Universal Energy System Standards

[FinePoint]

I hope that this thread doesn't ultimately get derailed because of a strawman (and with people not thinking through their responses to that strawman).

I was replying to the OP.

"Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy."

I think this can be shown rather than told, but this makes it sound like we want a statement.

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm unsure what you mean here. If it does happen, is that not intent? Like, if someone uses Pink Energy to casually make a planet, then punches you with a fist powered by Pink Energy, is that not intent or just "basic scaling"?

this is exactly the problem with the current wording, just because something has the same energy source does not mean all applications with said source are using equal energy, most verses infact draw differences between these things more often than not.

My problem isn't that it'd be rare, my problem is that we'd miss a bunch of genuine examples by being too anal about the exact wording.

on the flip side though you have many more verses being approved that far less genuine than the actual number of valid ones that are approved, that is the current reality on wiki so what's your proposed solution then if not to be actual uphold our current standard since that's how this has happened to begin with

 

[Agnaa]

I was replying to the OP.

"Implement that in order to qualify for a UES, the fighter in question must make it known that they don't just put the same type of energy, but the same amount of energy."

I think this can be shown rather than told, but this makes it sound like we want a statement.

Yeah, I don't read it as requiring a statement.

But I suppose it is also a bit further than I want, seeming to want it on the level of individual characters, when I think it could generally be applied for systems as a whole, only needing to go on that level if there's evidence of that differing between characters.

(And that nuance that I just espoused is something that I don't think is adequately communicated on the UES page right now)

 

[FinePoint]

on the flip side though you have many more verses being approved that far less genuine than the actual number of valid ones that are approved, that is the current reality on wiki so what's your proposed solution then if not to be actual uphold our current standard since that's how this has happened to begin with

Well I think we can be stricter in our enforcement without making those policies too specific.

If anything it sounds like the biggest problem is just that we've approved a lot of bad examples in the past and that became precedent.

 

[Planck69]

I do definitely agree that a lot of the issues we currently have can also be solved by just applying more scrutiny to how Universal Energy Systems are used, both before and after approval.

 

[FinePoint]

Yeah, I don't read it as requiring a statement.

But I suppose it is also a bit further than I want, seeming to want it on the level of individual characters, when I think it could generally be applied for systems as a whole, only needing to go on that level if there's evidence of that differing between characters.

(And that nuance that I just espoused is something that I don't think is adequately communicated on the UES page right now)

A lot of the nuance we're all espousing isn't adequately communicated on the UES page right now, and I think regardless of our relative stances it could stand to be a lot clearer in what exactly a UES should look like and what should potentially disqualify it.

As far as I can see the only line addressing Tempest's main concern is all the way at the bottom and it's this:
"Hence there should be evidence that an increase in power / energy should correspond to a proportional increase in the potency of their physical statistics."

This could easily be expanded with some examples, for example.

 

[YmTheSuper]

I know that I am just a content mod and that I don't have voting rights but I have always had issues with our current Energy Systems page and standards so I wanted to comment here to give my opinion along with many examples that showcase the current problems.

I completely agree that our current UES standards either need to be reworded so that they are clearer or changed so that the criteria are stricter and more obvious and clear cut, the fact many if not most energy systems that are currently accepted as Universal Energy Systems don't even fulfill the criteria needed for UES (mainly the investing similar amounts of energy requirement, but there are other) yet they have it is proof that the current system is flawed and the standards either need to be reworded or completely changed.

Let's take at some of the energy systems that are currently accepted as having a universal energy system in the wiki and see if the justification that's provided would meet the requirements:

Spoiler: Examples

Elemental Powers (Ninjago)

The current justification for being a Limited Energy System:

There are multiple variants of Elemental Powers used by multiple Elemental Masters, like Kai, Cinder and Neuro. There's also thousands of Dragons who can use Elemental Powers, like Sensei Wu and The Firstbourne. Elemental Powers would fit this criteria as they can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with Lloyd destroying rock with Energy blasts and a breath attack). They also all originate from the same power source called Source Energy

The issues:
The proof provided here is that Lloyd destroys a rock with two different techniques yet this doesn't prove that all attacks that scale to each other use the same amount of energy, it's just giving two feats not a rule or an explanation.

Elemental Essences (Ninjago)

The current justification for being a Limited Energy System:

There are multiple variants of Elemental Essences, some used by thousands of users, such as Destruction by the Onis, and Creation by the Dragons. They are often regarded as the strongest elements in the verse. Elemental Essences would fit this criteria as they can use a similar amount of power with any given technique (like with Garmadon being able to harm Lloyd with his elemental powered punches and also with his Destruction blasts). They also all originate from the same power source called Source Energy.

The issues:
The justification provided here is even weaker, all it says is that Garmadon can harm Lloyd with both elemental powered punches and with destruction blasts which obviously isn't proof that all attacks that scale to each other use the same amount of energy, all it says is that Garmadon can use 2 techniques which harm Lloyd.

Mana (TBATE):

The current justification for being a Limited Energy System:

This classification primarily applies to Conjurers in TBATE.

While the reference page for Limited Energy Systems isn't entirely clear on all qualifying scenarios, after consulting DDM, two key criteria can be identified:

# The energy can be manipulated into various forms for both offensive and defensive purposes.
# All abilities draw power from the same energy source.

