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Undertale Speeds and Powers

Ultima_Reality

Ultima_Reality

?????????
VS Battles
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Sans

Well, it seems like despite him having actual stats now, Sans speed is still listed as Unknown, which bothers me

Sans dodges Chara's attacks during almost all of his battle, and only dies because Chara broke the rules of the game, i see no reason for his speed not be Massively Hypersonic+

So, i think Sans speed should be changed to:

Massively Hypersonic+, likely far higher


Asriel

According to Azathoth, The Abyssal Idiot and his page, Asriel's Omnipresence comes from the fact that he achieved control over "all aspects of existence"


This honestly makes no sense to me


Controlling all of existence doesn't grant Omnipresence, it grants the abilities to control Time, Space and Reality, but not Omnipresence, and his only speed feat is moving when he erased the timeline


Therefore, Asriel's speed when using 100% of his power should be changed to Immeasurable, due to being far superior to Frisk and moving normally when he destroyed the timeline


Annoying Dog

This one is fine, the only problem is his Immortality, which is listed as "Likely Type 5"


Isn't Type 5 Immortality only for High 1-As and Tier 0s?
 
Whoa. Considering all the Undertale revisions in the past, I'll go ahead and highlight this. I know Azzy is the Undertale professional here, but I'm not sure if he's active atm but I'll contact him nontheless.

Btw Annoying Dog got Type 5 before Type 4 was revised and Type 9 and 10 got added.
 
Azzy said something about Sans still being the fastest non-immeasurable character or whatever. Something on the fact that even when Sans is asleep, or close to it or whatever, he can still dodge Chara's attack with no problems.

But hopefully he says something about it here.
 
I'm still kinda eh about limiting Sans to "faster than MHS+", when his whole sthick is that he abuses game mechanics to be impossible to hit.

The rest seems fine enough to me though...
 
The reason I have not listed Sans' speed as MHS+ is mainly because the speed gap between him and Chara is astronomical. It's quite literally impossible for Chara to strike Sans, no matter how many times they reset, until they break the rules of the game and hit him when they shouldn't be able to. Having the MHS+ will, I guarantee, give people in vs threads the impression that Sans is "only" MHS+, which is completely false.

Asriel being Immeasurable is fine, as the omnipresence is mostly from the perspective of lower beings, and at this level it's virtually the same.

Ven is correct in that AD had Type 5 before 4 was revised and 9 and 10 were added to our system. It can likely be changed to something more accurate and exact, now.
 
To elaborate slightly on the Sans' thing, the difference between the lowest and highest bounds of MHS+ is less than 9x (Mach 1000-8810.2).

Tsunderplane, a generic monster in Hotland, has a speed of ~Mach 3000, so a good amount into MHS+.

By this point, Chara can casually murder Tsunderplane and multiple other monsters simultaneously, and kill significantly stronger monsters before they can properly mount a defense.

It is literally impossible for Chara to hit Sans without breaking the rules of the game like he did. Sans is actually so much faster than Chara, that they can't hit him even if he's asleep. They can't even hit him if they reset the timeline so much that they're aware of what he'll do at almost all times.

It's like the difference between Usain Bolt and a snail.
 
Not sure. The main reason I have him at "Unknown" is because there is no way to get a decent grasp on his speed except for the fact that it is literally impossible for an at least MHS+ character to even touch him.
 
Given what Azzy said, I am fine with Unknown Sans.

I also took away the Type 5 from Annoying Dog.
 
@Azathoth

Hmmm, okay

But what about Asriel's reasonings for his first key's speed? Where it was shown or stated that he was "switching and modifying timelines" while interacting with Frisk?
 
@Azathoth I would appreciate your help with this.
 
You can place a message on Azathoth's wall to remind him about this thread, if you wish.
 
I haven't seen where Asriel had achieved control over all aspects of existence. This statement with him attacking Frisk everywhere and not allowing them to do anything at all sounds just like Status Effect Inducement.

I agree with mostly everything except sans speed.
 
I actually don't agree with unknown sans. We're a stat indexing site. We should try our best to give him a set tier. Take Berserk Ganon for instance. We don't rank him at unknown for being unfathomably superior to absolute fodder of fodder dodongos, which are High 7-A. We rank him at at least 6-C. Sans should be at least sub-Rel as a rating.
 
Agreed with Cal about setting a set speed tier, but I personally feel it would be more accurate to put Sans at "Unknow, at least Massively Hypersonic+", since we only know he's astronomically faster than a MHS+ character, but not by how much. Sub-Rel feels like too much of a jump when the tier spreads from Mach 1000 to Mach 8810.2, as was stated earlier, and the fastest calc'd monster is only ~Mach 3000.
 
I will ask Azathoth. Undertale is his expertise.
 
It's not a matter of Sans just being faster. It's a matter of, in universe, a character who is at least Mach 3000 can't even touch him, no matter how many times they reset to know exactly where he'll be and when he'll move, and even if he's asleep.

He is literally untouchable until you break in-universe rules and strike him while he can't defend. The speed gap is so astronomical that knowing his exact position, time of movement, and original destination is useless. Combined with the fact he can abuse in-universe mechanics, I don't see a solid way to give him a solid speed without under/overselling him in the process.
 
Okay. Has this been clarified in his profile page?
 
@Azathoth I have to disagree. As it was said earlier, the gap between the low and high end of MHS+ is vast. Sans could very well be in MHS+ and be untouchable to Chara due to the sheer speed advantage. If he's so fast, he could easily spot if they'll hit him how he's currently dodging and easily compensate by dodging before their knife even hits them. The only time he doesn't dodge is when Chara swings twice, since he then expects them to wait their turn or let him speak, which they don't.

Either way, all I'm suggesting is "Unknown, at least Massively Hypersonic+", since at least it gives him a speed minimum and you can still indicate he is far higher in his speed description.
 
Actually MHS+ isn't a big speed tier. Being 3 times as fast as Tsunderplane already qualifies for Sub-Relativistic speed
 
Okay, yeah, my math is bad today, but I'm fairly certain that being Mach 9000 compared to a Mach 3000 character is bigger than being Mach 9 compared to a Mach 3 character.
 
Being a few Mach ahead of someone is still enough to be considered untouchable to them. It's like trying to shoot a Mach 10 character with a bullet, it's never going to work.
 
The Everlasting said:
Being a few Mach ahead of someone is still enough to be considered untouchable to them. It's like trying to shoot a Mach 10 character with a bullet, it's never going to work.
Click to expand...
That's because the mach 10 character is almost a dozen times faster than even a rifle shot. Not because it's a couple mach ahead.
 
I mean, if speed wasn't based on proportions, we wouldn't be able to make matches with speed unequal with anyone who is MHS or faster (but slower than infinite).
 
@Azzy

My point is that if you're just a few Mach higher you can still remain untouchable to someone below. You don't need to be several times faster.
 
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