Unown tier downgrade

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

As per my knowledge, the only reason why unowns as a group are rated at Low 2-C is because arceus used them to make the sealed forms of the creation trio. However, this should be entirely attributed to arceus and not the unowns. He could have literally done the same thing using anything at all (for example even using something as trivial as air or a bunch of magikarps) due to the number of powers and abilities he has. Also, I do not think the unowns have really shown this level of power anytime else, and I sincerely do not think that they are superior to even the lower end legendary pokemons based on what I know. So my proposal is to change the unown tiers based on other feats we might have available from the unowns. And if no such feat can be found, then they should be kept entirely at an unknown level without mentioning of the "feat" that required arceus' attributes and abilities to accomplish.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I can agree with this, but need more input, maybe they have other feats backing up their ratings.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

I can agree with this, but need more input, maybe they have other feats backing up their ratings.

Then maybe you should highlight the thread.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I can do that for you.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Iirc a group of Unown were able to survive shockwaves caused by Dialga and Palkia's clash, similar shockwaves were later tearing apart the space-time of the a universe with ease. Many of them supposedly exist outside of conventional space-time as well, according to their profile, if that stands for anything.

I'm pretty sure both of these were also discussed when they were upgraded, but for some reason weren't included in their justifications.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Here is when we discuss the justifications for the Unowns: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/507051

 

[Antvasima]

I think that the first post seems reasonable, but have not browsed through the thread linked above.

 

[Nachi117]

There should be a key thing to point out if you do set Unown to a higher rank make sure to make it clear that they are a group. As everyone knows a single Unown isn't that strong.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

The original Unown thread estimated individual Unowns at High 3-A (the minor 4-D one) for residing in a higher plane and possessing some amount of 4-D energy. High 3-A isn't on the pages because an Unown... doesn't really do anything on its own. Sometimes residing in a higher plane doesn't necessarily constitue a certain rating, but Arceus using a whole buncha Unowns to perform a Low 2-C feat should be good evidence of the 4-D nature of the Unowns. I infer from sources provided that the Unowns were capable of the Low 2-C feat collectively, but Arceus basically ordered them to do it.

Because all they do is just float around. Is it just me, or do their eyes follow one around the room?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the whole point is that the unowns were used by ARCEUS to do the feat. Arceus due to his powers could have done that even with any trivial material like thin air. So, this feat should only be attributed to arceus and not unowns.


Also, "residing on a higher plane of existance"- if we take this literally then this only means that they exist in a world which is located elsewhere on a higher dimensional axis. To put this into perspective its like two 2-D planes in 3-D with one of them simply being at a different height, and then saying that the plane at a higher hight is somehow infinitely above the lower plane. No, from what I have read it seems that unowns exist in their own pocket space (of unverified size) which is not a part of the main continuum. Its a bit like a 2-D being living outside a very big 2-D plane and just instead in a different 3-D region. Just doing that doesnt make the being 3-D at all.

 

[The_great_ZZ]

If we go by the anime than a single unown created a dimension

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

the whole point is that the unowns were used by ARCEUS to do the feat. Arceus due to his powers could have done that even with any trivial material like thin air. So, this feat should only be attributed to arceus and not unowns.

Well there is nothing really proving this, its only speculation at the moment. And I don't see why this would be the case. If it was because of Arceus's power and not the Unown then why not just straight up make them yourself? He's done it before when creating the multiverse so doing it again would be childsplay. Being used by someone else doesnt neccesarily mean the one doing the using is responsible for the feat and not the one being used.

Also I suggest we ask Cal and Dragon to give input too since they were involved with the discussion.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Kukui I was involved plus Weekly was in it. Dragon and Cal wasn't in the discussion were they? No as they were busy at the time.

Edit: I mean I am referring to the thread I linked above.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

No, Cal was involved. The link you posted was to my thread and he gave input on it. But im not sure about Dragon.

Still its good to ask them too since they know Pokemon very well.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@Kukui Oh yeah nm then.

 

[CrackerVolley]

I agree with this.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

the whole point is that the unowns were used by ARCEUS to do the feat. Arceus due to his powers could have done that even with any trivial material like thin air. So, this feat should only be attributed to arceus and not unowns.

Well there is nothing really proving this, its only speculation at the moment. And I don't see why this would be the case. If it was because of Arceus's power and not the Unown then why not just straight up make them yourself? He's done it before when creating the multiverse so doing it again would be childsplay. Being used by someone else doesnt neccesarily mean the one doing the using is responsible for the feat and not the one being used.
Also I suggest we ask Cal and Dragon to give input too since they were involved with the discussion.

The thing is, I dont think unowns have shown anything on a universal scale on their own without being used. Maybe they have a property of bing Low 2-C when being used by arceus, but other than that, thats about it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

... Maybe I should post this link that talk about Unown having a dimension: http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Unown_dimension

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The thing is, I dont think unowns have shown anything on a universal scale on their own without being used. Maybe they have a property of bing Low 2-C when being used by arceus, but other than that, thats about it.

Aside from the comment about one of them making a dimension, didnt the Unown's also create a well layered Dream Dimension for Molly in the 3rd movie?