TBATE’s mana system clearly satisfies the second criterion. As explained earlier, all magical abilities—whether conjured or augmented—draw power from the same internal energy source: Mana.

For the first criterion, Conjurers in TBATE consistently shape and manipulate mana into diverse forms for both attack and defense. This applies to all Conjurers across the series. Below are specific examples:

* Lucas Wykes
** Offensive use: Channels his fire attribute to launch destructive attacks.
** Defensive use: Also forms barriers or shields using fire mana.

* Feyrith Ivsaar
** Manipulates water spells for both ranged or area-based attacks and shapes water mana into protective constructs or defensive waves.

These examples demonstrate that Conjurers in TBATE can freely mold their mana into a wide range of functional shapes, meeting the criteria for a Limited Energy System.

Issues: First of all we can notice that the justification at the start mentions that the criteria in our current page aren't clear so that enforces the idea of our current page being flawed. Second, nothing here proves that techniques and attacks that scale to each other use the same amount of energy. All the justification proves is that the abilities draw from the same source and that they can be used both offensively and defensively which again doesn't meet our current standards. I also want to take a look at its justification for being a Non-Physical Energy System.

The current justification for being a Non-Physical Energy System:

As with the Limited Energy System, this classification primarily applies to Conjurers in The Beginning After The End.

To qualify as a Non-Physical Energy System, the following criteria must be met:

# It must already qualify as a Limited Energy System (LES). This has been established in the previous section.
# An increase in energy should result in a proportionate increase in the potency of the attack.

In TBATE, this condition is clearly satisfied. The more mana a Conjurer channels into a spell, the more powerful and destructive the outcome. This is a fundamental rule of the magic system throughout the series.

Issues: Ignoring the fact that being a Limited Energy System wasn't correctly proven, the justification here doesn't even give a justification for the Limited Energy System being applicable for all techniques and the thing it proves here directly contradicts the point of a Non-Physical Energy System, since it proves that spells vary in power when the whole idea of a Non-Physical Energy System is that all non-physical powers scale to each other in Attack Potency so the arguments proving the opposite of what this they want to accomplish here.

Essence (Shadow Slave)

So unlike most other pages this page doesn't prove that this energy system fits for each of the three types of energy systems but we will see which justifications are relevant.

1. Essence as a Multifaceted Energy Source

• Universal Application: Soul Essence flows naturally throughout the body, saturating bones and muscles, and is integral to both physical prowess and supernatural abilities.
• Growth of Soul Essence Quality: As individuals rank up along the Path of Ascension, the quality of their Soul Essence increases, enhancing all aspects of their being, including strength, speed, durability, perception, and mystical abilities. This demonstrates a direct link between energy progression and overall power, a core trait of universal energy systems.

2. Soul Core as the Nexus of Power

• Central Energy Hub: The Soul Core accumulates and stores vast amounts of Soul Essence, serving as the central point from which a character's power emanates.
• Shared Mechanism Across Beings: Both humans and Nightmare Creatures possess soul cores, suggesting a universal energy framework that transcends species.

3. Cross-Realm Functionality

• Consistency Across Realms: The energy system operates seamlessly across different realms, such as the Dream Realm and the Waking World, with essence and soul cores functioning identically in both.
• Universal Compatibility: Characters (usually at Transcendent and higher ranks) can absorb and utilize spirit essence (cool, flowing energy, similar to Soul Essence but this ambient essence seems to belong to the world). Regardless of the realm they are in, indicating a universal applicability of the energy system.

The Cross-Realm Functionality point is completely irrelevant here, the Soul Core being a Shared Mechanism Across Beings is also irrelevant. What the other points prove are that Essence can be used to strengthen and improve physical abilities yet nothing there proves that all attacks scale to each other in AP or that attacks that use the same amount of energy scale to each other etc... So here not only do the justifications here not suffice to prove a UES but half of the justifications have nothing to do with proving a UES, with these justification being currently accepted this also showcases further the issues with our current Energy System standards.

Mana (Ben 10)

The current justification for being a Limited Energy System:

There are many sapient species who can use Mana. There's an entire planet inhabited by Anodites, who can use mana, like Gwen Tennyson and Verdona. All mana in the universe comes from Legerdomain, so all mana users have the same source of power. Mana would fit in this criteria as they can use a similar amount of power with any given technique such as:

• Gwen's mana ball attack being able to penetrate iron along with Gwen's mana shield.
• Gwen being able to harm Sunder with her mana punches along with her mana blasts.

Issues: This similar to the example earlier with the Elemental Powers for Ninjago just gives us two feats of two techniques that achieve a similar effect (not even exactly the same) and uses it as justification that they can use a similar amount of power with any given technique when it doesn't prove that.

Punishing Energy

This section aims to outline how Punishing Energy works as a Universal Energy System within the universe of Punishing: Gray Raven. The energy stored within the Punishing Virus, often just called Punishing or Heteromer Energy, is used by all corrupted entities within the verse. However, not all combatants within the series are able to utilize it, for the thread wherein UES was accepted click here.

Given the mechanisms of Punishing, all characters who can manipulate it are given the following abilities: Energy Manipulation, Energy Absorption & Statistics Amplification.

