Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #41
Incredulity I don't know, but Appeal to Reality no; I have dismissed it.
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Undertale Speed: Possible Downgrade
- Thread starter Requiem_Yoriichi
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Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #42
That's not how powers and abilities work? In fact it would rather carry the fact these characters have these abilities since abilities are mostly magical.
What I only "nuked" is the lightning speed. The rest can stay, as my proposal shows.
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Believe me, this is OLD
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You're not even being subtle about it, holy damn.
Nah man, you're going to go in account with these contradictions of yours. You're saying that the abilities aren't exact replicas of the real counterparts, so by your logic they wouldn't even qualify as these abilities as they're magic, hence they're not supposed to be comparable to the real thing.
You even said that a bark isn't even sound speed because it's magical in a prior comment, come on.
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #45
I guess it's because we need instructions or standards, yes.
My apologies, I had not understood the relation between the verses. Maybe I misformulated it so that's why you didn't understand, but it is rather an altitude issue than a "close to ground" issue. For example, montains: lightning-charged clouds can form close to them (aka close to the ground) because they have enough altitude.
Fourth time I am telling you I dismissed the Appeal to Reality, but it seems you didn't read.
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I mean the standards were ass back then so huh...
But then again I remember Alien X having a discussion rule after a whole Yo-Yo of upgrades and downgrades in succession.
You still didn't explain why they fully function as actual clouds despite the low altitude.
I mean, just saying you're not doing it doesn't mean that it's true
. People denying that they're using a fallacy doesn't stop that from happening, even involuntarily.
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #47
... So? That's not because the magical fire one manipulates isn't an exact replica of real fire that they don't have fire manipulation, for example.
We even have a power and ability called "Magic."
As for the bark, I showed you how it was rather an expression from the soul (I forgot my argument but you can scroll up and find it) than an actual bark, which we have no proof to be since we don't see the dog actually barking.
Once again, attacks in Undertale are magical and come from the soul, inspired on the environment around its users.
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #48
I don't know anything about the verses you gave me as examples so I don't even know about their altitude and stuff. Maybe I will check them if I get interested, but for now I have my eyes locked on Undertale, not Gravity Falls or Pizza Tower.
I did not only do that, I also showed you the misconception you made regarding what Appeal to Reality was and refuted it.I mean, just saying you're not doing it doesn't mean that it's true
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Nah you're just being lazy, I've even posted the exact clips which are barely seconds long each, you're just avoiding anything that debunks your rebuttal.
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Anyway, a last text as this is getting tiring.
The attacks being magical means literally nothing, as basically the assumptions we usually take is that attacks are assumed to be 1:1 to be on par with irl counterparts unless there are hard anti feats/massive contradictions against such. Like in many RPGs the characters use mana/magic for their elemental attacks, yet we just assume these are 1:1 with the real thing because they're visually displayed as such. Like ice attacks are assumed to behave like that due to them being, you know, ice and freezing stuff, despite these being casted with a spell, or your average fire spell, which is assumed to be actual fire due to it burning stuff and dealing fire damage.
As a result, it just makes sense that attacks, regardless of them being magical or not, would be mostly similar, if not outright the same as the irl versions, as otherwise we'd have to destroy almost every verse in existence with the "but it's not realistic because it comes from a character and it's not stated to 100% follow the properties of the irl thing!", due to their attacks coming from a supernatural source like not just magic, but also ki or whatever other energy system, other than authors also not bothering to write whole paragraphs on why the elemental attacks in question are the same with irl ones, as the goal is not to give a science lesson, but to write a cool elemental attack.
You'd have to give actual reasoning to explain why the magical nature of the attack is against it being like the irl counterpart, as I said, like serious contradictions that totally contradicts the nature of the element (that granted if the character doesn't manipulate the thing), or anti feats, as said above.
This is what I was trying to explain all the time.
The attacks being magical means literally nothing, as basically the assumptions we usually take is that attacks are assumed to be 1:1 to be on par with irl counterparts unless there are hard anti feats/massive contradictions against such. Like in many RPGs the characters use mana/magic for their elemental attacks, yet we just assume these are 1:1 with the real thing because they're visually displayed as such. Like ice attacks are assumed to behave like that due to them being, you know, ice and freezing stuff, despite these being casted with a spell, or your average fire spell, which is assumed to be actual fire due to it burning stuff and dealing fire damage.
As a result, it just makes sense that attacks, regardless of them being magical or not, would be mostly similar, if not outright the same as the irl versions, as otherwise we'd have to destroy almost every verse in existence with the "but it's not realistic because it comes from a character and it's not stated to 100% follow the properties of the irl thing!", due to their attacks coming from a supernatural source like not just magic, but also ki or whatever other energy system, other than authors also not bothering to write whole paragraphs on why the elemental attacks in question are the same with irl ones, as the goal is not to give a science lesson, but to write a cool elemental attack.
You'd have to give actual reasoning to explain why the magical nature of the attack is against it being like the irl counterpart, as I said, like serious contradictions that totally contradicts the nature of the element (that granted if the character doesn't manipulate the thing), or anti feats, as said above.
This is what I was trying to explain all the time.
