand...
 
KingogKings777 said:
How is it not relevant since you guys are talking about 4D constructs in bleach? Wtf man.
Click to expand...
No we aren’t 😭 we are talking about the Shutara feat and the 3 realms.

BasedNecoScaler69 said:
Except things existing create a small distortion in space-time, you, me, the random piece of dog poop on the lawn, the sun, etc, all distort space-time. Shaking these objects would also shake the distortion they cause. Shaking all physical things in a universe would be affecting the totality of its space, and you get the idea here.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately we do not accept that shaking all the physical matter or any physical matter at all warrants affecting the spacetime, if we did everyone would have spacetime manip which they don’t. If you disagree with that, take it up with vsbw standards.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
Unfortunately we do not accept that shaking all the physical matter or any physical matter at all warrants affecting the spacetime, if we did everyone would have spacetime manip which they don’t. If you disagree with that, take it up with vsbw standards.
Click to expand...
everyone does technically have limited space-time manip, just not important enough to be indexed. I'm not really sure space-time manipulation has a page of its own, just space and time manipulation separately, but if that is the case, nothing else i can argue against in that regard, the wiki standards are my greatest enemy fr. I have read too much science adventure visual novels and have pretended to be an expert in physics. 😔
 
BasedNecoScaler69 said:
everyone does technically have limited space-time manip, just not important enough to be indexed. I'm not really sure space-time manipulation has a page of its own, just space and time manipulation separately, but if that is the case, nothing else i can argue against in that regard, the wiki standards are my greatest enemy fr. I have read too much science adventure visual novels and have pretended to be an expert in physics. 😔
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So I take it you’re on the side of “4-A, likely 2-C” then? Considering the ramifications of our conversation?
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I interpret this feat, based on its showings and statements, to be that the true power of Squad 0 is shaking the 3 universes (the heavens) that each realm’s main planet (the earth) resides in. Thus, the feat would be 3x the minimum value found here, or 4.603 ExaFOE (4-A). The logic being rooted in the translation of the statement indicating that Shutara is shaking 3 universes, combined with the fact that we see more than just the planets shaking in Reiokyu itself shaking.
Click to expand...
not knowledgeable on Bleach, but shouldn't the value for the calc be higher due to inverse square law? if we use calculate the surface area using 3x the radius of the observable universe, we get 2.19e55 m^2, times that by 6.309573e10 for Mag 4 and it'd be 1.3817965e+66 Joules or 13.818 ZettaFoe, which is 3-C
 
I
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
not knowledgeable on Bleach, but shouldn't the value for the calc be higher due to inverse square law? if we use calculate the surface area using 3x the radius of the observable universe, we get 2.19e55 m^2, times that by 6.309573e10 for Mag 4 and it'd be 1.3817965e+66 Joules or 13.818 ZettaFoe, which is 3-C
Click to expand...
Im pretty sure Arc explained why the radius calc couldnt be used
 
CRIMPSUMPSKI2 said:
not knowledgeable on Bleach, but shouldn't the value for the calc be higher due to inverse square law? if we use calculate the surface area using 3x the radius of the observable universe, we get 2.19e55 m^2, times that by 6.309573e10 for Mag 4 and it'd be 1.3817965e+66 Joules or 13.818 ZettaFoe, which is 3-C
Click to expand...
It’s explained on the first page of the thread why we cannot do that. So the short answer is no, but we can take the Mag 4 for a single universe and multiply it by 3, resulting in 4.5 Zettafoe. Which is still 4-A iirc
 
Senjumaru just has an extremely blatant Tier 4 feat, like people always love to talk crap about Bleach being "all statements, no feats" but are radio silent when Senjumaru comes through and starts shaking stuff.

More on topic, with the amount of approving votes for this thread; we have enough to apply the changes when the thread reaches the necessary 48 hours threshold.
 
LordTracer said:
I think the logic is that the shaking caused by a Magnitude 4 are noticeable by most people while causing minimal destruction, which makes sense to use as a default.

At least, that’s the explanation given in the standard calc for shaking the Earth.
Click to expand...
I guess that's fine cuz the reason their true power was sealed was because it could cause harm to those universes, so like the casual output being just noticeable shaking or at the very least this being indicative of their serious power being there makes sense.
 
so, should it not say "4-A casually/holding back (as they state that she has to hold back to not cause harm), Higher is serious" or something like that?
 
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