Enhancement & Detriment
Punishing is commonly used to not only enhance characters' physical abilities such as power, durability, and speed, but also to heal any damage received. It is also used to empower and/or enhance all special abilities and even various items or weapons within the verse with examples including but not limited to:

• Luna's gravity manipulation that gives her the ability to hover.
• Lamia's molecular manipulation.
• Alpha's aura as well as Luna's Laurel frame itself.

A direct loss in one's Punishing concentration can cause a character to weaken considerably, such as when Luna lost her Agent authority which made her weaker than ordinary constructs who she's ordinarily vastly superior to. It also has various feats of both passively and actively boosting a character's abilities and/or physical statistics. Since I have already named active examples of enhancement regarding characters, I will now move on to passive enhancements which are treated as superior to active enhancements of Punishing within the verse, with some notable examples being:

• Hetero-Creatures who are pure Punishing, being dozens of times more powerful than the corrupted.
• Selene being the physical embodiment of the will of hatred of the Ascension Network and Luna's M.I.N.D replica, being able to instantly strip Luna of her Agent authority.
• Luna who was previously weaker than Selene, needing Cradle to turn her into a Hetero-Creature which causes her to then be on par and even superior to Selene despite lacking her Agent authority.

All this really proves is that Punishing Energy powers both physical and non-physical attacks/techniques, it doesn't prove that it's a UES or that all that all attacks scale to each other and have the same AP, it doesn't once talk about the amount or quantity of energy. The arguments in the CRT that got the UES accepted in the first place are even weaker.

[UEL=[URL]https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordGriffin1000/Ectoplasmic_Energy_(UES)]Ectoplasmic[/URL] Energy (Danny Phantom)[/URL]

This is the main energy source used in the Danny Phantom verse and is used by all ghosts.

Ghost Physiology and Statistics Effects

Here is a page that I created regarding the physiology of ghosts from Danny Phantom and the standard powers, resistances, and weaknesses they share.

But the main thing that is important is the statement made by Maddie Fenton about Danny Phantom, calling him a manifestation of ectoplasmic energy and post-human consciousness. This is shown when we see Danny break himself down into energy and reconstruct himself, and other ghosts construct their bodies from their ambient energy.

This already lets us know their energy has an effect on their bodies and thus statistics because ectoplasmic energy is a literal part of their form's make-up. It is also showcased on multiple occasions that ghosts can channel their energy through their bodies and use it to further amplify their strength and coat themselves in aura.

Ghosts also each have their own unique ectoplasmic energy signature, so if you can sense it, you could tell which ghost it is. But that doesn't matter regarding the potency, it's pretty much like in other series where they can tell what character is approaching by reading their energy.

As mentioned above, ectoplasmic energy can further enhance a ghost's strength, but the best example that showcases ghost energy has an effect on statistics is when ghosts take possession of humans. When this occurs, we see it has a physical effect on the human in different ways, but on multiple occasions, the human displays enhanced strength, speed, and durability. When the ghost is removed, these physical changes are gone as well.

We also see when Danny duplicated himself using his energy while wearing the Ecto-Skeleton, it divided his power equally for each clone. With what's shown above, it should be clear that ghost energy is a Universal Energy System that applies to the ghosts’ overall statistics as it's literally a part of their form's make-up, and is shown directly affecting the overall statistics of the characters affected by it. Thus, ghosts that showcase similar strength as another can be scaled in speed and vice versa.

Similar to the previous energy system all this proves is that both physical and non-physical attacks are powered by Ectoplasmic Energy yet there's no justification provided to prove that all of the attacks and techniques would scale to each other and would have the same AP.

Time Power (Dragon Ball)

Time Power is an energy-type power. Users can shoot, project energy blasts, generate aura, etc.

Time Power can affect users' overall power, and their overall strength, which in turn increases users' physical statistics, the speed of their movements and flights, the force of their attacks, and the power of their energy blasts.

Special abilities (haxes) all come from the energy. Users can release those abilities as spells or have them mixed in the energy attacks, which can both deal damage and apply special effects on the target at the same time. Users can also make shields that block both energy attacks and special abilities (haxes).

Giving the energy to someone not only boosts their overall power, strength, and speed, but also allows them to have access to all special abilities (haxes), as those abilities are tied to and come from the energy itself. This is also true for anyone who absorbs the energy. As long as they get the energy/power, their physical statistics get a boost along with access to special abilities.

Thus, Time Power qualifies as a Universal Energy System.

Same as the two previous energy systems.

From this we can see that a large majority if not most of the energy system in the wiki that are accepted as a Universal Energy System don't meet the criteria required to achieve, a lot of them don't even meet the criteria for a limited energy system. You can notice that many are due to a lack of understanding of the standards and many just use some scans or examples that don't even prove what they want to prove. If these were just proposals CRTs it wouldn't be a problem but the fact that this sheer amount are accepted without their justification matching the criteria makes it a problem that needs to be addressed.