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- First appearance of lightning scaling (2016)
- First downgrade (post has been lost in the forum change) (2019)
- Sound scaling accepted (2019)
- Electricity scaling (2021)
- Lightning brought up (2021)
- MHS reintroduction (2023)
- MHS downgrade (2023)
- MHS re-reintroduction (2024)
- And now this thread
Lightning Standards (2015). Almost the same as today. The topic of UT simply gets revisited throughout the years constantly.
To show the age of these arguments.
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I disagree with the downgrade because of strym’s arguments
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Alright, do I write something like this?
- Do not attempt to downgrade the characters' speeds from their Massively Hypersonic+ ratings, based on the argument that Vulkin's lightning attacks aren't as fast as natural lightning due to them seemingly not behaving as such in movement and shape, and/or monsters' attacks being magic. Monsters in Undertale have showcased to control their magic in order to generate bullet patterns, other than magical attacks having showcased to be comparable to their real-life counterparts, examples being Toriel's fire behaving as such, Papyrus' bones being actual ones, or also Mettaton using electricity from his core thanks to him being a robot, with said electricity also behaving as the real one. Multiple discussions regarding this topic have been made to the point that they've become repetitive and tiresome.
Is the draft ok?
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I can agree with that, though to be noted, mainly admin votes matter for policy changes. So with that said:
@DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000
Can you take a look here?
@DarkDragonMedeus @Firestorm808 @Maverick_Zero_X @LordGriffin1000
Can you take a look here?
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I’m pretty sure Maverick Zero is not active since July
You should’ve also addressed the whole “they don’t behave as real lightning as it is small and cloud is small too” thingy I think.
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Do we? I mean Mettaton's electricity doesn't behave like it either on screen. I'll think of a way to include it.
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Yeah, that was one of the points in my CRT, that whole “monsters manipulate their magic and hence should be able to shape it in a more effective-combat way like shooting them in danmaku-style”.
Something like “Do not attempt to downgrade it due to the attacks not behaving in movement the way they’re supposed to either, as monsters can manipulate their magic so…” and yada-yada-yada.
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Tried this.
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This looks good to me, but better specify that they do not behave as such only in movement/shape, as the whole argument on our side is that they do behave as ones in other aspects.
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Isn't the "Monsters in Undertale have showcased to control their magic in order to generate bullet patterns, other than magical attacks having showcased to be comparable to their real-life counterparts" part enough? If not, how'd you edit it?
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No, this is fine (although maybe add some examples like Toriel shaping her fire to use them like fireballs), what I meant is that you should just add this (added part in bold):
Because having “do not attempt to downgrade because they are not behaving as their irl counter-parts” and “they do behave as their irl counter-parts” at the same time looks bad, which is why I think we should specify that we are talking about movement and shape when talking about “not behaving as they should”. Small change but necessary imo.
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Ok, thanks. I fixed it.
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Disagree FRA
And agree with a discussion rule addition if this has been brought up numerous times to no avail.
And agree with a discussion rule addition if this has been brought up numerous times to no avail.
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #68
Well it seems that pretty much everyone disagrees with the Thread so I've no reason to argue back, mostly due to the fact it was more a suggestion rather than anything.
It's sad to say that knowing my arguments weren't refuted much and that Undertale's note and MHS+ speed still falls under Occam's Razor, but if an admin reads this, they can close this thread, since it won't get accepted nevertheless despite everything.
It's sad to say that knowing my arguments weren't refuted much and that Undertale's note and MHS+ speed still falls under Occam's Razor, but if an admin reads this, they can close this thread, since it won't get accepted nevertheless despite everything.
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It does not go against Occam’s Razor, assuming that if the properties of irl elements are shown for magical attacks, then those attacks should have other properties doesn’t go against OR and goes along with a pure common sense, and assuming that an attack looking like lightning which is implied to cause thunder being lightning-speed is logical and does not go against OR too, and it’s not like Occam’s Razor is a scientific law either.
But, you can believe it being fallacious if you want, lol. I know people who think Uni+ Asriel is fallacious and is a wank, so
But, you can believe it being fallacious if you want, lol. I know people who think Uni+ Asriel is fallacious and is a wank, so
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #70
I mean I did show how it makes logically no sense for magical attacks to have all the properties of IRL elements due to the story with the fog or the soul-coming attacks, but there is no point in continuing if everyone keeps ignoring what I say and disagrees.It does not go against Occam’s Razor, assuming that if the properties of irl elements are shown for magical attacks, then those attacks should have other properties doesn’t go against OR and goes along with a pure common sense, and assuming that an attack looking like lightning which is implied to cause thunder being lightning-speed is logical and does not go against OR too,and it’s not like Occam’s Razor is a scientific law either.
But, you can believe it being fallacious if you want, lol. I know people who think Uni+ Asriel is fallacious and is a wank, so
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You know that... people can read your points and still disagree, right? Hop off that horse.
Requiem_Yoriichi
He/Him- 68
- 18
- Thread starter
- #73
Sure, and I understand and respect that perfectly. Yet the reason for not taking these points isn't logical, due to what I've said.
Regardless, this thread can be closed.
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Boo-hoo-hoo.
Do we need another admin to apply the discussion rule?
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I love how this came out in today's newletter,
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I don't have any arguments against the rule being implemented.
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Well, I suppose we have 3 admin agreements.
Can the rule be applied in the page? And if yes, can this be also used for evidence of Toriel's fire being realistic in the note?
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Yes, should be fine to apply now.
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