Regardless, I don't think the reason "they can't do it without being used" isnt solid enough. That would be like saying Dialga and Palkia arent tier 2 without being used by Arceus or team galactic. Or any legendary used by a human organization to do a certain feat can't do it again and more on their own. It would still be their own power just them being forced to use it for said purposes.

 

[Blahblah9755]

As I said earlier, groups of Unown are able to survive shockwaves from a clash between Palkia and Dialga, shockwaves of similar clashes have erased universes and there's no reason to assume this one was infinitely weaker.

Here's a link, Dialga's roar of time starts around 4:05

 

[Blahblah9755]

Regardless, I don't think the reason "they can't do it without being used" isnt solid enough. That would be like saying Dialga and Palkia arent tier 2 without being used by Arceus or team galactic. Or any legendary used by a human organization to do a certain feat can't do it again and more on their own. It would still be their own power just them being forced to use it for said purposes.

That's taking things out of context, he's arguing that Arceus should be able to do it alone, regardless of the Unown, and as such could have empowered the Unown to do so. Those human organizations quite decidedly couldn't perform those feats without the legendaries.

Though, and I know this is a weird question, have we actually ever been shown Arceus creating/summoning/controlling the trio without without controlling the Unown before? Obviously I mean outside of the myths. I know he used Unown for it in both the manga and heart gold/soul silver

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

The thing is, I dont think unowns have shown anything on a universal scale on their own without being used. Maybe they have a property of bing Low 2-C when being used by arceus, but other than that, thats about it.

Aside from the comment about one of them making a dimension, didnt the Unown's also create a well layered Dream Dimension for Molly in the 3rd movie?
Regardless, I don't think the reason "they can't do it without being used" isnt solid enough. That would be like saying Dialga and Palkia arent tier 2 without being used by Arceus or team galactic. Or any legendary used by a human organization to do a certain feat can't do it again and more on their own. It would still be their own power just them being forced to use it for said purposes.

Dream dimension would be mind manipulation.

Also, what comment? Furthermore if dimension making were to be qualified as Low 2-C, then kaguya and naruto god tiers would be low 2-C (simply being commented to do something vs making a large space which could at least contain the earth, if not much more)

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

As I said earlier, groups of Unown are able to survive shockwaves from a clash between Palkia and Dialga, shockwaves of similar clashes have erased universes and there's no reason to assume this one was infinitely weaker.
Here's a link, Dialga's roar of time starts around 4:05

Is the movie considered to be canon? Furthermore, idk if "surviving a shockwave" can be enough of a reason, because iirc in the same movie, a bunch of pokemon were able to slow down the destruction due to their clash later on. Now that would not make every regular pokemon Low 2-C, would it.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

@TLT1 Kept in mind most of the Unowns doesn't have enough info about them plus it is composite profiling too. Are you suggesting we have to put a Unknown rating on them?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Dream dimension would be mind manipulation.

How would it be mind manipulation? I believe it is stated by Oak in the same movie that the Unown are able to literally create new realities by altering the world itself using the dreams and thoughts of others.

But the second point does make sense.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

@Starkiller: Yes, my suggestion is to put them completely at unknown for now.


@kukui: "it is stated by Oak in the same movie that the Unown are able to literally create new realities by altering the world itself using the dreams and thoughts of others."

- That seems to be based on mind manipulation, it uses aspects of the mind to change the perception of the world. Though I think some sort of reality warping wont be unreasonable for them. - in this regard they would be like stantler.

My suggestion is to keep their tier at unknown entirely.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I agree with '''Unknown''' Unown.

 

[EnderShadowr215]

Hmmm I will not disagree nor agree with the suggestion so I will observe this.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Well if everyone else agrees to Unknown Unown then I guess I will too.

But I would still like to discuss this later on in the future so we can try and give them a more definable tier, downgrade or upgrade, if thats alright?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Well if everyone else agrees to Unknown Unown then I guess I will too.
But I would still like to discuss this later on in the future so we can try and give them a more definable tier, downgrade or upgrade, if thats alright?

Yeah, if someone can collect more information later on, they are free to bring it up.

But for now, as of this moment, IMO, keeping them at unknown tier (along with having spatial, mind and some form of reality manipulation abilities) is proper.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Unknown statistics ratings seem reasonable.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

so can we change the stats to unknown now?

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

It should be fine

 

[Antvasima]

I think so, yes.

 

[Antvasima]

I will temporarily unlock the profile.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

tbh I think we should also change the speeds to unknown.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

tbh I think we should also change the speeds to unknown.

Why's that?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

tbh I think we should also change the speeds to unknown.

Why's that?

Because, I dont think simply existing in a different space would make them infinite in speed, unless they have multiple feats backing it up. (remember extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The dimension they originate from, the dimension they live in normally, is located outside of space-time on the same level as Dialgia and Palkia. Their dimensions even overlap in both Rise of Darkrai and Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

The dimension they originate from, the dimension they live in normally, is located outside of space-time on the same level as Dialgia and Palkia. Their dimensions even overlap in both Rise of Darkrai and Arceus and the Jewel of Life.

Yes it exists outside the space-time continuum of the universe, but have they performed any legitimate feats that make them at this level of speed.