Another issue is that there currently exist contradictions in-verse for most verses that currently have UES, even ones that are considered by many as definitive Universal Energy Systems (Like Ki from Dragon Ball):

Spoiler: Contradictions

1) Ki (Dragon Ball): Ki is currently accepted as a UES which means that all attacks and techniques should scale to each other by the definition of a Universal Energy System, yet there are many contradictions with that. For example, Cell and Goku were exchanging punches and kicks with no issue yet when Cell was hit by Goku's kamehameha the upper half of his body was destroyed. (Piccolo Saying that Goku will unleash a "full power" Kamehameha proves that not all attacks have the same power and AP). Another example is when UI Sign Goku and Pre-Transformation Moro were exchanging physical attacks normally yet Super Saiyan Blue Goku, which is a weaker form than UI Sign managed to destroy the arm of a much stronger Moro after he transformed with his Kamehameha (The same Moro punched a hole through the same Goku casually).

Funnily enough despite Ki being accepted as a UES we also already accept in the profiles that the Kamehameha is stronger than physical attacks, same for the Galick Gun, Final Flash and the Big Bang Attack. And it's also the case for the Makankōsappō and Tri-Beam which are constantly portrayed as vastly superior to physicals.

But at this point with all of these attacks that don't scale to physicals and to other attacks can you really say that this is a Universal Energy System and that all attacks scale to each other and to physicals. (Obviously scaling to these attacks via damaging someone who tanked them is still possible but that's just basic powerscaling and has nothing to do with UES).

2) Reiatsu (Bleach): Reiastu is also another energy system the people automatically consider a UES but it suffers from similar problems as Ki. The Gran Rey Cero and Cero Oscuras are 10x stronger than other Ceros as accepted in the profiles. (even without the multiplier the Gran Rey Cero is stated to be superior to normal Cero which goes against all attacks scaling to each other[/URL]. We have a similar case with the Getsuga Tensho. There's also the fact that Kido which use reiatsu get stronger the higher their number is and also that their effectiveness and strength gets higher with incantation. (A hado spell with incantation is stronger than the same spell without it)

If there exist many instances like these of attacks that contradict idea that all attacks should scale to each other which is in the definition of UES for energy systems that are accepted as being Universal Energy Systems then what's the point of this in the first place. The whole point of an energy system qualifying to be a UES is that all attacks whether physical or non-physical scale to each other yet if this is often contradicted even explicitly as shown above can we really call this a UES and can we really say that all attacks scale to each other.


Also along with all of these problems I think another big problem with our current standards for energy systems is that it overgeneralizes and oversimplifies energy and magical systems that function fundamentally differently under a set of rules that are kind of arbitrary. While yes keeping the current standards and rewording/clarifying them would obviously be an improvement over how it is currently, I think it would just be better if we only do scaling between different attacks and attack types in a case-by-case basis either via:

-Regular scaling (Person 1 tanks the magical attack of Person 2 and Person 2 can harm Person 1 by punching him), this would obviously scale him only to that attack in particular unless there's a statement that all magical attacks scale to each other or if there are scaling chains.

-A direct statement that the attacks scale to each other/are powerful as each other.

This change should fix most of the problems that are currently present with the current system and we would work under clearer standards that would be less susceptible to error since we would be treating everything in a case-by-case basis. if that can't be done and other staff members disagree with this approach then I believe a full rewording and rework of our Energy Systems page must at least be made to fix these issues.

 

[FinePoint]

Also along with all of these problems I think another big problem with our current standards for energy systems is that it overgeneralizes and oversimplifies energy and magical systems that function fundamentally differently under a set of rules that are kind of arbitrary. While yes keeping the current standards and rewording/clarifying them would obviously be an improvement over how it is currently, I think it would just be better if we only do scaling between different attacks and attack types in a case-by-case basis either via:

Yeah, another big factor is that even in the verses that do clearly want something like this, the way it works is often very arbitrary and character-specific.

For example, it's very common for one character to have their physicals scale completely to their magic because they're kind of a 'bruiser' type but another magic-user using the exact same system is like 30% physical and 70% energy because they're more of a 'wizard' type.

That said, a lot of things we index are the same way that we try to force into some kind of logical number or direct scaling. I would say that so long as it's mostly consistent we could gloss over that kind of thing and apply it generally, and we could always make exceptions for characters who break a trend too.

 

[Planck69]

That said, a lot of things we index are the same way that we try to force into some kind of logical number or direct scaling. I would say that so long as it's mostly consistent we could gloss over that kind of thing and apply it generally, and we could always make exceptions for characters who break a trend too.

Heavy emphasis on this. We're unlikely to ever find a one size fits all solution to this so getting as close as we can without being overly obtuse about it is the best we can do that.

I also think some point on the page should allow for exceptions like your wizard example to exist cause it's clearly a quirk of the system that we have to factor in from time to time.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I still don't know and haven't been told if Image Helpers can comment in staff threads or not so here goes...

Frankly, I'd agree with this whole-heartedly. And while this has unfortunate connotations for a verse a I support, that's not a reason to not do this. Frankly, even if no other verse did, Star Wars would still 100% qualify for UES off of the principle of Force Amplification plus basic scaling, and even then we're not scaling people to their rituals.

There's no reason to argue against tighter standards here, an energy system, even a non-physical one, should be inherently hard to get ahold of. And really, 9/10 you don't even need to because you can literally just scale normally. Energy Systems are generally argued when someone wants to actually use a storm/creation feat for something besides fluff.

 

[Antvasima]

What is the consensus here so far, and what does Agnaa think, in summary?

 

[DaReaperMan]

What is the consensus here so far, and what does Agnaa think, in summary?

Essentially? Universal agreement. These were standards anyways it's just that the page itself kind of half-baked communicated them to the point other staff were confused on it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems fine to me as well then, unless Agnaa disagrees.

 

[KLOL506]

I think that requiring explicit confirmation of the 'same level' of energy is asking for too much of fiction and will rarely ever happen even if it was the intention.

I do think though that some sense of similar scale and consistent context should definitely be taken into account before approving a UES, and the page should definitely reflect that.

Aye. I think that at the very least, contextual evidence should be fine for this, pending thorough evaluation by staff. Either that or just note more clearly that attacks with far greater power put into them and the like should need another round of evaluation to scale to physical statistics.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Agnaa]

What is the consensus here so far, and what does Agnaa think, in summary?

I think when we get down to the details, there will be a decent bit of quibbling over the details. We'd be best served by getting out some drafts for people to vote on.

My views are....

I think these clarifications are nice. But I’m disillusioned and think they won’t end up changing anything. And there’s some additional tweaks that might be worth including. One of those being a disclaimer that most verses don’t actually need this and can just use ordinary scaling (multiple techniques damaged the same character, so they’re comparable). Others were outlined by me back here:

But I suppose it is also a bit further than I want, seeming to want it on the level of individual characters, when I think it could generally be applied for systems as a whole, only needing to go on that level if there's evidence of that differing between characters.

• Two moves both not causing fatigue is insufficient by itself. The user may have a stamina pool of 100k, where one uses 50, and the other uses 10. Giving them notably different potencies, without requiring noticeably different amounts of energy.
• Many artifacts can't demonstrate how much energy their effects required.
• Even with proper evidence, energy requirements can be a bad way to scale in series where proficiency and additional effects are a factor.

I personally am fine with stuff that doesn't have explicit statements, like a character who effortlessly performed a 7-C feat with magic, and later unleashed a flurry of punches that left them exhausted, all tied together with a UES. I'd also add that many video game verses end up stumbling into providing such "explicit statements".

 

[KingTempest]

bump

 

[Dalesean027]

I think when we get down to the details, there will be a decent bit of quibbling over the details. We'd be best served by getting out some drafts for people to vote on.

My views are....

I think these clarifications are nice. But I’m disillusioned and think they won’t end up changing anything. And there’s some additional tweaks that might be worth including. One of those being a disclaimer that most verses don’t actually need this and can just use ordinary scaling (multiple techniques damaged the same character, so they’re comparable). Others were outlined by me back here:

@Antvasima

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with Agnaa's conclusions here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I did see a link to this thread on Discord a couple days ago, and couldn't comment at the time since I was on vacation. But I got to say that it sounds like the OP is overblowing some misconceptions out of proportion. While I do agree that looking back, the way our page is written seems a bit dated and is otherwise misinterpreting what was the actual plan from the beginning. However we do NOT need stricter standards on what qualifies as a Universal Energy System let alone the other two smaller tiers of an energy system; that being the Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy Systems. Honestly, the worst offenders periods are people with all or nothing mentalities where "everything is either "Fully Universal" or not an energy system at all period." And it does bother me a lot how a lot of people overlook that Limited Energy Systems and Non-Physical Energy systems are also lore based systems that can also pinpoint other smaller examples of "Equally potent in both directions" examples. Like even Limited Energy Systems such as Water bending have a pretty self explanatory examples where they are equally capable of changing the state of water between ice (Solid), water (Liquid) and steam (Gas), but neither their ability to import/export energy into/from water nor their ability to telekinetically move water scales to how potent their physical melee attacks are and what not. And Non-Physical Energy Systems are also more or less the same way, but also have both water manipulation and fire manipulation abilities use the same energy system/source.

But on topic, the problems the OP is complaining about has less to do with the concept and/or requirements of the Energy System (Up to Universal Energy systems) and more to do with the individual character or verse scaling (With downscaling/upscaling included). When it comes to actual full scaling, I do agree that there should be stricter standards when it comes to that. There are a bit many assumptions on whether or not certain feats were actually casual or not. And likewise, I have been saying from the very beginning that it's not like extremely casual attacks are fully on par with attacks requiring heavy concentration and effort. Using a different amount of energy is not a counter argument against a UES' existence, but more so a common limitation or weakness for a wide variety of characters and/or verses. It was never agreed that everything had to be absolutely 1 to 1 in order to qualify, nor that anyone has to have 100% energy efficiency (Otherwise the only characters who would are those with infinite stamina despite lacking an infinite supply of energy and possess the ability to just keep absorbing and recycling their own energy attacks indefinitely). But this was the simple idea of what each energy system means.

• Limited Energy System: A single power or ability that isn't a general Superhuman Physical characters being treated like a limited form of Energy Manipulation (For example, a regular Fire Manipulation ability that uses "Fire Energy"). Note, sometimes even an energy system that is just a superhuman physical stat with nothing supernatural involved could sort of be seen as a Limited Energy systems. When Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Speed are both treated as vastly different energy systems, they could also be seen as limited energy systems individually.
• Non-Physical Energy System: When Two or more Supernatural abilities (Not including Superhuman Physical Characteristics) are treated like a subpowers of a broader type of energy manipulation (For example magical energy being used for wide varieties of magical powers and abilities including the ability to bend a variety of elements (Water, Fire, Lightning, Wind, Earth, ect)
• Universal Energy System: Basically when a collection of powers and abilities Including Superhuman Physical Characteristics are treated as a broad Energy Manipulation ability. And often uses energy systems that consist of both physical energy/power and metaphysical energy/power being interlinked as the same type of energy.

I was not the one who created a split between Limited and Non-Physical. In my original Draft, I merely described them both as "Semi-Universal Energy Systems," that was @DontTalkDT who originally proposed them. And I was originally on the offense due to Limited Energy Systems sounding more like just generic Fire Manipulation, generic Water Manipulation, ect. But I later did concede to its existence. Though the requirement to still be an energy system even if limited is that there needs to an ability to manipulate energy (Or something that requires energy) not just release energy. Though I suppose being able to control how hard you shoot energy still counts as a form of manipulation even if limited. Though, ironically there do exist some Limited Energy Systems that feel closer to Unversal than various Non-Physical ones do based on physical strength being effected to an extent.

And if there is one thing that has been missing in the explanations, some verses have concepts known as energy systems within energy systems. As well as extended versions of existing energy systems. Subordinate Energy Systems and Extended ones aren't necessarily levels in the same vein as Limited Vs Non-Physical Vs Universal. But rather they're different categories that can also be explained verse by verse or character by character. Some verses do have Energy Systems that are collectively Universal, or at least Non-Physical but consists of a multitude of Limited Energy Systems. And likewise, even Subordinate Energy Systems aren't always limited (There can exist a Universal Energy System within a energy system that is basically "Even more universal." Avatar: The Last Airbender and Naruto series are basically examples of verses with Subordinate Energy Systems. As there are 6 different subtype Chakras in Naruto, and Avatar has "The Seven Chakras" as their subordinate energy systems. It has been brought up that the 5 elemental Chakra in Naruto are more limited with two or more of them working together to form Non-Physical levels. But then Yin-Yang is like the only Chakra type that seemingly has criteria for Universal, thus making Chakra Universal, but the individuals having the ability to make use of them is a different story. Avatar also has a similar situation. Most of the 7 Chakras are clearly quite limited individually while possibly reaching Non-Physical territory. Firebenders can also Lightning Bend which arguably makes it more Non-Physical as opposed to limited, but that's because some more advanced levels of bending besides the 4 respective basic levels require insight from the 6th Light Chakra. The 7th Chakra is for much of the same reason(s) as Yin-Yang is the only true Universal of the subordinates that can lead to the full system being Universal. Likewise, Ki an Dragon Ball is outright Universal, but things like Godly Ki and Ki of Destruction are even more universal (Regular Ki already meets criteria and then some, but then Godly Ki basically does everything better + has its own features excluded from regular Ki). But I suppose those discussions in this paragraph might all need to be saved for later.

But back to the main topic, my other concerns towards the OP are more or less repeats of what I mentioned in the thread Agnaa linked above. The biggest issues at the moment isn't the idea of Universal Energy Systems nor do we need to be stricter than we already are at needing requirements. If anything, I think our UES qualification procedures are too strict. But what we DO need to be stricter about is the idea of downscaling. Even with UES qualifications, we can't always promise that characters are guaranteed to downscale from their final attacks. Even if it means gaps could be infinite (Fiction is weird like that where even if characters are capable of feats High 3-A and above, it's not always assumed casual attacks downscale, UES or not). The Weave is accepted as a UES, but there are Wizards in DnD lore capable of 2-A levels of destruction, but there regular spells (And by extention what their striking strength and durability scale from) are like High 6-A at best. To which, I agreed with some of Agnaa's points there too.

 

[KLOL506]

I am still in agreement with Planck and FinePoint regarding judging what constitutes feats being casual or fatigue-inducing.

EDIT: Because of their reasonings, I am also in vehement disagreement with how Agnaa wants to judge whether or not a feat is casual or fatigue-inducing.

 

[Random-Helper323]

If the feat seems casual or otherwise isn't shown to take a long time or a significant toll, it should be okay or at worst a minor downscaling issue. The big issue is taking a character who took five months of constant charging to cast a spell then scaling it to his normal attacks.

 

[Dalesean027]

• Limited Energy System: A single power or ability that isn't a general Superhuman Physical characters being treated like a limited form of Energy Manipulation (For example, a regular Fire Manipulation ability that uses "Fire Energy"). Note, sometimes even an energy system that is just a superhuman physical stat with nothing supernatural involved could sort of be seen as a Limited Energy systems. When Superhuman Strength and Superhuman Speed are both treated as vastly different energy systems, they could also be seen as limited energy systems individually.
• Non-Physical Energy System: When Two or more Supernatural abilities (Not including Superhuman Physical Characteristics) are treated like a subpowers of a broader type of energy manipulation (For example magical energy being used for wide varieties of magical powers and abilities including the ability to bend a variety of elements (Water, Fire, Lightning, Wind, Earth, ect)
• Universal Energy System: Basically when a collection of powers and abilities Including Superhuman Physical Characteristics are treated as a broad Energy Manipulation ability. And often uses energy systems that consist of both physical energy/power and metaphysical energy/power being interlinked as the same type of energy.

Are you proposing we judge which system by the number of abilities someone has because like???, that's even more loose than our current standards which already haven't been getting followed

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Are you proposing we judge which system by the number of abilities someone has because like???, that's even more loose than our current standards which already haven't been getting followed

Not so much the number of abilities any character or verse has in general, but just how many of those abilities are included/effected by the respective energy system. And there are a lot of verse specific examples that have other things, but none of those other things really effect the baseline requirements to qualify as an energy system. To basically summarize the absolute baselines of each tiers is something like this, and none of these indicate justification for downscaling casual attacks from serious attacks if there are other concerns, just that these are the basic qualifications for the energy system(s) themselves.

• A Limited Energy System has one specific ability involving a type of energy, where the more of that specific type of energy, the more potent it grows. And it can either be one specific supernatural ability or it can be a non-supernatural ability such as Superhuman Physical Characteristics (Or a weaker version of even that such as effecting strength but not speed, or effecting speed but not strength)
• A Non-Physical Energy System involves 2 or more types of Supernatural Abilities that are derived from a single type of Supernatural Energy system, but the supernatural energy system in general does not effect superhuman physical characteristics just from the energy system status due to physical capabilities being separate from the type of energy system in general.
• A Universal Energy System involves both at least one Supernatural ability (That involves using energy) as well as a general Superhuman Physical Characteristics sharing the same energy source of empowerment. Examples being one uses Mana, Ki, Willpower, Weave, ect to enhance the potency of their fireball shots but also can use those same respective energy to enhance striking power and durability.

Of course, other parameters can be indexed from case by case, even if it's a qualified UES, we can of course consider that maybe melee strikes aren't always assumed to be utilizing the same amount of energy as a potent fireball attack. Some examples being that Spirit Gun being specifically stated to be 2x stronger than their standard punching power is grounds that they clearly is a UES, but melee attacks only use roughly half as much energy as the Spirit Gun. I also do pretty much agree looking back that changing the name of the page to just "Energy Systems" as opposed to "Universal Energy Systems" sounds like a good idea to avoid all those confusions. That's probably a backbone for why so many people, including the OP, keep getting the idea why the energy system(s) themselves and scaling get mixed up or why so many people even keep neglecting the existence of Limited or Non-Physical Energy Systems in themselves.

I also left common footnotes that there are plenty of supernatural abilities that objectively have nothing to do with the flow of energy/power and that those hax abilities can't really be interpreted as AP/Durability just from the presentation. But there are plenty of verse specific powers that also seem to equally effect the ability to manipulate/resist things such as Mind, Soul, Fate, Existence Erasure, or other abstract concepts just as equally as it effects physical stats and ability to manipulate the elements. So hax abilities like that are completely irrelevant regarding the qualification of a UES. We have things in Dragon Ball where someone's ability to manipulate the mind as well as the ability to resist mind manipulation are separate from how high one's Power Level is, but there are other verses where the ability to both manipulate and resist mind manipulation are equally effected by one's connection to said energy system where both raw power and telepathy just happen to equally get amped as a result of a stronger use of it. None of those abilities need to be included an any specific energy system to qualify as Non-Physical let alone Universal Energy System, but at the same time, it doesn't hurt the status of a UES if there are verse specific powers including them and/or excluding them or whether or not they have them effected.

Finally, it is still a common note that there can be a lot of ironies. Because like what was said, there are plenty of cases where even if there are shared energy systems, we don't always have 1 to 1 scales. Especially when it comes to final attacks and suicide attacks. And iirc, Agnaa believes most creation feats that lack in depth explanations on it being done casually should more or less default to us treating them not to far off to how we would normally treat suicide attacks or techniques that leave the user completely exhausted/depowered after one use. To which can emphasize with, but he is welcome to correct me on that. On top of that, it is technically possible for a character(s) striking strength and durability to upscale from their own, and/or another character's Limited or Non-Physical Energy System. Just like there are plenty of Indirect feats that result in upscaling energy system or not. Like let's say Character A completely repelled character B's High 6-A meteor magic attack with just their hand. That's an obvious upscale regardless of any involved UES, but the upscaling happens as a result of scaling dependent feats as opposed to any sort of shared energy system.

 

[Random-Helper323]

Of course, many large creation feats happened long ago, with no definite timespan, but involve creating an entire Low 2-C structure, so that would likely still have to be treated as such, since that structure is infinite. After all, what's infinite energy divided over 200 years? It's still infinite.

 

[KLOL506]

Of course, many large creation feats happened long ago, with no definite timespan, but involve creating an entire Low 2-C structure, so that would likely still have to be treated as such, since that structure is infinite. After all, what's infinite energy divided over 200 years? It's still infinite.

This is why visual cues are important and placing too much importance on statements isn't the way to cut it.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump of heaven and earth

 

[Antvasima]

I still think that KingTempest and Agnaa make sense here.

 

[KingTempest]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Which staff members think what here so far?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Basically what Agnaa said was mirroring my intentions in the first place; where we do not need to be any more strict than we seem to be demonstrating to qualify for the concept of a UES (And lower levels), but what we should likely be stricter about is a common assumption(s); as in, we shouldn't just make a "Everything is 100% energy efficiency" nor assume every power scales 1 to 1 by default just because of a qualified UES. More over, everything being 1 to 1 was never a mandatory requirement in the first place. Examples such as early era DBZ has Goku's Super Kamehameha Wave being 3x stronger than his standard melee attacks was never a disqualifier or counter argument against Ki in Dragon Ball being a UES; and if anything, it actually double supports the basic idea. And this is especially proven that novices of certain techniques have such gaps, but stronger they grow, the lower the gaps because "Ultimate Ki Blasts" and regular melee attacks tend to be. Which is demonstrated in later arcs.

And I pretty much do agree with KingTempest on one thing; that we should probably shorten the name of the page from "Universal Energy Systems" to just "Energy Systems" to clarify misconceptions and hopefully stop people from neglecting the existence of Limited and Non-Physical Energy Systems altogether. While the way his OP is worded does seem to be following misconceptions/guidelines, and following the common misconceptions Agnaa clarified. It sounds like KingTempest was one of the people who had the impression or assumed that Energy Efficiency being perfect or every technique being 1 to 1 were requirements; when Agnaa, me, and DontTalkDT have pointed out on multiple occasions that those were never full requirements. And what should actually be proposed is to either reclarify in the page that our UES qualifications were never that strict but that the actual scaling could be a different story. I also did agree with things FinePoint, Planck, and KLOL have pointed out that while some degree of clarification standards would be desired, but not something like mentioning that it has to say they used "X Megatons of energy" to every technique they used. But simplified comparisons and contrasts could common preferences as evidence for scaling.

Moreover, this is one of those topics where we may need input from @DontTalkDT who more or less created the page based on my notes/draft.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mostly agree with DDM here

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

What's the current consensus?

 

[KLOL506]

What's the current consensus?

Mostly to add the criteria required to qualify for each type of energy system in a bullet-point and to not be overtly strict with 'em or what constitutes as fatigue-inducing or casual.

 

[KingTempest]

-_-

 

[KingTempest]

Ykw no

I'm not gonna sit here and brat.

What would we say as a group constitutes a UES then?

 

[Duedate8898]

A power system in which the users empower both techniques and their physical stats with energy I think is the most fitting def for a UES if we're trying to maintain the original heart of the idea. As that is the main distinction it appears to have from the likes of a Non Physical Energy System, which is about the empowerment of different non-physical abilities with the same energy without any regards to enhancing or amplyfing physical stats.

 

[KingTempest]

So are we gonna remove the whole point of scaling then? because one of the criteria for NPES is that the energy attacks are equal in AP. but if we're tossing that out to fit this definition then we should just throw the whole point of scaling attacks to each other if the only distinction is what the energy is for

 

[Duedate8898]

Going over this thread, I figured the point is that these systems give a basis for such scaling but don't immediately assure it.

A verse having a UES doesn't automatically mean everyone should scale between their physical stats and their other techinques, but a UES can be used to support such scaling. Same is true for NPES where the basis that all of these different techinques draw from the same source should be considered support for them scaling to one another but doesn't automatically ensure it.

As I've stated before, it seems unintuitive and illogical that a verse can have characters use the same energy for enhancing their bodies and other forms of techinques but because their isn't indication that the power output is scalable between these different things that verse is actually only a Non-Physical Energy System. The same is true for NPES. If the people are utilizing the same energy source across all their non-physical feats that seems like a firm basis to believe that their might be scaling between these feats.

Hence why our current functioning qualifier for a NPES includes this wording after it talks about reliable statements of scaling between techniques:
That means in particular that either the user makes use of only one system of power (e.g. magic powered by mana) or that the user uses several different ones (e.g. magic and chi) but they draw from the same underlying power source or can convert their power between the different kinds of power sources.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69

 

[KingTempest]

Going over this thread, I figured the point is that these systems give a basis for such scaling but don't immediately assure it.

A verse having a UES doesn't automatically mean everyone should scale between their physical stats and their other techinques, but a UES can be used to support such scaling. Same is true for NPES where the basis that all of these different techinques draw from the same source should be considered support for them scaling to one another but doesn't automatically ensure it.

As I've stated before, it seems unintuitive and illogical that a verse can have characters use the same energy for enhancing their bodies and other forms of techinques but because their isn't indication that the power output is scalable between these different things that verse is actually only a Non-Physical Energy System. The same is true for NPES. If the people are utilizing the same energy source across all their non-physical feats that seems like a firm basis to believe that their might be scaling between these feats.

Hence why our current functioning qualifier for a NPES includes this wording after it talks about reliable statements of scaling between techniques:
That means in particular that either the user makes use of only one system of power (e.g. magic powered by mana) or that the user uses several different ones (e.g. magic and chi) but they draw from the same underlying power source or can convert their power between the different kinds of power sources.

the whole point of the thread is that UES means that everyone should scale between their physical stats and other techniques, but not everybody applies for a UES, and I was showing the true implications of what a UES truly implied on the site.

i don't understand the disconnect of "we use the same type of energy but not the same amount" and that becoming the mass agreed derailment of the thread. my fridge and my toaster don't use the same amount of electricity, the body and "magic moves" don't use the same amount of energy. that's the whole point.

but because the wiki is stuck in its ways to say "yeah these verses objectively apply" like dragon ball Z for example, we're tossing logic out the window